The big Coronavirus thread

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Comments

  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 17,496
    coopster_the_1st said:

    For all those thinking that testing is way out of this:

    I've been reading an account of someone who was hospitalised after 9 days with C19(all the symptoms), a chest x-ray confirmed it looked like C19 however the swab test performed in hospital around the same time came back negative.

    If the 'has it' swab test cannot provide an accurate result for someone who has been hospitalised with the virus, the WHO advice is wrong. As has been stated before a wrong test result is worse than no test.

    a chest x-ray can show pneumonia, it cannot prove that any particular virus/bacterium is the cause

    all the other viral diseases are still out there
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    TheBigBean said:

    The problem with reopening schools and nurseries is that a lot of the teachers don't want to work in what they see as a high risk environment,

    Absolutely and I don't blame them. I'm currently paying my childminder for doing nothing but she has friends who are obliged to continue looking after children but don't want to.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,903
    Pross said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    Has the burning of phone masts by retards been covered on here?

    Yes. I thought the person I 'unfriended' on Facebook who was the first person I'd seen mention a link was just a one off loon (she has history of anti-vax, anti-pharma rants and is into her natural remedies and meditation) but it seems to be worryingly widespread stupidity. It's not helped by so called celebrities like Amanda Holden Tweeting about it and, let's face it, those who follow Amanda Holden on Twitter are unlikely to be capable of thinking and reasoning for themselves.
    Don't forget Eamon Holmes. Ought to lose his job for spouting such dangerous nonsense on live TV.

    As someone else pointed out, if people are worried about the heating effects of radio waves they're going to freak out when they see that huge burning ball of gas bathing us in radiation every day.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,686
    rjsterry said:

    Pross said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    Has the burning of phone masts by retards been covered on here?

    Yes. I thought the person I 'unfriended' on Facebook who was the first person I'd seen mention a link was just a one off loon (she has history of anti-vax, anti-pharma rants and is into her natural remedies and meditation) but it seems to be worryingly widespread stupidity. It's not helped by so called celebrities like Amanda Holden Tweeting about it and, let's face it, those who follow Amanda Holden on Twitter are unlikely to be capable of thinking and reasoning for themselves.
    Don't forget Eamon Holmes. Ought to lose his job for spouting such dangerous nonsense on live TV.

    As someone else pointed out, if people are worried about the heating effects of radio waves they're going to freak out when they see that huge burning ball of gas bathing us in radiation every day.
    One of my very rare Tweets was to him ripping into him after his rant about cyclists. I suggested he could do with spending a bit of time exercising on a bike to shift the lard so I may be blocked now.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    pangolin said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Even Sunak’s money-printer-goes-brrr has run aground at the delivery point, which is as critical as the policy in the first place at this point.

    It's this sort of comment that puts you at the extreme negative end of the spectrum. You post what come across as snide criticisms without posting any detail. It's not helpful.

    Also, maybe some of us slightly older than yourself accept that errors will have been made but that those in charge are desperately trying to make good choices for the benefit of us all.

    Many of us also understand that short term figures are not a good measure of a medium or longer term situation.
    This isn’t snide. It’s a real problem. Businesses that are eligible can’t get the money.

    How is that not a critical problem?
    You are being a bit vague here. Last I read the means to claim funding for furloughed employees was an online portal due to go live I think 20th April.

    Are you referring to the fact that it's not live yet (agree this is not great) or some other deeper issue?
    In fairness to Rick I gave the detail recently and everybody ignored it.

    The Govt made a big announcement that huge sums of money were being made available to stop viable businesses from going bust.

    300,000 businesses have applied for this money.
    4,000 businesses have had their applications approved

    If the media and opposition do not criticise then there is no chance that this Govt will up it’s game.

    It was obvious to a blind man that the UK would never be able to administer loans to hundreds of thousands of businesses. If they were not so arrogant they could have looked for an alternative solution.
    It would be super helpful if one of you could post a source or make it clear which specific funding scheme we're talking about.
    Most people on here do not read links or rubbish the source. Let me know what sources are good for you and I will get you a link.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,686
    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Even Sunak’s money-printer-goes-brrr has run aground at the delivery point, which is as critical as the policy in the first place at this point.

    It's this sort of comment that puts you at the extreme negative end of the spectrum. You post what come across as snide criticisms without posting any detail. It's not helpful.

    Also, maybe some of us slightly older than yourself accept that errors will have been made but that those in charge are desperately trying to make good choices for the benefit of us all.

