Pro cyclists are overrated?

kingstongraham

Depends on the length of the race, but yes, I agree. There should be limits that just cause your power to disappear like happened to de gendt.

w00dster

I’m a B, but recently (since lockdown), the B races have been ridiculous. 28 mins at 4.5 W/kg. I’m 69kgs and an FTP of 271, but trying to hang on to the Bs was impossible. I did the Innsbruck race (not the hilly one, just the town with the one or two hills).
I decided no way was I going to race as a B again so entered a C. First 3 minutes at 350 watts, then eased to 3.9 to 4.1 W/kg. Finished in 15th place, averaged 4.1 W/kg and an average of 282 watts for 32 mins.
I also think there is something wrong with my drafting, I don’t seem to get the benefits others get, so in a group I’m still putting out high watts just to stay in the pack.

danx

This isn't unique to zwift. I used to race grassroots mtb about 20 years ago and the top 10 novice/fun riders at any race would post lap times that would put them in the top 1/4 of the sport race.
Same thing when I used to do martial arts and guys I recognised from other clubs who were black belts would suddenly become coloured belts when they turned up at tournaments.
Competition attracts cheaters.. just how it is.

bobmcstuff

Thing is Zwift holds quite a lot of data about its users so there is no excuse for the system to be quite as bad as it is, which is really the issue for me. Even some active DQs during the race itself would be an improvement.

I think a lot of these people probably aren't that invested in this so any hurdles you can put in at all would make a difference (since currently there are none). Like stopping you entering a lower category if you've exceeded the criteria in recent previous races. Obviously you could keep creating new accounts if you were really committed to being an asshat, but that would cut out a lot of them. And you could police that quite easily as well.

Like I said though, apparently they are changing the race category system.

Wheelspinner

bobmcstuff said:

Thing is Zwift holds quite a lot of data about its users so there is no excuse for the system to be quite as bad as it is, which is really the issue for me. Even some active DQs during the race itself would be an improvement.

I think a lot of these people probably aren't that invested in this so any hurdles you can put in at all would make a difference (since currently there are none). Like stopping you entering a lower category if you've exceeded the criteria in recent previous races. Obviously you could keep creating new accounts if you were really committed to being an asshat, but that would cut out a lot of them. And you could police that quite easily as well.

Like I said though, apparently they are changing the race category system.

At the moment, I’d guess the owners of Zwift are too busy trying to keep track of how much money is being shovelled at them from new subscribers to bother with details like keeping a few whingers happy with the category system.

ugo.santalucia

Pross said:

I came 51st out of 75 in my first race last week on the Zwiftpower results for Crit City. I raced in Cat C and average about 2.9w/kg for the 25 minutes which is around my FTP. The winners were up at over 4 w/kg. My time would have got me 6th in Cat D though you obviously can't work out what would have really happened. I'm doing a hilly one tomorrow so my weight will be more of a handicap and I'm going to drop down to D for that.

Haven't tried measuring an FTP in a while... right now I am doing daily 90 minute rides at 190-200 Watt average (2.7-2.8 W/kg), the weighted average is a bit higher (2.9-3.1 W/kg), but I don't know how reliable that number is.
My best estimate is an FTP around 230 W, so 3.3 W/kg.
All those numbers might be underestimated, as I recall on a Wattbike I consistently had a 46/54 inbalance and my Stages measures the less powerful left leg.

I don't think I'd be any good at racing, virtual or real... FTP is not something of any use in racing

sherer

This is where these platforms need to be better. They know my stats, so I want to ride with others at my level. Why have categories, who not do a test and have Zwift or other platforms do it for you.

As you stats go up you can move to the next group.

Pross

To be fair, Zwift aren't really aiming at racing their platform is just getting used for that purpose. Zwiftpower seems to deal with suspect performances pretty quickly, they're a bit OTT if anything and women in particular seem to get DQd when they shouldn't.

bobmcstuff

Wheelspinner said:

bobmcstuff said:

Thing is Zwift holds quite a lot of data about its users so there is no excuse for the system to be quite as bad as it is, which is really the issue for me. Even some active DQs during the race itself would be an improvement.

I think a lot of these people probably aren't that invested in this so any hurdles you can put in at all would make a difference (since currently there are none). Like stopping you entering a lower category if you've exceeded the criteria in recent previous races. Obviously you could keep creating new accounts if you were really committed to being an asshat, but that would cut out a lot of them. And you could police that quite easily as well.

Like I said though, apparently they are changing the race category system.

At the moment, I’d guess the owners of Zwift are too busy trying to keep track of how much money is being shovelled at them from new subscribers to bother with details like keeping a few whingers happy with the category system.

