Things you have recently learnt
Comments
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I see we are back to the dynasty debate.rick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.
Sorry, nepo babies.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.0 -
How many northern accents do you hear?surrey_commuter said:
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.0 -
There's a lad in my building in the City who's dad went to the same Blackburn primary school as me, there's three of us, 2 in my office and the aforementioned lad from there.0
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In our office of 15 we have 4 locals (1 'posh' 3 not), 2 Northern UK, 1 Home Counties, 2 Bristolian.rick_chasey said:
How many northern accents do you hear?surrey_commuter said:
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry said:
In our office of 15 we have 4 locals (1 'posh' 3 not), 2 Northern UK, 1 Home Counties, 2 Bristolian.rick_chasey said:
How many northern accents do you hear?surrey_commuter said:
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.
I bet they don't have proper Bristolian accents - sadly, a vanishingly rare thing these days.0 -
Do they get a pass if they still refer to everyone as "my lover"?briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
In our office of 15 we have 4 locals (1 'posh' 3 not), 2 Northern UK, 1 Home Counties, 2 Bristolian.rick_chasey said:
How many northern accents do you hear?surrey_commuter said:
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.
I bet they don't have proper Bristolian accents - sadly, a vanishingly rare thing these days.0 -
What counts as posh? I'm struggling with Rick's view of London posh and you've added to it.rjsterry said:
In our office of 15 we have 4 locals (1 'posh' 3 not), 2 Northern UK, 1 Home Counties, 2 Bristolian.rick_chasey said:
How many northern accents do you hear?surrey_commuter said:
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.0 -
TheBigBean said:
Do they get a pass if they still refer to everyone as "my lover"?briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
In our office of 15 we have 4 locals (1 'posh' 3 not), 2 Northern UK, 1 Home Counties, 2 Bristolian.rick_chasey said:
How many northern accents do you hear?surrey_commuter said:
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.
I bet they don't have proper Bristolian accents - sadly, a vanishingly rare thing these days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyKzYBRfyfw
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https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/the-role-of-luck-in-life-success-is-far-greater-than-we-realized/
Here’s someone who’s put some numbers behind it. He spells out his workings so knock yourselves out.0 -
(Actually really enjoying the discussion).
My view unless all industries and structures are actually representative of background, it’s hard to argue labour markets are efficient and ergo that they reward people fairly.
In general, my thesis is that luck (or randomness or chance, same thing) defines the parameters and ceiling of success, within reason (we’re talking likelihoods still), and that ability and work ethic determines where within those parameters you do.
To make an extreme illustrative example. The daughter of a crackhead in Burundi is much less likely to be a global 1% earner than the son of a top US lawyer in NYC, regardless of work ethic and ability, which say, is hypothetically the same.
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In my sector when a company pays more than the market norm it is usually a sign that they are struggling with staff turnover due to other factors (problems) within their business. I moved to one myself a few jobs back, the senior management were a joke with no direction and every quarter they made redundancies to balance the books then had to pay more to entice someone else in. I went there with my eyes open luckily and it was only ever a stepping stone.rjsterry said:
Ok, why do you think they like to pay a lot (or is it actually the other firm that is in trouble and can't afford more?). It definitely isn't because they are nice guys. As TBB said that just leads to failure.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
They must be hoping offering more achieves something.
And they may have made a mistake and they can't actually sustain that level of pay.
It’s not always the case though, as you say the company I was at prior to that and pre-GFC paid really well because they had a major tie up with Tesco who were expanding massively and who at that time had a really good framework. Combined with a smallish company with pretty low turnover it meant they could offer salaries quite well above market rates. It worked well both ways for their first decade in business as they attracted good people who stayed there. It went downhill after the GFC though.0 -
No, neither of us. At one point there were three of us - all with no strong accent. Bizarrely the former colleague had deliberately lost his accent as a student because someone had told him that an architect shouldn't sound like that. A bit sad, really.briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
In our office of 15 we have 4 locals (1 'posh' 3 not), 2 Northern UK, 1 Home Counties, 2 Bristolian.rick_chasey said:
How many northern accents do you hear?surrey_commuter said:
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.
I bet they don't have proper Bristolian accents - sadly, a vanishingly rare thing these days.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry said:
No, neither of us. At one point there were three of us - all with no strong accent. Bizarrely the former colleague had deliberately lost his accent as a student because someone had told him that an architect shouldn't sound like that. A bit sad, really.briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
In our office of 15 we have 4 locals (1 'posh' 3 not), 2 Northern UK, 1 Home Counties, 2 Bristolian.rick_chasey said:
How many northern accents do you hear?surrey_commuter said:
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.