    Many of us also understand that short term figures are not a good measure of a medium or longer term situation.
    This isn’t snide. It’s a real problem. Businesses that are eligible can’t get the money.

    How is that not a critical problem?
    You are being a bit vague here. Last I read the means to claim funding for furloughed employees was an online portal due to go live I think 20th April.

    Are you referring to the fact that it's not live yet (agree this is not great) or some other deeper issue?
    In fairness to Rick I gave the detail recently and everybody ignored it.

    The Govt made a big announcement that huge sums of money were being made available to stop viable businesses from going bust.

    300,000 businesses have applied for this money.
    4,000 businesses have had their applications approved

    If the media and opposition do not criticise then there is no chance that this Govt will up it’s game.

    It was obvious to a blind man that the UK would never be able to administer loans to hundreds of thousands of businesses. If they were not so arrogant they could have looked for an alternative solution.
    It would be super helpful if one of you could post a source or make it clear which specific funding scheme we're talking about.
    Most people on here do not read links or rubbish the source. Let me know what sources are good for you and I will get you a link.
    I think that's an unfair assessment. You only have to look a few posts up to find that people have clearly read the links regarding care homes after Rick was challenged.

    I said at the time the financial measures were introduced that I felt they were a good thing but that it would be interesting to see if they could get implemented in time so I'm not surprised. Getting anything to work quickly with our layers of bureaucracy and p!ss poor IT systems is always going to be a problem.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,112
    First.Aspect said:

    nickice said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    nickice said:

    So, if the lockdown were lifted tomorrow, and work excepted, how many people would go back to bars, restaurants etc?

    Good question and this will be a big challenge for a lot of countries - and people.

    Not sure yet what I would do. I think I will assess more closely based on the situatuon when the time comes.
    I personally, as a diabetic, wouldn't go anywhere near them but I think the message is so ingrained now that, without an effective treatment/vaccine, people wouldn't exactly flock back. The media isn't helping by picking up rare cases of deaths in young, healthy people. If they did that for the seasonal flu, a lot of people would rarely venture out.

    This is why I don't quite understand why Macron is opening schools six weeks before the summer holidays. We've been given this message of avoiding the virus but opening schools seems pretty obviously an attempt to allow the virus to slowly progress through the population.
    This is for two reasons - 1. there is very little suggestion that schools actually are a powerful vector. Counter intuitive but that's what the number crunchers are saying. 2. letting kids back to school lets their parents do some work.
    I would be asking given the newness of this virus how do we know schools aren't the ideal place to spread the virus?

    Lots of people in close proximity and probably in the habit of making physical contact more frequently than most adults. How could we possibly have the data to isolate schools closing as a variable?

    OK so kids don't suffer symptoms - are they saying they can't be asymptomatic carriers too - that may be the case but it's not something I've read.

    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,295
    DeVlaeminck said:

    First.Aspect said:

    nickice said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    nickice said:

    So, if the lockdown were lifted tomorrow, and work excepted, how many people would go back to bars, restaurants etc?

    Good question and this will be a big challenge for a lot of countries - and people.

    Not sure yet what I would do. I think I will assess more closely based on the situatuon when the time comes.
    I personally, as a diabetic, wouldn't go anywhere near them but I think the message is so ingrained now that, without an effective treatment/vaccine, people wouldn't exactly flock back. The media isn't helping by picking up rare cases of deaths in young, healthy people. If they did that for the seasonal flu, a lot of people would rarely venture out.

    This is why I don't quite understand why Macron is opening schools six weeks before the summer holidays. We've been given this message of avoiding the virus but opening schools seems pretty obviously an attempt to allow the virus to slowly progress through the population.
    This is for two reasons - 1. there is very little suggestion that schools actually are a powerful vector. Counter intuitive but that's what the number crunchers are saying. 2. letting kids back to school lets their parents do some work.
    I would be asking given the newness of this virus how do we know schools aren't the ideal place to spread the virus?

    Lots of people in close proximity and probably in the habit of making physical contact more frequently than most adults. How could we possibly have the data to isolate schools closing as a variable?

    OK so kids don't suffer symptoms - are they saying they can't be asymptomatic carriers too - that may be the case but it's not something I've read.

    If you were to WANT it to infect young families first, that sounds ideal.

    Issues around health and care workers with families, obviously.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    edited April 2020
    nickice said:

    So, if the lockdown were lifted tomorrow, and work excepted, how many people would go back to bars, restaurants etc?