Yeah except they've already announced its going to be changed.

They've already listened to user complaints about overcrowding by opening up 3 worlds at a time, although I don't really understand why they can't have them all open all the time (but then I'm not a computer person).

fenix

In the real world you'd get first cats taking seasons off and coming back at the bottom and ripping the legs off the true beginners.

I'm sure that still happens and road cycling has been around a lot longer than Zwift.

gsk82

Its a computer game. Anyone who cheats at it is a sad act. Nothing to get upset about.

Pross

fenix said:

In the real world you'd get first cats taking seasons off and coming back at the bottom and ripping the legs off the true beginners.

I'm sure that still happens and road cycling has been around a lot longer than Zwift.

Not sure that's the same to be honest unless they've taken a few seasons off to drop back to 3rd cat solely with the intention of winning. Other than that it's just the system that's in place and if a former 1st cat has to take a few years out it's the only way to get back. Smashing everyone and going back up the categories as quickly as possible is a good thing.

I knew riders who would end their season a point short of getting an Elite licence but only because the realistic options for racing were limited if they moved up.

cruff

Racing on Zwift is, and always has been a clusterfcuk. In real life I'm an average 3rd cat - would have got 2nd last year if I hadn't been run over and missed two months, finished a few points short. In Zwift that translates to, effectively, no-man's land - too God for the Bs, but impossible to do anything in the As because the cat system is based on flawed metrics. In the A category, about 20% of the riders are legitimately ridiculously strong, the other 80% are either cheating or on badly calibrated equipmemt and either unknowing of the fact, or wilfully ignoring it.

Further down the categories, the problem is even worse, because you have the added problem of sandbaggers (riders who are far far too strong for C cat but ride well within themselves to have a chance of a 'win') as well as all the other issues with cheating and bad equipment.

Zwift are trying to address at least some of these issues, but they're taking an extremely light touch approach (asking them to effectively call paying customers 'cheats' and lock them out of races is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas)

It will, ultimately, never be solved because of the difference in equipment, inability to effectively police cheating and lack of any skill involved (no steering, no positioning, no wind, every race being the same) but at least its better motivation than staring at a garage wall

Pross

Thought the Ineos Race worked quite well. Everyone on the same kit albeit some handicapped by being at altitude. Commentary was pretty good fun and the switch to real life webcams helped. I wouldn't want to watch it regularly but as a bit of fun in the current circumstances 45 minutes featuring riders from all WT teams once a week would be OK.

Of course, following the OP's rationale we now know that Dennis is a far better climber than Froome or Bernal and should therefore be the Ineos leader at next year's Tour.

Pross

cruff said:

Racing on Zwift is, and always has been a clusterfcuk. In real life I'm an average 3rd cat - would have got 2nd last year if I hadn't been run over and missed two months, finished a few points short. In Zwift that translates to, effectively, no-man's land - too God for the Bs, but impossible to do anything in the As because the cat system is based on flawed metrics. In the A category, about 20% of the riders are legitimately ridiculously strong, the other 80% are either cheating or on badly calibrated equipmemt and either unknowing of the fact, or wilfully ignoring it.

Further down the categories, the problem is even worse, because you have the added problem of sandbaggers (riders who are far far too strong for C cat but ride well within themselves to have a chance of a 'win') as well as all the other issues with cheating and bad equipment.

Zwift are trying to address at least some of these issues, but they're taking an extremely light touch approach (asking them to effectively call paying customers 'cheats' and lock them out of races is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas)

It will, ultimately, never be solved because of the difference in equipment, inability to effectively police cheating and lack of any skill involved (no steering, no positioning, no wind, every race being the same) but at least its better motivation than staring at a garage wall

It's just a training tool and 'races' are just a way to push yourself hard when training. I did my first one last week and it was probably the most intense half an hour of effort I've put in on the bike ever. If people are 'cheating' that's good for me as it makes me ride harder to try to keep up or get the best position I can.

RichN95.

Pross said:

Of course, following the OP's rationale we now know that Dennis is a far better climber than Froome or Bernal and should therefore be the Ineos leader at next year's Tour.

Surely he'll point to the triathlete who came fourth

bobmcstuff

Pross said:

Thought the Ineos Race worked quite well. Everyone on the same kit albeit some handicapped by being at altitude. Commentary was pretty good fun and the switch to real life webcams helped. I wouldn't want to watch it regularly but as a bit of fun in the current circumstances 45 minutes featuring riders from all WT teams once a week would be OK.

Of course, following the OP's rationale we now know that Dennis is a far better climber than Froome or Bernal and should therefore be the Ineos leader at next year's Tour.

