Edward Colston/Trans rights/Stamp collecting

david37

What is Rick talking about??? the Romans had epic technology for waging war and controlling distant lands.

Including the building of a network of superb quality roads to enable trade and supply the war effort.

They had central heating

Interestingly Roman technology helped define the design of the space shuttle. I have no idea what no technology means

webboo

rick_chasey said:

blazing_saddles said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Here’s one from that section

Colonialism is a relationship between an indigenous (or forcibly imported) majority and a minority of foreign invaders. The fundamental decisions affecting the lives of the colonised people are made and implemented by the colonial rulers in pursuit of interests that are often defined in a distant metropolis. Rejecting cultural compromises with the colonised population, the colonisers are convinced of their own superiority and their ordained mandate to rule.

Thank you for agreeing with me.
Or are you claiming Genghis Khan did not do the above?

Not following this entirely, it's clearly just a woke-fest as usual, there's only wokes on BR.

But is this a "Genghis Khan wasn't so bad" take or a "British Empire wasn't ideal" take?

It's a take that colonisation didn't exist until the Europeans started doing it in the 15th century is clearly nonsense.

Not in the form readily understood by the term.

Since I am not sure everybody follows, could you explain the differences in say Roman Empire and what is "readily understood by the term," to the uninitiated?

Well the Romans had a very different approach to running their empire. Read up on it if you’re interested. But there was much more listening to subjects and incorporating them and their cultures - taking on their pagan festivals and incorporating them into Roman Christianity for example.

The word colony or colonialism its current usage did t really come into existence until the 15th-16th century and is synonymous with the European empties from 16th-20th C.

It’s quite different in that the way in which Europeans ran their empire destroying entire social structures, from power structure to culture to language to faith.

They obliterated the local way of doing things to the point that when the locals finally got freedom, they knew only how to live within the structure the Europeans left.

That was not how the Romans operated; the technological means were not available.

For sure, countries invading other countries and being nasty to the locals has gone on forever - it’s still horrendous it happens. I don’t really understand why it gets brought up when people defend the empire.

I’ve made the point here that Nazi Germany took the logic of colonialism and imported it into Europe. I don’t think anyone here would defend what they did, but somehow the Empire is different because it happened in Africa and Asia.

Maybe you need to read Caesar’s Gallic wars. Whole populations sold in to slavery, all the males in a tribe having their arm cut off. The Romans were all about do what we want or we will obliterate you.

ilovegrace

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

Just found the thread so have not been involved in what can only be described as an "interesting thread"
What I would like everyone to consider is this ,
Given that Bikeradar is a fairly wide representation of Britain , each one of us has to ask our self "am I a racist " yes or no.
I would guess the "yes" answer would be very very rare ,if at all .
So we have to ask ourselves (or at least the people who do not believe the report) ,
If we are a racist country ,"where/who are these racists "?

To he who only has a hammer everything is a nail.

From surveys 20-25% of the population openly admit to being racist. Bikeradar is not remotely representative of the country on many measures. We all ride bikes for a start.

Sorry , dont believe it , show me the official survey and I will have to reconsider my theory.

veronese68

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

Just found the thread so have not been involved in what can only be described as an "interesting thread"
What I would like everyone to consider is this ,
Given that Bikeradar is a fairly wide representation of Britain , each one of us has to ask our self "am I a racist " yes or no.
I would guess the "yes" answer would be very very rare ,if at all .
So we have to ask ourselves (or at least the people who do not believe the report) ,
If we are a racist country ,"where/who are these racists "?

To he who only has a hammer everything is a nail.

From surveys 20-25% of the population openly admit to being racist. Bikeradar is not remotely representative of the country on many measures. We all ride bikes for a start.

Sorry , dont believe it , show me the official survey and I will have to reconsider my theory.

I vaguely recall reading something where when answering a survey anonymously lots of people admitted to a degree of racism, but if asked openly they would deny it vehemently. This isn't"I'm not racist but..." types, more your average person. Can't remember the figures but remember being shocked by it.