    In my case it would be selective.

    eg I would not travel on busy public transport or go back to the gym

    However I would return to cafes, coffee shops, golf clubs, outdoor spaces, etc. ie if there was a pub with a large outdoor area where reasonable precautions could be taken I would use it.

    I understand you are at higher risk so understand your position but for those of us who are in the younger, fitter and don't have underlying vulnerabilities categories (ie low risk) we have a civic duty to catch and gain immunity from this disease for the greater good of the country.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Stevo_666 said:

    nickice said:

    So, if the lockdown were lifted tomorrow, and work excepted, how many people would go back to bars, restaurants etc?

    Good question and this will be a big challenge for a lot of countries - and people.

    Not sure yet what I would do. I think I will assess more closely based on the situatuon when the time comes.
    I literally asked the same question last week...!
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Pross said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Even Sunak’s money-printer-goes-brrr has run aground at the delivery point, which is as critical as the policy in the first place at this point.

    It's this sort of comment that puts you at the extreme negative end of the spectrum. You post what come across as snide criticisms without posting any detail. It's not helpful.

    Also, maybe some of us slightly older than yourself accept that errors will have been made but that those in charge are desperately trying to make good choices for the benefit of us all.

    Many of us also understand that short term figures are not a good measure of a medium or longer term situation.
    This isn’t snide. It’s a real problem. Businesses that are eligible can’t get the money.

    How is that not a critical problem?
    You are being a bit vague here. Last I read the means to claim funding for furloughed employees was an online portal due to go live I think 20th April.

    Are you referring to the fact that it's not live yet (agree this is not great) or some other deeper issue?
    In fairness to Rick I gave the detail recently and everybody ignored it.

    The Govt made a big announcement that huge sums of money were being made available to stop viable businesses from going bust.

    300,000 businesses have applied for this money.
    4,000 businesses have had their applications approved

    If the media and opposition do not criticise then there is no chance that this Govt will up it’s game.

    It was obvious to a blind man that the UK would never be able to administer loans to hundreds of thousands of businesses. If they were not so arrogant they could have looked for an alternative solution.
    It would be super helpful if one of you could post a source or make it clear which specific funding scheme we're talking about.
    Most people on here do not read links or rubbish the source. Let me know what sources are good for you and I will get you a link.
    I think that's an unfair assessment. You only have to look a few posts up to find that people have clearly read the links regarding care homes after Rick was challenged.

    I said at the time the financial measures were introduced that I felt they were a good thing but that it would be interesting to see if they could get implemented in time so I'm not surprised. Getting anything to work quickly with our layers of bureaucracy and p!ss poor IT systems is always going to be a problem.
    Maybe slightly unfair. My point still stands that I don’t know him well enough to chose a source that will resonate with him.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited April 2020
    surrey_commuter said:

    Pross said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Even Sunak’s money-printer-goes-brrr has run aground at the delivery point, which is as critical as the policy in the first place at this point.

    It's this sort of comment that puts you at the extreme negative end of the spectrum. You post what come across as snide criticisms without posting any detail. It's not helpful.

    Also, maybe some of us slightly older than yourself accept that errors will have been made but that those in charge are desperately trying to make good choices for the benefit of us all.

    Many of us also understand that short term figures are not a good measure of a medium or longer term situation.
    This isn’t snide. It’s a real problem. Businesses that are eligible can’t get the money.

    How is that not a critical problem?
    You are being a bit vague here. Last I read the means to claim funding for furloughed employees was an online portal due to go live I think 20th April.

    Are you referring to the fact that it's not live yet (agree this is not great) or some other deeper issue?
    In fairness to Rick I gave the detail recently and everybody ignored it.

    The Govt made a big announcement that huge sums of money were being made available to stop viable businesses from going bust.

    300,000 businesses have applied for this money.
    4,000 businesses have had their applications approved

    If the media and opposition do not criticise then there is no chance that this Govt will up it’s game.

    It was obvious to a blind man that the UK would never be able to administer loans to hundreds of thousands of businesses. If they were not so arrogant they could have looked for an alternative solution.
    It would be super helpful if one of you could post a source or make it clear which specific funding scheme we're talking about.
    Most people on here do not read links or rubbish the source. Let me know what sources are good for you and I will get you a link.
    I think that's an unfair assessment. You only have to look a few posts up to find that people have clearly read the links regarding care homes after Rick was challenged.