I bet they don't have proper Bristolian accents - sadly, a vanishingly rare thing these days.
Yep, I've not got one either - I'm from one of the somewhat posher areas of North Bristol (not Sneyd Park though!), and there was only one proper Bristolian accent at my Direct Grant school, as far as I remember, and that was 45 years ago. Would be even scarcer now.0 -
Fairness has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's about paying enough to attract and retain the right people while balancing that against what you can sustain. Obviously there are lots of reasons why an employer might make an incorrect calculation of what that pay should be and that will then appear to be 'unfair', but it won't last. Sooner or later gravity will take effect.rick_chasey said:(Actually really enjoying the discussion).
My view unless all industries and structures are actually representative of background, it’s hard to argue labour markets are efficient and ergo that they reward people fairly.
In general, my thesis is that luck (or randomness or chance, same thing) defines the parameters and ceiling of success, within reason (we’re talking likelihoods still), and that ability and work ethic determines where within those parameters you do.
To make an extreme illustrative example. The daughter of a crackhead in Burundi is much less likely to be a global 1% earner than the son of a top US lawyer in NYC, regardless of work ethic and ability, which say, is hypothetically the same.
The variation between different industries and sectors within those industries relates to how much value the business can provide to their clients or customers.
I do agree with the general idea that chance plays an important role.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
They will have to retake the 'Respect' training course.TheBigBean said:
Do they get a pass if they still refer to everyone as "my lover"?briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
In our office of 15 we have 4 locals (1 'posh' 3 not), 2 Northern UK, 1 Home Counties, 2 Bristolian.rick_chasey said:
How many northern accents do you hear?surrey_commuter said:
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.
I bet they don't have proper Bristolian accents - sadly, a vanishingly rare thing these days.
This isn't as new as many suggest - remember my brother who worked in estates dept of a hospital moaning about it years back. Nottingham plumbers were not happy having 'me duck' banned.0 -
Similar here. I've heard of a couple where the higher pay appears to be compensating for something.Pross said:
In my sector when a company pays more than the market norm it is usually a sign that they are struggling with staff turnover due to other factors (problems) within their business. I moved to one myself a few jobs back, the senior management were a joke with no direction and every quarter they made redundancies to balance the books then had to pay more to entice someone else in. I went there with my eyes open luckily and it was only ever a stepping stone.rjsterry said:
Ok, why do you think they like to pay a lot (or is it actually the other firm that is in trouble and can't afford more?). It definitely isn't because they are nice guys. As TBB said that just leads to failure.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
They must be hoping offering more achieves something.
And they may have made a mistake and they can't actually sustain that level of pay.
It’s not always the case though, as you say the company I was at prior to that and pre-GFC paid really well because they had a major tie up with Tesco who were expanding massively and who at that time had a really good framework. Combined with a smallish company with pretty low turnover it meant they could offer salaries quite well above market rates. It worked well both ways for their first decade in business as they attracted good people who stayed there. It went downhill after the GFC though.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
In my branch of HE there are a lot more regional accents amonst academics than when I studied. Probably a result of us oiks making it up the ladder in the 80s and 90s. Maybe this is going backwards as more middle income parents choose to send dariling children to private school.rjsterry said:
No, neither of us. At one point there were three of us - all with no strong accent. Bizarrely the former colleague had deliberately lost his accent as a student because someone had told him that an architect shouldn't sound like that. A bit sad, really.briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
In our office of 15 we have 4 locals (1 'posh' 3 not), 2 Northern UK, 1 Home Counties, 2 Bristolian.rick_chasey said:
How many northern accents do you hear?surrey_commuter said:
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.
I bet they don't have proper Bristolian accents - sadly, a vanishingly rare thing these days.0 -
Yeah you’re right, fair is the wrong word. Market equilibrium is never actually met.rjsterry said:
Fairness has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's about paying enough to attract and retain the right people while balancing that against what you can sustain. Obviously there are lots of reasons why an employer might make an incorrect calculation of what that pay should be and that will then appear to be 'unfair', but it won't last. Sooner or later gravity will take effect.rick_chasey said:(Actually really enjoying the discussion).
My view unless all industries and structures are actually representative of background, it’s hard to argue labour markets are efficient and ergo that they reward people fairly.
In general, my thesis is that luck (or randomness or chance, same thing) defines the parameters and ceiling of success, within reason (we’re talking likelihoods still), and that ability and work ethic determines where within those parameters you do.