Stevo_666

david37 said:

What is Rick talking about??? the Romans had epic technology for waging war and controlling distant lands.

Including the building of a network of superb quality roads to enable trade and supply the war effort.

They had central heating

Interestingly Roman technology helped define the design of the space shuttle. I have no idea what no technology means

I'm also not sure that Rick appreciates that the colonisers can bring benefits to their colonies.

For some reason, this springs to mind when I read his recent posts:

https://youtu.be/Qc7HmhrgTuQ

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

Just found the thread so have not been involved in what can only be described as an "interesting thread"
What I would like everyone to consider is this ,
Given that Bikeradar is a fairly wide representation of Britain , each one of us has to ask our self "am I a racist " yes or no.
I would guess the "yes" answer would be very very rare ,if at all .
So we have to ask ourselves (or at least the people who do not believe the report) ,
If we are a racist country ,"where/who are these racists "?

To he who only has a hammer everything is a nail.

From surveys 20-25% of the population openly admit to being racist. Bikeradar is not remotely representative of the country on many measures. We all ride bikes for a start.

Link to these surveys please RJS.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Here’s one from that section

Colonialism is a relationship between an indigenous (or forcibly imported) majority and a minority of foreign invaders. The fundamental decisions affecting the lives of the colonised people are made and implemented by the colonial rulers in pursuit of interests that are often defined in a distant metropolis. Rejecting cultural compromises with the colonised population, the colonisers are convinced of their own superiority and their ordained mandate to rule.

Thank you for agreeing with me.
Or are you claiming Genghis Khan did not do the above?

Not following this entirely, it's clearly just a woke-fest as usual, there's only wokes on BR.

But is this a "Genghis Khan wasn't so bad" take or a "British Empire wasn't ideal" take?

It's a take that colonisation didn't exist until the Europeans started doing it in the 15th century is clearly nonsense.

You don't think that there might be a difference in the scale of economic extraction under these empires?

So colonisation of Africa wasn't the same as say Rome colonising Britain. It's still a stretch to say both weren't colonisation - Britain was effectively ruled by Rome and they did extract slaves and raw materials. They even called their outposts Colonia.

I don't see why there should be resistance to other things being called colonisation but for one period of history where European powers exploited Africa.

I wasn't aware there was resistance to referring to earlier instances of colonisation. The key point is that the the early modern European colonisation of Africa, the Americas, South and South East Asia is the bit where we are still dealing with its legacies.

Which current day problems outside of Africa and the middle east do you think are a legacy of European colonialism? I can't think of any in SE Asia. Kashmir is an example, but at some point bothnuclear parties need to accept some responsibility. I can't think of much in the Americas although blame the US for its own problems.

Meanwhile, East Asia still has lots of issues associated with Japanese colonialism.

rjsterry

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

Just found the thread so have not been involved in what can only be described as an "interesting thread"
What I would like everyone to consider is this ,
Given that Bikeradar is a fairly wide representation of Britain , each one of us has to ask our self "am I a racist " yes or no.
I would guess the "yes" answer would be very very rare ,if at all .
So we have to ask ourselves (or at least the people who do not believe the report) ,
If we are a racist country ,"where/who are these racists "?

To he who only has a hammer everything is a nail.

From surveys 20-25% of the population openly admit to being racist. Bikeradar is not remotely representative of the country on many measures. We all ride bikes for a start.

Sorry , dont believe it , show me the official survey and I will have to reconsider my theory.

Here you go.

https://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/racial-prejudice-in-britain-today/

https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/38110/selfreported-racial-prejudice-datafinal.pdf

I've posted these a few times before. Turns out my memory was slightly under the 26% in the last survey.

It's a bit like the Women's safety thread. Everyone swears they'd never dream of doing such a thing nor knows anyone who would and yet somehow the place is awash with it.