    I said at the time the financial measures were introduced that I felt they were a good thing but that it would be interesting to see if they could get implemented in time so I'm not surprised. Getting anything to work quickly with our layers of bureaucracy and p!ss poor IT systems is always going to be a problem.
    Maybe slightly unfair. My point still stands that I don’t know him well enough to chose a source that will resonate with him.
    Gov't has released figures on the CBILS. So far the value of facilities approved is only £1.1bn which is way too low. It's been going for a month. That's a pitiful number.



    https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/press/press-releases/banking-and-finance-sector-provides-over-
    _
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,686
    surrey_commuter said:

    Pross said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Even Sunak’s money-printer-goes-brrr has run aground at the delivery point, which is as critical as the policy in the first place at this point.

    It's this sort of comment that puts you at the extreme negative end of the spectrum. You post what come across as snide criticisms without posting any detail. It's not helpful.

    Also, maybe some of us slightly older than yourself accept that errors will have been made but that those in charge are desperately trying to make good choices for the benefit of us all.

    Many of us also understand that short term figures are not a good measure of a medium or longer term situation.
    This isn’t snide. It’s a real problem. Businesses that are eligible can’t get the money.

    How is that not a critical problem?
    You are being a bit vague here. Last I read the means to claim funding for furloughed employees was an online portal due to go live I think 20th April.

    Are you referring to the fact that it's not live yet (agree this is not great) or some other deeper issue?
    In fairness to Rick I gave the detail recently and everybody ignored it.

    The Govt made a big announcement that huge sums of money were being made available to stop viable businesses from going bust.

    300,000 businesses have applied for this money.
    4,000 businesses have had their applications approved

    If the media and opposition do not criticise then there is no chance that this Govt will up it’s game.

    It was obvious to a blind man that the UK would never be able to administer loans to hundreds of thousands of businesses. If they were not so arrogant they could have looked for an alternative solution.
    It would be super helpful if one of you could post a source or make it clear which specific funding scheme we're talking about.
    Most people on here do not read links or rubbish the source. Let me know what sources are good for you and I will get you a link.
    I think that's an unfair assessment. You only have to look a few posts up to find that people have clearly read the links regarding care homes after Rick was challenged.

    I said at the time the financial measures were introduced that I felt they were a good thing but that it would be interesting to see if they could get implemented in time so I'm not surprised. Getting anything to work quickly with our layers of bureaucracy and p!ss poor IT systems is always going to be a problem.
    Maybe slightly unfair. My point still stands that I don’t know him well enough to chose a source that will resonate with him.
    The problem I have is knowing what sources are reasonably balanced and agenda free. It rules out most of the mainstream UK print media but I know there are individual journalists working for those papers that people seem to rate. It's why I prefer to find direct comments from the experts where possible as often the reports of what I've heard them say directly are embellished or edited to suit someone's view.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,469
    kingstongraham said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    First.Aspect said:

    nickice said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    nickice said:

    So, if the lockdown were lifted tomorrow, and work excepted, how many people would go back to bars, restaurants etc?

    Good question and this will be a big challenge for a lot of countries - and people.

    Not sure yet what I would do. I think I will assess more closely based on the situatuon when the time comes.
    I personally, as a diabetic, wouldn't go anywhere near them but I think the message is so ingrained now that, without an effective treatment/vaccine, people wouldn't exactly flock back. The media isn't helping by picking up rare cases of deaths in young, healthy people. If they did that for the seasonal flu, a lot of people would rarely venture out.

    This is why I don't quite understand why Macron is opening schools six weeks before the summer holidays. We've been given this message of avoiding the virus but opening schools seems pretty obviously an attempt to allow the virus to slowly progress through the population.
    This is for two reasons - 1. there is very little suggestion that schools actually are a powerful vector. Counter intuitive but that's what the number crunchers are saying. 2. letting kids back to school lets their parents do some work.
    I would be asking given the newness of this virus how do we know schools aren't the ideal place to spread the virus?

    Lots of people in close proximity and probably in the habit of making physical contact more frequently than most adults. How could we possibly have the data to isolate schools closing as a variable?

    OK so kids don't suffer symptoms - are they saying they can't be asymptomatic carriers too - that may be the case but it's not something I've read.

    If you were to WANT it to infect young families first, that sounds ideal.

    Issues around health and care workers with families, obviously.
    Don't shoot the messenger.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,686
    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    Pross said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Even Sunak’s money-printer-goes-brrr has run aground at the delivery point, which is as critical as the policy in the first place at this point.

    It's this sort of comment that puts you at the extreme negative end of the spectrum. You post what come across as snide criticisms without posting any detail. It's not helpful.

