Pro cyclists are overrated?

zest28

Pross said:

Thought the Ineos Race worked quite well. Everyone on the same kit albeit some handicapped by being at altitude. Commentary was pretty good fun and the switch to real life webcams helped. I wouldn't want to watch it regularly but as a bit of fun in the current circumstances 45 minutes featuring riders from all WT teams once a week would be OK.

Of course, following the OP's rationale we now know that Dennis is a far better climber than Froome or Bernal and should therefore be the Ineos leader at next year's Tour.

Somehow my post did not show up. So hereby again. Rouvy did not simulate drafting so ofcourse time trail specialists will win. (I actually find no drafting to be more fair as the strongest overall athlete will win like it should)

And it is very likely that Dennis in his current form is indeed better than his teammates due to the fact that he was peaking by winning the world championships not too long ago and he most likely was trying to hang on to his world championship winning form for the 2020 olympics. His teammates who were preparing for the Tour De France are not in peak form so early, they would wait till the TdF to be in top form.

Also note that team Ineos riders are not climbing specialists. Geraint Thomas is one of the best time trialist himself next to Dennis. Chris Froome is also a very strong in the time trial himself. They are typically “all-rounders”.

And don’t underestimate time trail specialists in climbs. Tom DuMoulin who is a time trail specialist has won the Giro with huge climbs. And Tom did it without any help of his teammates as Tom was too fast for his own team.

bobmcstuff

I am quite enjoying the Zwift racing. The closest I have got to racing IRL is fast chaingangs and hill climbs/TT, the beauty of racing in Zwift is the really low barrier to entry - you just hop on the bike and go. Also less chance to crash...

I've found the hill climb/TT part to be really quite realistic - pacing is just as important as in real life, the kit you're using makes a significant difference, and it is just as satisfying trying to improve your times on a set course each week.

The racing is totally mental. A lot of them are very short and therefore bonkers the whole 15-20 mins, my experience is there's no real room for tactics in those cases because I am too busy trying not to black out (doesn't help that I have basically the worst stats to be in my category).

Longer races are a bit different - I did a 50-55 minute one yesterday for example and that was a lot more satisfying, really hard for the first part until it settles down, then find a group to work with (Zwift has drafting etc - and some races have a double draft effect which makes group working really vital). It was also a handicap race so we were working to keep away from the group coming up behind, and to catch the groups ahead, which I have done previously in chaingangs outdoors and I really enjoy since it gives you something to work for when winning is out of the question (as it always will be for me I suspect, except maybe in some weird cases).

Best workouts I have had since I was doing chaingangs regularly, by far - this past few weeks I have set multiple all-time power PBs.

So in summary: is it racing? Definitely. Is it the same as racing outdoors? Definitely not, but it's not pretending to be either. It's a videogame powered by your legs. If that works for you, it's probably the best fun you can have on a turbo trainer, but if not, you're probably best trying something else. I know a few guys in the club have gone to RGT because they like essentially watching videos of real climbs while on the turbo - that doesn't really do it for me, but each to his own and all that.

bobmcstuff

Oh and I've lost nearly 4kg now since mid-March.

rick_chasey

zest28 said:

Pross said:

Thought the Ineos Race worked quite well. Everyone on the same kit albeit some handicapped by being at altitude. Commentary was pretty good fun and the switch to real life webcams helped. I wouldn't want to watch it regularly but as a bit of fun in the current circumstances 45 minutes featuring riders from all WT teams once a week would be OK.

Of course, following the OP's rationale we now know that Dennis is a far better climber than Froome or Bernal and should therefore be the Ineos leader at next year's Tour.

What that virtual race showed is (Rouvy is a very bad platform as it does not simulate drafting), that if drafting does not exist, time trial specialists will win as they are the fastest pro cyclists. If every stage of a tour had to be performed solo (so no drafting), Dennis would indeed beat Bernal.

It does make you wonder how much of a sport pro cycling actually is, when you are being helped the vast majority of time by the work of other people as a result of drafting.