Yeah I found it moderately diverting.

Interesting to see all their w/kg figures like that - I would dream of riding up the Alpe at 6 w/kg!

bobmcstuff

Regards the sandbagging on Zwift they are trialling some anti-sandbagging measures at the moment. Basically throttling people who exceed the cat limits - and keeping the limit(s) secret so you can't just ride slightly below the limit. They are trying to keep it light touch at the moment.

https://zwiftinsider.com/anti-sandbagging-plans/
https://zwiftinsider.com/anti-sandbagging-test/

I'm going to have a go at the Bologna TT tomorrow (the short course from last years' Giro) - should be my cup of tea.

kingstongraham

bobmcstuff said:

Regards the sandbagging on Zwift they are trialling some anti-sandbagging measures at the moment. Basically throttling people who exceed the cat limits - and keeping the limit(s) secret so you can't just ride slightly below the limit. They are trying to keep it light touch at the moment.

https://zwiftinsider.com/anti-sandbagging-plans/
https://zwiftinsider.com/anti-sandbagging-test/

I'm going to have a go at the Bologna TT tomorrow (the short course from last years' Giro) - should be my cup of tea.

That's an excellent course. My favourite of the "real world" ones.

roscoe

RichN95. said:

Let's bring some facts to this.

1. The Ironman was Lionel Sanders, a former runner-up in Kona, so no mug

2. The race was three laps of the Richmond Worlds course - 27.8km

3. Van der Poel was just there because of the sponsors. He sat up after 7km

4. Sanders attacked with about 9km to go using an 'Invisibility power-up' which makes him invisible for ten seconds. Only Haimar Zubeldia gets to use those in real racing.

5. Three other riders bridged across. By his own admission Sanders wheelsucked a lot in that group, which only had one pro cyclist (from Alpacin)

6. He used another power-up to get away in the last 2km.

7. The peloton almost caught him on the line. I haven't heard of any of the top ten (all Zwift racers apparently)

8. The peloton included Maurizio Fondriest who is 55.

9. The graphics were better than for the van Avermaet race.

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53oS6IHlbM

RichN95. said:

Let's bring some facts to this.

1. The Ironman was Lionel Sanders, a former runner-up in Kona, so no mug

2. The race was three laps of the Richmond Worlds course - 27.8km

3. Van der Poel was just there because of the sponsors. He sat up after 7km

4. Sanders attacked with about 9km to go using an 'Invisibility power-up' which makes him invisible for ten seconds. Only Haimar Zubeldia gets to use those in real racing.

5. Three other riders bridged across. By his own admission Sanders wheelsucked a lot in that group, which only had one pro cyclist (from Alpacin)

6. He used another power-up to get away in the last 2km.

7. The peloton almost caught him on the line. I haven't heard of any of the top ten (all Zwift racers apparently)

8. The peloton included Maurizio Fondriest who is 55.

9. The graphics were better than for the van Avermaet race.

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53oS6IHlbM

RichN95. said:

Let's bring some facts to this.

1. The Ironman was Lionel Sanders, a former runner-up in Kona, so no mug

2. The race was three laps of the Richmond Worlds course - 27.8km

3. Van der Poel was just there because of the sponsors. He sat up after 7km

4. Sanders attacked with about 9km to go using an 'Invisibility power-up' which makes him invisible for ten seconds. Only Haimar Zubeldia gets to use those in real racing.

5. Three other riders bridged across. By his own admission Sanders wheelsucked a lot in that group, which only had one pro cyclist (from Alpacin)

6. He used another power-up to get away in the last 2km.

7. The peloton almost caught him on the line. I haven't heard of any of the top ten (all Zwift racers apparently)

8. The peloton included Maurizio Fondriest who is 55.

9. The graphics were better than for the van Avermaet race.

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53oS6IHlbM

RichN95. said:

Let's bring some facts to this.

1. The Ironman was Lionel Sanders, a former runner-up in Kona, so no mug

2. The race was three laps of the Richmond Worlds course - 27.8km

3. Van der Poel was just there because of the sponsors. He sat up after 7km

4. Sanders attacked with about 9km to go using an 'Invisibility power-up' which makes him invisible for ten seconds. Only Haimar Zubeldia gets to use those in real racing.

5. Three other riders bridged across. By his own admission Sanders wheelsucked a lot in that group, which only had one pro cyclist (from Alpacin)

6. He used another power-up to get away in the last 2km.

7. The peloton almost caught him on the line. I haven't heard of any of the top ten (all Zwift racers apparently)

8. The peloton included Maurizio Fondriest who is 55.

9. The graphics were better than for the van Avermaet race.

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53oS6IHlbM

RichN95. said:

Let's bring some facts to this.