    Also, maybe some of us slightly older than yourself accept that errors will have been made but that those in charge are desperately trying to make good choices for the benefit of us all.

    Many of us also understand that short term figures are not a good measure of a medium or longer term situation.
    This isn’t snide. It’s a real problem. Businesses that are eligible can’t get the money.

    How is that not a critical problem?
    You are being a bit vague here. Last I read the means to claim funding for furloughed employees was an online portal due to go live I think 20th April.

    Are you referring to the fact that it's not live yet (agree this is not great) or some other deeper issue?
    In fairness to Rick I gave the detail recently and everybody ignored it.

    The Govt made a big announcement that huge sums of money were being made available to stop viable businesses from going bust.

    300,000 businesses have applied for this money.
    4,000 businesses have had their applications approved

    If the media and opposition do not criticise then there is no chance that this Govt will up it’s game.

    It was obvious to a blind man that the UK would never be able to administer loans to hundreds of thousands of businesses. If they were not so arrogant they could have looked for an alternative solution.
    It would be super helpful if one of you could post a source or make it clear which specific funding scheme we're talking about.
    Most people on here do not read links or rubbish the source. Let me know what sources are good for you and I will get you a link.
    I think that's an unfair assessment. You only have to look a few posts up to find that people have clearly read the links regarding care homes after Rick was challenged.

    I said at the time the financial measures were introduced that I felt they were a good thing but that it would be interesting to see if they could get implemented in time so I'm not surprised. Getting anything to work quickly with our layers of bureaucracy and p!ss poor IT systems is always going to be a problem.
    Maybe slightly unfair. My point still stands that I don’t know him well enough to chose a source that will resonate with him.
    Gov't has released figures on the CBILS. So far the value of facilities approved is only £1.1bn which is way too low. It's been going for a month. That's a pitiful number.



    https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/press/press-releases/banking-and-finance-sector-provides-over-
    Is that down to the Government or banks? I thought the banks had been told to administer it and not to drag their feet. Also, any idea of the value that has been requested? I can't open the link provided.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,295
    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    First.Aspect said:

    nickice said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    nickice said:

    So, if the lockdown were lifted tomorrow, and work excepted, how many people would go back to bars, restaurants etc?

    Good question and this will be a big challenge for a lot of countries - and people.

    Not sure yet what I would do. I think I will assess more closely based on the situatuon when the time comes.
    I personally, as a diabetic, wouldn't go anywhere near them but I think the message is so ingrained now that, without an effective treatment/vaccine, people wouldn't exactly flock back. The media isn't helping by picking up rare cases of deaths in young, healthy people. If they did that for the seasonal flu, a lot of people would rarely venture out.

    This is why I don't quite understand why Macron is opening schools six weeks before the summer holidays. We've been given this message of avoiding the virus but opening schools seems pretty obviously an attempt to allow the virus to slowly progress through the population.
    This is for two reasons - 1. there is very little suggestion that schools actually are a powerful vector. Counter intuitive but that's what the number crunchers are saying. 2. letting kids back to school lets their parents do some work.
    I would be asking given the newness of this virus how do we know schools aren't the ideal place to spread the virus?

    Lots of people in close proximity and probably in the habit of making physical contact more frequently than most adults. How could we possibly have the data to isolate schools closing as a variable?

    OK so kids don't suffer symptoms - are they saying they can't be asymptomatic carriers too - that may be the case but it's not something I've read.

    If you were to WANT it to infect young families first, that sounds ideal.

    Issues around health and care workers with families, obviously.
    Don't shoot the messenger.
    No, I was serious - that might be the next step. Not saying it's definitely a ridiculous idea, as there are lot of things we still don't know.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited April 2020
    Pross said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    Pross said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Even Sunak’s money-printer-goes-brrr has run aground at the delivery point, which is as critical as the policy in the first place at this point.

    It's this sort of comment that puts you at the extreme negative end of the spectrum. You post what come across as snide criticisms without posting any detail. It's not helpful.

    Also, maybe some of us slightly older than yourself accept that errors will have been made but that those in charge are desperately trying to make good choices for the benefit of us all.

    Many of us also understand that short term figures are not a good measure of a medium or longer term situation.
    This isn’t snide. It’s a real problem. Businesses that are eligible can’t get the money.

    How is that not a critical problem?
    You are being a bit vague here. Last I read the means to claim funding for furloughed employees was an online portal due to go live I think 20th April.

    Are you referring to the fact that it's not live yet (agree this is not great) or some other deeper issue?
    In fairness to Rick I gave the detail recently and everybody ignored it.