You might have heard the other day that someone felt comfortable phoning up a national radio station and telling the presenter live on air that he couldn't be English because he wasn't white.

rjsterry

Some more data here on racist incidents reported by the police.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/624093/racist-incidents-in-england-and-wales-2009-2018/

rjsterry

And more recent figures here.

https://theconversation.com/how-racist-is-britain-today-what-the-evidence-tells-us-141657

Tl;dr

In 2019, 19% agreed that some ethnic groups were born less intelligent and 38% agreed that some ethnic groups are born less hard-working.

john80

veronese68 said:

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

Just found the thread so have not been involved in what can only be described as an "interesting thread"
What I would like everyone to consider is this ,
Given that Bikeradar is a fairly wide representation of Britain , each one of us has to ask our self "am I a racist " yes or no.
I would guess the "yes" answer would be very very rare ,if at all .
So we have to ask ourselves (or at least the people who do not believe the report) ,
If we are a racist country ,"where/who are these racists "?

To he who only has a hammer everything is a nail.

From surveys 20-25% of the population openly admit to being racist. Bikeradar is not remotely representative of the country on many measures. We all ride bikes for a start.

Sorry , dont believe it , show me the official survey and I will have to reconsider my theory.

I vaguely recall reading something where when answering a survey anonymously lots of people admitted to a degree of racism, but if asked openly they would deny it vehemently. This isn't"I'm not racist but..." types, more your average person. Can't remember the figures but remember being shocked by it.

The majority of drivers think they are better than average so go figure.

pblakeney

john80 said:

veronese68 said:

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

Just found the thread so have not been involved in what can only be described as an "interesting thread"
What I would like everyone to consider is this ,
Given that Bikeradar is a fairly wide representation of Britain , each one of us has to ask our self "am I a racist " yes or no.
I would guess the "yes" answer would be very very rare ,if at all .
So we have to ask ourselves (or at least the people who do not believe the report) ,
If we are a racist country ,"where/who are these racists "?

To he who only has a hammer everything is a nail.

From surveys 20-25% of the population openly admit to being racist. Bikeradar is not remotely representative of the country on many measures. We all ride bikes for a start.

Sorry , dont believe it , show me the official survey and I will have to reconsider my theory.

I vaguely recall reading something where when answering a survey anonymously lots of people admitted to a degree of racism, but if asked openly they would deny it vehemently. This isn't"I'm not racist but..." types, more your average person. Can't remember the figures but remember being shocked by it.

The majority of drivers think they are better than average so go figure.

Half of all drivers are better than average though.

ilovegrace

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

Just found the thread so have not been involved in what can only be described as an "interesting thread"
What I would like everyone to consider is this ,
Given that Bikeradar is a fairly wide representation of Britain , each one of us has to ask our self "am I a racist " yes or no.
I would guess the "yes" answer would be very very rare ,if at all .
So we have to ask ourselves (or at least the people who do not believe the report) ,
If we are a racist country ,"where/who are these racists "?

To he who only has a hammer everything is a nail.

From surveys 20-25% of the population openly admit to being racist. Bikeradar is not remotely representative of the country on many measures. We all ride bikes for a start.

Sorry , dont believe it , show me the official survey and I will have to reconsider my theory.

Here you go.

https://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/racial-prejudice-in-britain-today/

https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/38110/selfreported-racial-prejudice-datafinal.pdf

I've posted these a few times before. Turns out my memory was slightly under the 26% in the last survey.

It's a bit like the Women's safety thread. Everyone swears they'd never dream of doing such a thing nor knows anyone who would and yet somehow the place is awash with it.

You might have heard the other day that someone felt comfortable phoning up a national radio station and telling the presenter live on air that he couldn't be English because he wasn't white.