To make an extreme illustrative example. The daughter of a crackhead in Burundi is much less likely to be a global 1% earner than the son of a top US lawyer in NYC, regardless of work ethic and ability, which say, is hypothetically the same.
The variation between different industries and sectors within those industries relates to how much value the business can provide to their clients or customers.
I do agree with the general idea that chance plays an important role.
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I'm not really sure I know what you are arguing. The highlighted point I made upthread in a very similar way and no one has disputed it.rick_chasey said:(Actually really enjoying the discussion).
My view unless all industries and structures are actually representative of background, it’s hard to argue labour markets are efficient and ergo that they reward people fairly.
In general, my thesis is that luck (or randomness or chance, same thing) defines the parameters and ceiling of success, within reason (we’re talking likelihoods still), and that ability and work ethic determines where within those parameters you do.
To make an extreme illustrative example. The daughter of a crackhead in Burundi is much less likely to be a global 1% earner than the son of a top US lawyer in NYC, regardless of work ethic and ability, which say, is hypothetically the same.
If I had to make a sweeping judgement, it is that you resent putting forward a mediocre candidate who earns a lot more than you and, in your eyes, is only in that place due to their upbringing/luck.
0 -
My fee is a proportion of the comp so I want them to be paid as much as possible.TheBigBean said:
I'm not really sure I know what you are arguing. The highlighted point I made upthread in a very similar way and no one has disputed it.rick_chasey said:(Actually really enjoying the discussion).
My view unless all industries and structures are actually representative of background, it’s hard to argue labour markets are efficient and ergo that they reward people fairly.
In general, my thesis is that luck (or randomness or chance, same thing) defines the parameters and ceiling of success, within reason (we’re talking likelihoods still), and that ability and work ethic determines where within those parameters you do.
To make an extreme illustrative example. The daughter of a crackhead in Burundi is much less likely to be a global 1% earner than the son of a top US lawyer in NYC, regardless of work ethic and ability, which say, is hypothetically the same.
If I had to make a sweeping judgement, it is that you resent putting forward a mediocre candidate who earns a lot more than you and, in your eyes, is only in that place due to their upbringing/luck.
I’m just explaining market equilibrium is not a thing seen in the wild.0 -
Amazing conflict that. You're paid more to give your client a worse deal.rick_chasey said:
My fee is a proportion of the comp so I want them to be paid as much as possible.TheBigBean said:
I'm not really sure I know what you are arguing. The highlighted point I made upthread in a very similar way and no one has disputed it.rick_chasey said:(Actually really enjoying the discussion).
My view unless all industries and structures are actually representative of background, it’s hard to argue labour markets are efficient and ergo that they reward people fairly.
In general, my thesis is that luck (or randomness or chance, same thing) defines the parameters and ceiling of success, within reason (we’re talking likelihoods still), and that ability and work ethic determines where within those parameters you do.
To make an extreme illustrative example. The daughter of a crackhead in Burundi is much less likely to be a global 1% earner than the son of a top US lawyer in NYC, regardless of work ethic and ability, which say, is hypothetically the same.
If I had to make a sweeping judgement, it is that you resent putting forward a mediocre candidate who earns a lot more than you and, in your eyes, is only in that place due to their upbringing/luck.
I’m just explaining market equilibrium is not a thing seen in the wild.0 -
Can work on a fixed fee too. They know what they’re signing.TheBigBean said:
Amazing conflict that. You're paid more to give your client a worse deal.rick_chasey said:
My fee is a proportion of the comp so I want them to be paid as much as possible.TheBigBean said:
I'm not really sure I know what you are arguing. The highlighted point I made upthread in a very similar way and no one has disputed it.rick_chasey said:(Actually really enjoying the discussion).
My view unless all industries and structures are actually representative of background, it’s hard to argue labour markets are efficient and ergo that they reward people fairly.
In general, my thesis is that luck (or randomness or chance, same thing) defines the parameters and ceiling of success, within reason (we’re talking likelihoods still), and that ability and work ethic determines where within those parameters you do.
To make an extreme illustrative example. The daughter of a crackhead in Burundi is much less likely to be a global 1% earner than the son of a top US lawyer in NYC, regardless of work ethic and ability, which say, is hypothetically the same.
If I had to make a sweeping judgement, it is that you resent putting forward a mediocre candidate who earns a lot more than you and, in your eyes, is only in that place due to their upbringing/luck.
I’m just explaining market equilibrium is not a thing seen in the wild.