    The Govt made a big announcement that huge sums of money were being made available to stop viable businesses from going bust.

    300,000 businesses have applied for this money.
    4,000 businesses have had their applications approved

    If the media and opposition do not criticise then there is no chance that this Govt will up it’s game.

    It was obvious to a blind man that the UK would never be able to administer loans to hundreds of thousands of businesses. If they were not so arrogant they could have looked for an alternative solution.
    It would be super helpful if one of you could post a source or make it clear which specific funding scheme we're talking about.
    Most people on here do not read links or rubbish the source. Let me know what sources are good for you and I will get you a link.
    I think that's an unfair assessment. You only have to look a few posts up to find that people have clearly read the links regarding care homes after Rick was challenged.

    I said at the time the financial measures were introduced that I felt they were a good thing but that it would be interesting to see if they could get implemented in time so I'm not surprised. Getting anything to work quickly with our layers of bureaucracy and p!ss poor IT systems is always going to be a problem.
    Maybe slightly unfair. My point still stands that I don’t know him well enough to chose a source that will resonate with him.
    Gov't has released figures on the CBILS. So far the value of facilities approved is only £1.1bn which is way too low. It's been going for a month. That's a pitiful number.



    https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/press/press-releases/banking-and-finance-sector-provides-over-
    Is that down to the Government or banks? I thought the banks had been told to administer it and not to drag their feet. Also, any idea of the value that has been requested? I can't open the link provided.
    Just off the back of those figured you'd expect it to be around £5bn, but again, that, in the grand scheme of what we're looking at here, is absolutely tiny.
    _
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,903
    surrey_commuter said:

    Pross said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Even Sunak’s money-printer-goes-brrr has run aground at the delivery point, which is as critical as the policy in the first place at this point.

    It's this sort of comment that puts you at the extreme negative end of the spectrum. You post what come across as snide criticisms without posting any detail. It's not helpful.

    Also, maybe some of us slightly older than yourself accept that errors will have been made but that those in charge are desperately trying to make good choices for the benefit of us all.

    Many of us also understand that short term figures are not a good measure of a medium or longer term situation.
    This isn’t snide. It’s a real problem. Businesses that are eligible can’t get the money.

    How is that not a critical problem?
    You are being a bit vague here. Last I read the means to claim funding for furloughed employees was an online portal due to go live I think 20th April.

    Are you referring to the fact that it's not live yet (agree this is not great) or some other deeper issue?
    In fairness to Rick I gave the detail recently and everybody ignored it.

    The Govt made a big announcement that huge sums of money were being made available to stop viable businesses from going bust.

    300,000 businesses have applied for this money.
    4,000 businesses have had their applications approved

    If the media and opposition do not criticise then there is no chance that this Govt will up it’s game.

    It was obvious to a blind man that the UK would never be able to administer loans to hundreds of thousands of businesses. If they were not so arrogant they could have looked for an alternative solution.
    It would be super helpful if one of you could post a source or make it clear which specific funding scheme we're talking about.
    Most people on here do not read links or rubbish the source. Let me know what sources are good for you and I will get you a link.
    I think that's an unfair assessment. You only have to look a few posts up to find that people have clearly read the links regarding care homes after Rick was challenged.

    I said at the time the financial measures were introduced that I felt they were a good thing but that it would be interesting to see if they could get implemented in time so I'm not surprised. Getting anything to work quickly with our layers of bureaucracy and p!ss poor IT systems is always going to be a problem.
    Maybe slightly unfair. My point still stands that I don’t know him well enough to chose a source that will resonate with him.
    It was a straightforward question. Not everyone judges articles purely on the publication in which they appear. There were a number of different schemes for different sizes of business including grants and rates relief for very small businesses; loans for larger businesses and the furlough scheme. There was an initial requirement on the loan scheme for businesses to first demonstrate that they couldn't obtain the same loan on a commercial basis, but this was unworkable as lenders required face to face meetings for loans. I understand that requirement has now been removed.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    rick_chasey said:

    Pross said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    Pross said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pangolin said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Even Sunak’s money-printer-goes-brrr has run aground at the delivery point, which is as critical as the policy in the first place at this point.

    It's this sort of comment that puts you at the extreme negative end of the spectrum. You post what come across as snide criticisms without posting any detail. It's not helpful.

    Also, maybe some of us slightly older than yourself accept that errors will have been made but that those in charge are desperately trying to make good choices for the benefit of us all.