Referring to the surveys you quote I think you are confusing prejudice and racism they are not the same thing.
To he who only owns a hammer everything is a nail.

pinkbikini

I’ve been to two conferences (years ago) where each time they used the driver skill question to demonstrate bias. Each time, over 80% were better drivers than average.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

Just found the thread so have not been involved in what can only be described as an "interesting thread"
What I would like everyone to consider is this ,
Given that Bikeradar is a fairly wide representation of Britain , each one of us has to ask our self "am I a racist " yes or no.
I would guess the "yes" answer would be very very rare ,if at all .
So we have to ask ourselves (or at least the people who do not believe the report) ,
If we are a racist country ,"where/who are these racists "?

To he who only has a hammer everything is a nail.

From surveys 20-25% of the population openly admit to being racist. Bikeradar is not remotely representative of the country on many measures. We all ride bikes for a start.

Sorry , dont believe it , show me the official survey and I will have to reconsider my theory.

Here you go.

https://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/racial-prejudice-in-britain-today/

https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/38110/selfreported-racial-prejudice-datafinal.pdf

I've posted these a few times before. Turns out my memory was slightly under the 26% in the last survey.

It's a bit like the Women's safety thread. Everyone swears they'd never dream of doing such a thing nor knows anyone who would and yet somehow the place is awash with it.

You might have heard the other day that someone felt comfortable phoning up a national radio station and telling the presenter live on air that he couldn't be English because he wasn't white.

Surprising. Where are all these people?

pinkbikini

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

Just found the thread so have not been involved in what can only be described as an "interesting thread"
What I would like everyone to consider is this ,
Given that Bikeradar is a fairly wide representation of Britain , each one of us has to ask our self "am I a racist " yes or no.
I would guess the "yes" answer would be very very rare ,if at all .
So we have to ask ourselves (or at least the people who do not believe the report) ,
If we are a racist country ,"where/who are these racists "?

To he who only has a hammer everything is a nail.

From surveys 20-25% of the population openly admit to being racist. Bikeradar is not remotely representative of the country on many measures. We all ride bikes for a start.

Sorry , dont believe it , show me the official survey and I will have to reconsider my theory.

Here you go.

https://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/racial-prejudice-in-britain-today/

https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/38110/selfreported-racial-prejudice-datafinal.pdf

I've posted these a few times before. Turns out my memory was slightly under the 26% in the last survey.

It's a bit like the Women's safety thread. Everyone swears they'd never dream of doing such a thing nor knows anyone who would and yet somehow the place is awash with it.

You might have heard the other day that someone felt comfortable phoning up a national radio station and telling the presenter live on air that he couldn't be English because he wasn't white.

Referring to the surveys you quote I think you are confusing prejudice and racism they are not the same thing.
To he who only owns a hammer everything is a nail.

Having read the reports, how would you define the difference then? At what point does prejudice against a different race become racism?

rjsterry

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

Just found the thread so have not been involved in what can only be described as an "interesting thread"
What I would like everyone to consider is this ,
Given that Bikeradar is a fairly wide representation of Britain , each one of us has to ask our self "am I a racist " yes or no.
I would guess the "yes" answer would be very very rare ,if at all .
So we have to ask ourselves (or at least the people who do not believe the report) ,
If we are a racist country ,"where/who are these racists "?

To he who only has a hammer everything is a nail.

From surveys 20-25% of the population openly admit to being racist. Bikeradar is not remotely representative of the country on many measures. We all ride bikes for a start.

Sorry , dont believe it , show me the official survey and I will have to reconsider my theory.

Here you go.

https://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/racial-prejudice-in-britain-today/

https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/38110/selfreported-racial-prejudice-datafinal.pdf

I've posted these a few times before. Turns out my memory was slightly under the 26% in the last survey.

It's a bit like the Women's safety thread. Everyone swears they'd never dream of doing such a thing nor knows anyone who would and yet somehow the place is awash with it.

You might have heard the other day that someone felt comfortable phoning up a national radio station and telling the presenter live on air that he couldn't be English because he wasn't white.