In iron man, drafting is illegal so the best athlete does really win.

This is a better effort than your original post.

Bolded bit especially. Wonderful.

Gets right to the heart of why procycling has been a popular sport for a century and why other endurance sports never are.

8/10.

Challenge for you now is not to overcook the souflé.

pblakeney

The clue here is it being a team sport, not an individual TT.
Which takes us to the next question.
Why is it always pro cyclists that win the World ITT?

No_Ta_Doctor

rick_chasey said:

zest28 said:

Pross said:

Thought the Ineos Race worked quite well. Everyone on the same kit albeit some handicapped by being at altitude. Commentary was pretty good fun and the switch to real life webcams helped. I wouldn't want to watch it regularly but as a bit of fun in the current circumstances 45 minutes featuring riders from all WT teams once a week would be OK.

Of course, following the OP's rationale we now know that Dennis is a far better climber than Froome or Bernal and should therefore be the Ineos leader at next year's Tour.

What that virtual race showed is (Rouvy is a very bad platform as it does not simulate drafting), that if drafting does not exist, time trial specialists will win as they are the fastest pro cyclists. If every stage of a tour had to be performed solo (so no drafting), Dennis would indeed beat Bernal.

It does make you wonder how much of a sport pro cycling actually is, when you are being helped the vast majority of time by the work of other people as a result of drafting.

In iron man, drafting is illegal so the best athlete does really win.

This is a better effort than your original post.

Bolded bit especially. Wonderful.

Gets right to the heart of why procycling has been a popular sport for a century and why other endurance sports never are.

8/10.

Challenge for you now is not to overcook the souflé.

Yep. If the tactical and strategic minimisation of effort for maximisation of reward were removed the sport would be dull as dishwater. There's a reason it's known as "chess on two wheels".

gweeds

zest28 said:

Pross said:

Thought the Ineos Race worked quite well. Everyone on the same kit albeit some handicapped by being at altitude. Commentary was pretty good fun and the switch to real life webcams helped. I wouldn't want to watch it regularly but as a bit of fun in the current circumstances 45 minutes featuring riders from all WT teams once a week would be OK.

Of course, following the OP's rationale we now know that Dennis is a far better climber than Froome or Bernal and should therefore be the Ineos leader at next year's Tour.

Somehow my post did not show up. So hereby again. Rouvy did not simulate drafting so ofcourse time trail specialists will win. (I actually find no drafting to be more fair as the strongest overall athlete will win like it should)

And it is very likely that Dennis in his current form is indeed better than his teammates due to the fact that he was peaking by winning the world championships not too long ago and he most likely was trying to hang on to his world championship winning form for the 2020 olympics. His teammates who were preparing for the Tour De France are not in peak form so early, they would wait till the TdF to be in top form.

Also note that team Ineos riders are not climbing specialists. Geraint Thomas is one of the best time trialist himself next to Dennis. Chris Froome is also a very strong in the time trial himself. They are typically “all-rounders”.

And don’t underestimate time trail specialists in climbs. Tom DuMoulin who is a time trail specialist has won the Giro with huge climbs. And Tom did it without any help of his teammates as Tom was too fast for his own team.

You do realise that pretty much everyone who posts in this thread is highly knowledgeable about pro cycling?

As for your comments about it not being a sport. Have a word.

Pross

gweeds said:

zest28 said:

Pross said:

Thought the Ineos Race worked quite well. Everyone on the same kit albeit some handicapped by being at altitude. Commentary was pretty good fun and the switch to real life webcams helped. I wouldn't want to watch it regularly but as a bit of fun in the current circumstances 45 minutes featuring riders from all WT teams once a week would be OK.

Of course, following the OP's rationale we now know that Dennis is a far better climber than Froome or Bernal and should therefore be the Ineos leader at next year's Tour.