    Many of us also understand that short term figures are not a good measure of a medium or longer term situation.
    This isn’t snide. It’s a real problem. Businesses that are eligible can’t get the money.

    How is that not a critical problem?
    You are being a bit vague here. Last I read the means to claim funding for furloughed employees was an online portal due to go live I think 20th April.

    Are you referring to the fact that it's not live yet (agree this is not great) or some other deeper issue?
    In fairness to Rick I gave the detail recently and everybody ignored it.

    The Govt made a big announcement that huge sums of money were being made available to stop viable businesses from going bust.

    300,000 businesses have applied for this money.
    4,000 businesses have had their applications approved

    If the media and opposition do not criticise then there is no chance that this Govt will up it’s game.

    It was obvious to a blind man that the UK would never be able to administer loans to hundreds of thousands of businesses. If they were not so arrogant they could have looked for an alternative solution.
    It would be super helpful if one of you could post a source or make it clear which specific funding scheme we're talking about.
    Most people on here do not read links or rubbish the source. Let me know what sources are good for you and I will get you a link.
    I think that's an unfair assessment. You only have to look a few posts up to find that people have clearly read the links regarding care homes after Rick was challenged.

    I said at the time the financial measures were introduced that I felt they were a good thing but that it would be interesting to see if they could get implemented in time so I'm not surprised. Getting anything to work quickly with our layers of bureaucracy and p!ss poor IT systems is always going to be a problem.
    Maybe slightly unfair. My point still stands that I don’t know him well enough to chose a source that will resonate with him.
    Gov't has released figures on the CBILS. So far the value of facilities approved is only £1.1bn which is way too low. It's been going for a month. That's a pitiful number.



    https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/press/press-releases/banking-and-finance-sector-provides-over-
    Is that down to the Government or banks? I thought the banks had been told to administer it and not to drag their feet. Also, any idea of the value that has been requested? I can't open the link provided.
    Just off the back of those figured you'd expect it to be around £5bn, but again, that, in the grand scheme of what we're looking at here, is absolutely tiny.
    Radio 6 bulletin top story is that small businesses can't even register for it, which would go some way to explain why the numbers are so low.
    _
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,668
    Yes I was asking which scheme Rick was referring to, that's clear now.
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited April 2020
    pangolin said:

    Yes I was asking which scheme Rick was referring to, that's clear now.

    TBH, you name the scheme, I'll give you data that it's not working as promised. It's all a sh!tshow.

    This often happens. I pipe up with some vaguely angry "this is all rubbish", people get annoyed and ask for a source, I give one and they go 'oh ok' and that's the end of it.

    Obviously bad delivery on my part.
    _
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,967
    The job retention scheme seems to be operating as planned so far. The guidance is a bit of a moving feast but will probably only be an issue further down the line if HMRC audit the claims.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,668
    edited April 2020
    rick_chasey said:

    pangolin said:

    Yes I was asking which scheme Rick was referring to, that's clear now.

    TBH, you name the scheme, I'll give you data that it's not working as promised. It's all a sh!tshow.

    This often happens. I pipe up with some vaguely angry "this is all rubbish", people get annoyed and ask for a source, I give one and they go 'oh ok' and that's the end of it.

    Obviously bad delivery on my part.
    Keep making posts that are almost deliberately vague and telling us all how terrible everything is and it just becomes a sort of white noise that is impossible to continue to engage with - at least in any way that feels remotely productive.
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,967
    rick_chasey said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    nickice said:

    So, if the lockdown were lifted tomorrow, and work excepted, how many people would go back to bars, restaurants etc?

    Good question and this will be a big challenge for a lot of countries - and people.

    Not sure yet what I would do. I think I will assess more closely based on the situatuon when the time comes.
    I literally asked the same question last week...!
    You probably did, but I don't read all of your posts.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,668
    Some more positive news:

    Iran's Guards unveil 'magnetic' virus detection tool

    The commander of the Islamic Revolution Guard Corps has unveiled a handheld device that he said could identify people infected with the coronavirus within 100m (330ft), Tasnim news agency reports.

    "The basis of this device is to create a magnetic field based on a bipolar virus inside the device, so its antenna can focus on any place within a 100m diameter that is infected by the virus, and identify the infected place in five seconds," Maj-Gen Hossein Salami was quoted as saying.

    He added that its accuracy was "80%”, but provided no evidence.

    Experts say the only reliable way to test for Covid-19 currently is by taking a swab of the nose or throat, which is sent off to a lab to look for signs of the virus’s genetic material.
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,903
    Stevo_666 said:

    The job retention scheme seems to be operating as planned so far. The guidance is a bit of a moving feast but will probably only be an issue further down the line if HMRC audit the claims.