1. The Ironman was Lionel Sanders, a former runner-up in Kona, so no mug

2. The race was three laps of the Richmond Worlds course - 27.8km

3. Van der Poel was just there because of the sponsors. He sat up after 7km

4. Sanders attacked with about 9km to go using an 'Invisibility power-up' which makes him invisible for ten seconds. Only Haimar Zubeldia gets to use those in real racing.

5. Three other riders bridged across. By his own admission Sanders wheelsucked a lot in that group, which only had one pro cyclist (from Alpacin)

6. He used another power-up to get away in the last 2km.

7. The peloton almost caught him on the line. I haven't heard of any of the top ten (all Zwift racers apparently)

8. The peloton included Maurizio Fondriest who is 55.

9. The graphics were better than for the van Avermaet race.

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53oS6IHlbM

RichN95. said:

Let's bring some facts to this.

1. The Ironman was Lionel Sanders, a former runner-up in Kona, so no mug

2. The race was three laps of the Richmond Worlds course - 27.8km

3. Van der Poel was just there because of the sponsors. He sat up after 7km

4. Sanders attacked with about 9km to go using an 'Invisibility power-up' which makes him invisible for ten seconds. Only Haimar Zubeldia gets to use those in real racing.

5. Three other riders bridged across. By his own admission Sanders wheelsucked a lot in that group, which only had one pro cyclist (from Alpacin)

6. He used another power-up to get away in the last 2km.

7. The peloton almost caught him on the line. I haven't heard of any of the top ten (all Zwift racers apparently)

8. The peloton included Maurizio Fondriest who is 55.

9. The graphics were better than for the van Avermaet race.

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53oS6IHlbM

I would be amazed if Lionel had a net worth of $9m.

roscoe

RichN95. said:

Let's bring some facts to this.

1. The Ironman was Lionel Sanders, a former runner-up in Kona, so no mug

2. The race was three laps of the Richmond Worlds course - 27.8km

3. Van der Poel was just there because of the sponsors. He sat up after 7km

4. Sanders attacked with about 9km to go using an 'Invisibility power-up' which makes him invisible for ten seconds. Only Haimar Zubeldia gets to use those in real racing.

5. Three other riders bridged across. By his own admission Sanders wheelsucked a lot in that group, which only had one pro cyclist (from Alpacin)

6. He used another power-up to get away in the last 2km.

7. The peloton almost caught him on the line. I haven't heard of any of the top ten (all Zwift racers apparently)

8. The peloton included Maurizio Fondriest who is 55.

9. The graphics were better than for the van Avermaet race.

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53oS6IHlbM

RichN95. said:

Let's bring some facts to this.

1. The Ironman was Lionel Sanders, a former runner-up in Kona, so no mug

2. The race was three laps of the Richmond Worlds course - 27.8km

3. Van der Poel was just there because of the sponsors. He sat up after 7km

4. Sanders attacked with about 9km to go using an 'Invisibility power-up' which makes him invisible for ten seconds. Only Haimar Zubeldia gets to use those in real racing.

5. Three other riders bridged across. By his own admission Sanders wheelsucked a lot in that group, which only had one pro cyclist (from Alpacin)

6. He used another power-up to get away in the last 2km.

7. The peloton almost caught him on the line. I haven't heard of any of the top ten (all Zwift racers apparently)

8. The peloton included Maurizio Fondriest who is 55.

9. The graphics were better than for the van Avermaet race.

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53oS6IHlbM

RichN95. said:

Let's bring some facts to this.

1. The Ironman was Lionel Sanders, a former runner-up in Kona, so no mug

2. The race was three laps of the Richmond Worlds course - 27.8km

3. Van der Poel was just there because of the sponsors. He sat up after 7km

4. Sanders attacked with about 9km to go using an 'Invisibility power-up' which makes him invisible for ten seconds. Only Haimar Zubeldia gets to use those in real racing.

5. Three other riders bridged across. By his own admission Sanders wheelsucked a lot in that group, which only had one pro cyclist (from Alpacin)

6. He used another power-up to get away in the last 2km.

7. The peloton almost caught him on the line. I haven't heard of any of the top ten (all Zwift racers apparently)

8. The peloton included Maurizio Fondriest who is 55.

9. The graphics were better than for the van Avermaet race.

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53oS6IHlbM

RichN95. said:

Let's bring some facts to this.