And anyway, like I said, most firms aren’t looking for the cheapest.0 -
That excuse doesn't work with the FCA, so you're lucky.rick_chasey said:
Can work on a fixed fee too. They know what they’re signing.TheBigBean said:
Amazing conflict that. You're paid more to give your client a worse deal.rick_chasey said:
My fee is a proportion of the comp so I want them to be paid as much as possible.TheBigBean said:
I'm not really sure I know what you are arguing. The highlighted point I made upthread in a very similar way and no one has disputed it.rick_chasey said:(Actually really enjoying the discussion).
My view unless all industries and structures are actually representative of background, it’s hard to argue labour markets are efficient and ergo that they reward people fairly.
In general, my thesis is that luck (or randomness or chance, same thing) defines the parameters and ceiling of success, within reason (we’re talking likelihoods still), and that ability and work ethic determines where within those parameters you do.
To make an extreme illustrative example. The daughter of a crackhead in Burundi is much less likely to be a global 1% earner than the son of a top US lawyer in NYC, regardless of work ethic and ability, which say, is hypothetically the same.
If I had to make a sweeping judgement, it is that you resent putting forward a mediocre candidate who earns a lot more than you and, in your eyes, is only in that place due to their upbringing/luck.
I’m just explaining market equilibrium is not a thing seen in the wild.
And anyway, like I said, most firms aren’t looking for the cheapest.0 -
We’re very explicit with it.TheBigBean said:
That excuse doesn't work with the FCA, so you're lucky.rick_chasey said:
Can work on a fixed fee too. They know what they’re signing.TheBigBean said:
Amazing conflict that. You're paid more to give your client a worse deal.rick_chasey said:
My fee is a proportion of the comp so I want them to be paid as much as possible.TheBigBean said:
I'm not really sure I know what you are arguing. The highlighted point I made upthread in a very similar way and no one has disputed it.rick_chasey said:(Actually really enjoying the discussion).
My view unless all industries and structures are actually representative of background, it’s hard to argue labour markets are efficient and ergo that they reward people fairly.
In general, my thesis is that luck (or randomness or chance, same thing) defines the parameters and ceiling of success, within reason (we’re talking likelihoods still), and that ability and work ethic determines where within those parameters you do.
To make an extreme illustrative example. The daughter of a crackhead in Burundi is much less likely to be a global 1% earner than the son of a top US lawyer in NYC, regardless of work ethic and ability, which say, is hypothetically the same.
If I had to make a sweeping judgement, it is that you resent putting forward a mediocre candidate who earns a lot more than you and, in your eyes, is only in that place due to their upbringing/luck.
I’m just explaining market equilibrium is not a thing seen in the wild.
And anyway, like I said, most firms aren’t looking for the cheapest.
It’s literally the first thing they ask.
It’s quite common to go fixed fee, but they get annoyed when you then find them someone paid a tiny amount and the fee is 3/4 of their comp rather than 1/3rd.
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Eye knews a gurl called Liz. She was fram Bristle. Proper bristle.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Do they get a pass if they still refer to everyone as "my lover"?briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
In our office of 15 we have 4 locals (1 'posh' 3 not), 2 Northern UK, 1 Home Counties, 2 Bristolian.rick_chasey said:
How many northern accents do you hear?surrey_commuter said:
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.
I bet they don't have proper Bristolian accents - sadly, a vanishingly rare thing these days.
...but then in Naam (Cheltenaam) she twirked her language to fit... but then whens she waz 'avin a drink...
seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Wuz 'er gert lush?pinno said:
Eye knews a gurl called Liz. She was fram Bristle. Proper bristle.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Do they get a pass if they still refer to everyone as "my lover"?briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
In our office of 15 we have 4 locals (1 'posh' 3 not), 2 Northern UK, 1 Home Counties, 2 Bristolian.rick_chasey said:
How many northern accents do you hear?surrey_commuter said:
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.
I bet they don't have proper Bristolian accents - sadly, a vanishingly rare thing these days.
...but then in Naam (Cheltenaam) she twirked her language to fit... but then whens she waz 'avin a drink...