Somehow my post did not show up. So hereby again. Rouvy did not simulate drafting so ofcourse time trail specialists will win. (I actually find no drafting to be more fair as the strongest overall athlete will win like it should)

And it is very likely that Dennis in his current form is indeed better than his teammates due to the fact that he was peaking by winning the world championships not too long ago and he most likely was trying to hang on to his world championship winning form for the 2020 olympics. His teammates who were preparing for the Tour De France are not in peak form so early, they would wait till the TdF to be in top form.

Also note that team Ineos riders are not climbing specialists. Geraint Thomas is one of the best time trialist himself next to Dennis. Chris Froome is also a very strong in the time trial himself. They are typically “all-rounders”.

And don’t underestimate time trail specialists in climbs. Tom DuMoulin who is a time trail specialist has won the Giro with huge climbs. And Tom did it without any help of his teammates as Tom was too fast for his own team.

You do realise that pretty much everyone who posts in this thread is highly knowledgeable about pro cycling?

As for your comments about it not being a sport. Have a word.

Come on it's the second worst effort at trolling seen on this site after the OP. Even the annual doping trolls aren't as blatant as this Muppet.

Dorset_Boy

Watching the Tour for All races on Zwift (Eurosport) atm. Lead men just gone up the Innsbruck leg breaker all around 10 w/kg! That's good sprint wattage for most normal folks.

Good finish to the ladies race earlier.

bobmcstuff

Yeah I am watching too, I commented on the Digital Suisse thread. We could make a thread specifically for it? I didn't bother as I thought I might be the only one watching it...

It's been pretty watchable tbh.

bobmcstuff

Interesting finish there, I don't think van der Poel has quite figured this Zwift sprinting yet, I thought he should have won easily.

Dorset_Boy

15 wkg in the sprint and they aren't the very top sprinters!
Mind you they only averaged 4.7 - 5.1 wkg for the race.

bobmcstuff

I think tomorrow could be quite punchy - I really like that Richmond course, those two KOMs back to back are a killer. I expect it to break up a lot more.

bobmcstuff

Dorset_Boy said:

15 wkg in the sprint and they aren't the very top sprinters!
Mind you they only averaged 4.7 - 5.1 wkg for the race.

Yeah, the women's looked harder fought to me. Apart from that small climb, nobody could have been going easy there as they were all doing 700-900 watts up it!

Dorset_Boy

bobmcstuff said:

I think tomorrow could be quite punchy - I really like that Richmond course, those two KOMs back to back are a killer. I expect it to break up a lot more.

I hate those climbs at the back end of Richmond, the only Zwift climbs (apart from the final slog to the Radio Tower) I really hate! They just don't suit me at all.

bobmcstuff

Yeah, I mean, I'm hardly a good climber, but I like the course. I'm much better at longer efforts than shorter ones like that, something I need to work on I've found.

I'm doing the stage 1 myself later, but the group ride and in B group (so a slightly shorter course) - I am supposed to be having a recovery week... But I hear the group rides can be just as nuts as the races. Doing it with a mate so we've agreed to go steady, see what happens with that!

Dorset_Boy

bobmcstuff said:

Yeah, I mean, I'm hardly a good climber, but I like the course. I'm much better at longer efforts than shorter ones like that, something I need to work on I've found.

I'm doing the stage 1 myself later, but the group ride and in B group (so a slightly shorter course) - I am supposed to be having a recovery week... But I hear the group rides can be just as nuts as the races. Doing it with a mate so we've agreed to go steady, see what happens with that!

I'm right at the bottom of the A's, and tend to do the group rides rather than the races. Up front they are just as hard and fast as most races! Nuts out the gate to get to the front and then 4+ wkg for the duration!

bobmcstuff

I'm right at the bottom of the Bs...

The group ride was actually OK, fairly easy for me with a kick at the end - was meant to be all abilities. Think my mate nearly died though.

It was nice to be able to get going without smashing myself in, usually in races I am so fecked after the first 5 mins it's all I can do to keep the pedals turning.

Enjoyed the Hare and Hounds races though, and the TTs. Both have other goals than actually winning...