    Agreed. I think they are going to have to give quite a lot of SMEs some slack on the precise way it has been implemented in each firm.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    kingstongraham said:

    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    First.Aspect said:

    nickice said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    nickice said:

    So, if the lockdown were lifted tomorrow, and work excepted, how many people would go back to bars, restaurants etc?

    Good question and this will be a big challenge for a lot of countries - and people.

    Not sure yet what I would do. I think I will assess more closely based on the situatuon when the time comes.
    I personally, as a diabetic, wouldn't go anywhere near them but I think the message is so ingrained now that, without an effective treatment/vaccine, people wouldn't exactly flock back. The media isn't helping by picking up rare cases of deaths in young, healthy people. If they did that for the seasonal flu, a lot of people would rarely venture out.

    This is why I don't quite understand why Macron is opening schools six weeks before the summer holidays. We've been given this message of avoiding the virus but opening schools seems pretty obviously an attempt to allow the virus to slowly progress through the population.
    This is for two reasons - 1. there is very little suggestion that schools actually are a powerful vector. Counter intuitive but that's what the number crunchers are saying. 2. letting kids back to school lets their parents do some work.
    I would be asking given the newness of this virus how do we know schools aren't the ideal place to spread the virus?

    Lots of people in close proximity and probably in the habit of making physical contact more frequently than most adults. How could we possibly have the data to isolate schools closing as a variable?

    OK so kids don't suffer symptoms - are they saying they can't be asymptomatic carriers too - that may be the case but it's not something I've read.

    If you were to WANT it to infect young families first, that sounds ideal.

    Issues around health and care workers with families, obviously.
    Don't shoot the messenger.
    No, I was serious - that might be the next step. Not saying it's definitely a ridiculous idea, as there are lot of things we still don't know.
    This is the problem. I personally assume the kids will be OK or at least no more at risk than with any normal flu type virus. I’d be inclined to think I would maximise social distancing but otherwise return to a more normal routine (I work from home a lot anyway) and would drive rather than public transport if required to attend sites.
    Problem is, the wife is a risk. If the kids and I are busily doing our bit, chances are she gets ill. It’s a genuine conundrum.
    Suppose we don’t reduce restrictions and I lose my job, I can be far less picky as I then have to get whatever work is going.
    These are the types of conundrums the government has.
    I can assure you that if, if in a couple of weeks time, we assume 10% of the population have had this and they are biased towards mobile (economically active) people. This significant and continually growing minority is going to have to be allowed to become productive.
    I see no other reality than at some point, we will in all probability be forced to take our chance with this virus.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,295
    Stevo_666 said:

    The job retention scheme seems to be operating as planned so far. The guidance is a bit of a moving feast but will probably only be an issue further down the line if HMRC audit the claims.

    I'm not that close to it, but is it working as planned because everyone is trusting it will be ready on time, or is there more to it? The guidance still says "The online service you’ll use to claim is not available yet. We expect it to be available by the end of April 2020." The original date was 20th April for this to be available, with first payments by end of April, so not long to go. It's a hell of a thing to get designed, built and tested in that amount of time.

    The self employment version says "The online service you’ll use to claim is not available yet. HMRC will aim to contact you by mid May 2020, and will make payments by early June 2020."

    It's working in that it has given the confidence to businesses and encouraged them to tell their staff to stay home, but the actual distribution of money bit hasn't started yet.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,967
    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    The job retention scheme seems to be operating as planned so far. The guidance is a bit of a moving feast but will probably only be an issue further down the line if HMRC audit the claims.

    Agreed. I think they are going to have to give quite a lot of SMEs some slack on the precise way it has been implemented in each firm.
    I think they already are - and that extends to big groups as well.

    Just been on a call this morning with a 'peer group' taken from a fairly wide range of big business and several were saying that they have never known HMRC to be so helpful and flexible. In particular, one opposite number who worked in a large hotel chain said that HMRC had agreed with minimal checks for them to defer their PAYE payments by 3 months - effectively all they did was to get in touch and say how much it was.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,623
    Not sure you can say the job retention scheme is operating at all yet really, as employers can't start to apply for their refunds until 20th April. then how long will it take for them to be paid? Will some employers have run out of cash by then, especially bearing in mind how slow some councils are being at processing the small business rate relief grants?

    Yes plenty of people have been furloughed, but the key comes at this month's payday.

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