0 -
She waz and loved a cheeky glider.briantrumpet said:
Wuz 'er gert lush?pinno said:
Eye knews a gurl called Liz. She was fram Bristle. Proper bristle.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Do they get a pass if they still refer to everyone as "my lover"?briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
In our office of 15 we have 4 locals (1 'posh' 3 not), 2 Northern UK, 1 Home Counties, 2 Bristolian.rick_chasey said:
How many northern accents do you hear?surrey_commuter said:
You are talking about a tiny sub set, I meet very few Londoners at workrick_chasey said:
If you’re born in posh London you don’t have to give up where you grew up to chase the money.surrey_commuter said:
I think you are ignoring the motivation to earn big bucks. You could chose to get get a similar job locally for a better work life balance and you would earn far less money.rick_chasey said:
Lol not 7x. One is a US business and likes paying a lot and one isn’t.rjsterry said:
If you can only say "roughly the same job", then that differential has to be explained by other factors. I can think of roles in my industry that on paper look very similar, but are working in different sectors with different margins and different clients.rick_chasey said:
I’ve put forward candidates for the same role on £70k and £350k.rjsterry said:People don't have a fixed value, so I can't see how you can determine whether they are paid what they are worth.
They did roughly the same job and had roughly the same potential. One guy did it for a regional business, one guy for a big US business.
Labour markets are not efficient. At all.
The US people there aren’t all adding 7x the value.
Honestly, it’s my job to know what they do for a living; it’s the same job with different logos on the business cards.
It’s all luck and taking advantage of the luck.
I hear a dozen careers every day. It’s all the same story. “Just so happened” this, luckily that.
I count myself in this too. Even if iso get this thing off the ground, it’s all luck I even get to do it at all.
The people you know in Doncaster have chosen not to chase the potential big bucks in one of the world’s premier commercial cities. Their reasons are neither right nor wrong but it is not luck that they earn less. Anyway if they earn £40k in Doncaster they are probably far wealthier than somebody earning £60k in London.
It’s mainly luck.
I bet they don't have proper Bristolian accents - sadly, a vanishingly rare thing these days.
...but then in Naam (Cheltenaam) she twirked her language to fit... but then whens she waz 'avin a drink...seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Surely in any sales transaction there exists the motivation to rip the other party off. I agree the potential conflicts are mostly less blatant though.TheBigBean said:
Amazing conflict that. You're paid more to give your client a worse deal.rick_chasey said:
My fee is a proportion of the comp so I want them to be paid as much as possible.TheBigBean said:
I'm not really sure I know what you are arguing. The highlighted point I made upthread in a very similar way and no one has disputed it.rick_chasey said:(Actually really enjoying the discussion).
My view unless all industries and structures are actually representative of background, it’s hard to argue labour markets are efficient and ergo that they reward people fairly.
In general, my thesis is that luck (or randomness or chance, same thing) defines the parameters and ceiling of success, within reason (we’re talking likelihoods still), and that ability and work ethic determines where within those parameters you do.
To make an extreme illustrative example. The daughter of a crackhead in Burundi is much less likely to be a global 1% earner than the son of a top US lawyer in NYC, regardless of work ethic and ability, which say, is hypothetically the same.
If I had to make a sweeping judgement, it is that you resent putting forward a mediocre candidate who earns a lot more than you and, in your eyes, is only in that place due to their upbringing/luck.
I’m just explaining market equilibrium is not a thing seen in the wild.0 -
Like I said, firms are often not interested in paying as little as possible, especially in professional services.Jezyboy said:
Surely in any sales transaction there exists the motivation to rip the other party off. I agree the potential conflicts are mostly less blatant though.TheBigBean said:
Amazing conflict that. You're paid more to give your client a worse deal.rick_chasey said:
My fee is a proportion of the comp so I want them to be paid as much as possible.TheBigBean said:
I'm not really sure I know what you are arguing. The highlighted point I made upthread in a very similar way and no one has disputed it.rick_chasey said:(Actually really enjoying the discussion).
My view unless all industries and structures are actually representative of background, it’s hard to argue labour markets are efficient and ergo that they reward people fairly.
In general, my thesis is that luck (or randomness or chance, same thing) defines the parameters and ceiling of success, within reason (we’re talking likelihoods still), and that ability and work ethic determines where within those parameters you do.
To make an extreme illustrative example. The daughter of a crackhead in Burundi is much less likely to be a global 1% earner than the son of a top US lawyer in NYC, regardless of work ethic and ability, which say, is hypothetically the same.
If I had to make a sweeping judgement, it is that you resent putting forward a mediocre candidate who earns a lot more than you and, in your eyes, is only in that place due to their upbringing/luck.
I’m just explaining market equilibrium is not a thing seen in the wild.
Think of it a bit like footballers. Sure there are firms/teams who Moneyball, but the big successful ones will pay what they have to to both secure and keep the top talent.0