1. The Ironman was Lionel Sanders, a former runner-up in Kona, so no mug

2. The race was three laps of the Richmond Worlds course - 27.8km

3. Van der Poel was just there because of the sponsors. He sat up after 7km

4. Sanders attacked with about 9km to go using an 'Invisibility power-up' which makes him invisible for ten seconds. Only Haimar Zubeldia gets to use those in real racing.

5. Three other riders bridged across. By his own admission Sanders wheelsucked a lot in that group, which only had one pro cyclist (from Alpacin)

6. He used another power-up to get away in the last 2km.

7. The peloton almost caught him on the line. I haven't heard of any of the top ten (all Zwift racers apparently)

8. The peloton included Maurizio Fondriest who is 55.

9. The graphics were better than for the van Avermaet race.

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53oS6IHlbM

RichN95. said:

Let's bring some facts to this.

1. The Ironman was Lionel Sanders, a former runner-up in Kona, so no mug

2. The race was three laps of the Richmond Worlds course - 27.8km

3. Van der Poel was just there because of the sponsors. He sat up after 7km

4. Sanders attacked with about 9km to go using an 'Invisibility power-up' which makes him invisible for ten seconds. Only Haimar Zubeldia gets to use those in real racing.

5. Three other riders bridged across. By his own admission Sanders wheelsucked a lot in that group, which only had one pro cyclist (from Alpacin)

6. He used another power-up to get away in the last 2km.

7. The peloton almost caught him on the line. I haven't heard of any of the top ten (all Zwift racers apparently)

8. The peloton included Maurizio Fondriest who is 55.

9. The graphics were better than for the van Avermaet race.

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53oS6IHlbM

RichN95. said:

Let's bring some facts to this.

1. The Ironman was Lionel Sanders, a former runner-up in Kona, so no mug

2. The race was three laps of the Richmond Worlds course - 27.8km

3. Van der Poel was just there because of the sponsors. He sat up after 7km

4. Sanders attacked with about 9km to go using an 'Invisibility power-up' which makes him invisible for ten seconds. Only Haimar Zubeldia gets to use those in real racing.

5. Three other riders bridged across. By his own admission Sanders wheelsucked a lot in that group, which only had one pro cyclist (from Alpacin)

6. He used another power-up to get away in the last 2km.

7. The peloton almost caught him on the line. I haven't heard of any of the top ten (all Zwift racers apparently)

8. The peloton included Maurizio Fondriest who is 55.

9. The graphics were better than for the van Avermaet race.

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s53oS6IHlbM

I would be amazed if Lionel had a net worth of $9m.

pblakeney

I think we’ve had enough facts for now. 😉😂😂😂

orraloon

So good he said it twice twelve times... 😊

fenix

zest28 said:

Considering that his net worth is $9 million, I am pretty sure he is financially better off than most pro-cyclists (who do not even earn much money).

I've just seen a video of his training room. He had to use prize money to put in an endless pool in the basement and then had no cash left for a toilet - so he uses a yellow bucket. He's doing well but not 9 million !

Pross

fenix said:

zest28 said:

Considering that his net worth is $9 million, I am pretty sure he is financially better off than most pro-cyclists (who do not even earn much money).

I've just seen a video of his training room. He had to use prize money to put in an endless pool in the basement and then had no cash left for a toilet - so he uses a yellow bucket. He's doing well but not 9 million !

Does he actually do any training outdoors? An agoraphobic triathlete!

fenix

I believe he does do most of it indoors but it's probably the best way. Controllable environment - and safe. He's got to fit a lot of hours in so efficiency counts.

jimmythecuckoo

This is one of the worst threads in the history of this forum.

And yet I still can't take my eyes of it...

RichN95.

Forget triathletes - this is the king of Zwift

https://twitter.com/thecoureur/status/1246749310940782592

david37

Zwift is a computer game, racing is the real deal, both are valid but different.

zest28

Pross said:

Thought the Ineos Race worked quite well. Everyone on the same kit albeit some handicapped by being at altitude. Commentary was pretty good fun and the switch to real life webcams helped. I wouldn't want to watch it regularly but as a bit of fun in the current circumstances 45 minutes featuring riders from all WT teams once a week would be OK.

Of course, following the OP's rationale we now know that Dennis is a far better climber than Froome or Bernal and should therefore be the Ineos leader at next year's Tour.

What that virtual race showed is (Rouvy is a very bad platform as it does not simulate drafting), that if drafting does not exist, time trial specialists will win as they are the fastest pro cyclists. If every stage of a tour had to be performed solo (so no drafting), Dennis would indeed beat Bernal.

It does make you wonder how much of a sport pro cycling actually is, when you are being helped the vast majority of time by the work of other people as a result of drafting.

In iron man, drafting is illegal so the best athlete does really win.