Referring to the surveys you quote I think you are confusing prejudice and racism they are not the same thing.
To he who only owns a hammer everything is a nail.

I think you are trying to find a way out. Hey, I wish it was less, too.

And that expression is so stupid: hammers are definitely not only for hitting nails 😏

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

Just found the thread so have not been involved in what can only be described as an "interesting thread"
What I would like everyone to consider is this ,
Given that Bikeradar is a fairly wide representation of Britain , each one of us has to ask our self "am I a racist " yes or no.
I would guess the "yes" answer would be very very rare ,if at all .
So we have to ask ourselves (or at least the people who do not believe the report) ,
If we are a racist country ,"where/who are these racists "?

To he who only has a hammer everything is a nail.

From surveys 20-25% of the population openly admit to being racist. Bikeradar is not remotely representative of the country on many measures. We all ride bikes for a start.

Sorry , dont believe it , show me the official survey and I will have to reconsider my theory.

Here you go.

https://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/racial-prejudice-in-britain-today/

https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/38110/selfreported-racial-prejudice-datafinal.pdf

I've posted these a few times before. Turns out my memory was slightly under the 26% in the last survey.

It's a bit like the Women's safety thread. Everyone swears they'd never dream of doing such a thing nor knows anyone who would and yet somehow the place is awash with it.

You might have heard the other day that someone felt comfortable phoning up a national radio station and telling the presenter live on air that he couldn't be English because he wasn't white.

Surprising. Where are all these people?

And sad. I think people are more honest when they know they are anonymous.

elbowloh

ilovegrace said:

Referring to the surveys you quote I think you are confusing prejudice and racism they are not the same thing.

It literally is the same thing

ilovegrace

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

Just found the thread so have not been involved in what can only be described as an "interesting thread"
What I would like everyone to consider is this ,
Given that Bikeradar is a fairly wide representation of Britain , each one of us has to ask our self "am I a racist " yes or no.
I would guess the "yes" answer would be very very rare ,if at all .
So we have to ask ourselves (or at least the people who do not believe the report) ,
If we are a racist country ,"where/who are these racists "?

To he who only has a hammer everything is a nail.

From surveys 20-25% of the population openly admit to being racist. Bikeradar is not remotely representative of the country on many measures. We all ride bikes for a start.

Sorry , dont believe it , show me the official survey and I will have to reconsider my theory.

Here you go.

https://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/racial-prejudice-in-britain-today/

https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/38110/selfreported-racial-prejudice-datafinal.pdf

I've posted these a few times before. Turns out my memory was slightly under the 26% in the last survey.

It's a bit like the Women's safety thread. Everyone swears they'd never dream of doing such a thing nor knows anyone who would and yet somehow the place is awash with it.

You might have heard the other day that someone felt comfortable phoning up a national radio station and telling the presenter live on air that he couldn't be English because he wasn't white.

Referring to the surveys you quote I think you are confusing prejudice and racism they are not the same thing.
To he who only owns a hammer everything is a nail.

I think you are trying to find a way out. Hey, I wish it was less, too.

And that expression is so stupid: hammers are definitely not only for hitting nails 😏

Prejudice can be understood as an opinion of another individual that holds no logic or reasoning. Racism, on the other hand, refers to discrimination of races, considering some as superior to others. This highlights that Prejudice and Racism cannot be considered as the same, even though there is a link between the two.
www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-prejudice-and-vs-racism

"And that expression is so stupid: hammers are definitely not only for hitting nails"
Oh dear you do not understand “Maslow’s hammer”,

veronese68

Racism is prejudice based on race, you can have other prejudices I know. But, racism is prejudice.

pinkbikini

Clever bit of tautological twisting to try to deny evidence that was requested. To my mind racial prejudice is racism - the outcome is so similar. But even if not, the report indicates that overall c.25% admit to some racial prejudice. Which shows the extent of the problem.

Oh, and the BikeRadar forum is not remotely representative of the British population. Anyone who thinks so needs to get out a bit more (on their bike, preferably).

ilovegrace

pinkbikini said:

Clever bit of tautological twisting to try to deny evidence that was requested. To my mind racial prejudice is racism - the outcome is so similar. But even if not, the report indicates that overall c.25% admit to some racial prejudice. Which shows the extent of the problem.

Oh, and the BikeRadar forum is not remotely representative of the British population. Anyone who thinks so needs to get out a bit more (on their bike, preferably).

So what is your point , we have just had a report broadly stating we are NOT a racist country and a survey according to your reckoning 26% of the country are racist.
You are right I should get out more .

rick_chasey

@tailwindhome enjoy

https://twitter.com/aylwyn_scally/status/1378383982514089984?s=21

DeVlaeminck

A stat that says 25% of people admit to some degree of racism or prejudice isn't really shocking without further context. Plenty of people would argue nobody is really totally non-racist - we all favour people similar to ourselves even subconsciously.

I'd rather see concrete hypotheticals such as how happy would you be if your son/daughter was dating someone who is black/white/muslim/Jewish etc

Pross

Edit lost my thread

rjsterry

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

rjsterry said:

ilovegrace said:

Just found the thread so have not been involved in what can only be described as an "interesting thread"
What I would like everyone to consider is this ,
Given that Bikeradar is a fairly wide representation of Britain , each one of us has to ask our self "am I a racist " yes or no.
I would guess the "yes" answer would be very very rare ,if at all .
So we have to ask ourselves (or at least the people who do not believe the report) ,
If we are a racist country ,"where/who are these racists "?

To he who only has a hammer everything is a nail.

From surveys 20-25% of the population openly admit to being racist. Bikeradar is not remotely representative of the country on many measures. We all ride bikes for a start.

Sorry , dont believe it , show me the official survey and I will have to reconsider my theory.

Here you go.

https://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/racial-prejudice-in-britain-today/

https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/38110/selfreported-racial-prejudice-datafinal.pdf

I've posted these a few times before. Turns out my memory was slightly under the 26% in the last survey.

It's a bit like the Women's safety thread. Everyone swears they'd never dream of doing such a thing nor knows anyone who would and yet somehow the place is awash with it.

You might have heard the other day that someone felt comfortable phoning up a national radio station and telling the presenter live on air that he couldn't be English because he wasn't white.

Referring to the surveys you quote I think you are confusing prejudice and racism they are not the same thing.
To he who only owns a hammer everything is a nail.

I think you are trying to find a way out. Hey, I wish it was less, too.

And that expression is so stupid: hammers are definitely not only for hitting nails 😏

Prejudice can be understood as an opinion of another individual that holds no logic or reasoning. Racism, on the other hand, refers to discrimination of races, considering some as superior to others. This highlights that Prejudice and Racism cannot be considered as the same, even though there is a link between the two.
www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-prejudice-and-vs-racism

"And that expression is so stupid: hammers are definitely not only for hitting nails"
Oh dear you do not understand “Maslow’s hammer”,

If you want to pretend those surveys are not about racism, don't let me stop you. I'm perfectly aware of the meaning of Maslow's Hammer, l just think it's not appropriate here and is a poor metaphor.

elbowloh

I don't understand why someone would want to go through all this mental and linguistic gymnastics to deny that racism is a form of prejudice. Discrimination is just one of the ways through which that prejudice is displayed.

blazing_saddles

veronese68 said:

Racism is prejudice based on race, you can have other prejudices I know. But, racism is prejudice.

So, as black folks are also quite often prejudice against whites, does that make them racist?

elbowloh

blazing_saddles said:

veronese68 said:

Racism is prejudice based on race, you can have other prejudices I know. But, racism is prejudice.

So, as black folks are also quite often prejudice against whites, does that make them racist?

Yes, of course.

Not sure why you would need to ask this?