Seemingly trivial things that intrigue you
Comments
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People tnd to get made managers because they are good at what they are doing, not becuase they show management potential.
I put myself on a course0 -
Whole company spent 2 days in a posh hotel doing a 'Winning Edge' course which seemed to be some kind of CBT performance enhancing technique. All I remember learning was that we tend to do whatever is dominant in our thoughts. Clearly true for some of us; I took the next day off to plumb in a new shower, and a couple of my Marketing colleagues promptly left to set up their own businesses...kingstongraham said:
I was sent on a management training course by my employer and it convinced me I didn't want to be a manager.
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Still going apparently...
"A Winning Edge Mindset enables you to manage your Thinking to Results®, with a confident, forward-thinking success-orientated approach, so you can uplevel your performance and cultivate what matters most"
Uplevel???0 -
No I'm actually quite good at it (although the nature of the people who do my job means it is a low bar), I just don't want to.rjsterry said:
While there are certain character traits that will help/hinder, it sounds like you were just sent on the wrong courses.First.Aspect said:
It doesn't make much difference in my experience. Such training either tells you how to suck eggs, or it is baffling fluffy nonsense. It depends whether or not you are a good manager or not in the first place.rick_chasey said:
Was explaining to my bosses that I spent a decade as a junior basically being bullied into doing the right things, so if they want me to manage people well they probably need to get me some formal teaching.First.Aspect said:You are going to make a great manager RC. Get people to the office and keep an eye on them...(stop them posting on social media, that sort of thing). Under no circumstances empower anyone.
Saying that, does anyone know how to get a decent workload or even a smidgen of initiative out of generation snowflake?
We have an industry wide problem of young people coming into the profession very much wanting to be spoon fed and not working past 6, even when they know this leaves a steaming pile for their boss to finish.
If you tell them anything isn't good enough, you either get tears or a complaint to HR. And no, it's not me...0 -
Can't help I'm afraid FA, it's the same predicament I have.
It's a super tight market and the feedback I give is that I am too harsh and critical. I genuinely feel I am being about 90% softer than anyone ever was to juniors when I was making my way up, but I am constantly reminded by my bosses that if they leave it's a nightmare, so we have to just suck it up....0 -
This was part of my course years ago. Only answer questions, and only do it at scheduled times. Junior has a monkey on their back and they are always trying to give it to you. Your job is to be very helpful in answering questions, but ensuring the monkey stays where it is. Tears/complaints weren't dealt with.First.Aspect said:
No I'm actually quite good at it (although the nature of the people who do my job means it is a low bar), I just don't want to.rjsterry said:
While there are certain character traits that will help/hinder, it sounds like you were just sent on the wrong courses.First.Aspect said:
It doesn't make much difference in my experience. Such training either tells you how to suck eggs, or it is baffling fluffy nonsense. It depends whether or not you are a good manager or not in the first place.rick_chasey said:
Was explaining to my bosses that I spent a decade as a junior basically being bullied into doing the right things, so if they want me to manage people well they probably need to get me some formal teaching.First.Aspect said:You are going to make a great manager RC. Get people to the office and keep an eye on them...(stop them posting on social media, that sort of thing). Under no circumstances empower anyone.
Saying that, does anyone know how to get a decent workload or even a smidgen of initiative out of generation snowflake?
We have an industry wide problem of young people coming into the profession very much wanting to be spoon fed and not working past 6, even when they know this leaves a steaming pile for their boss to finish.
If you tell them anything isn't good enough, you either get tears or a complaint to HR. And no, it's not me...0 -
I think a certain amount of pushback against the long hours and shouting at people culture is healthy.First.Aspect said:
No I'm actually quite good at it (although the nature of the people who do my job means it is a low bar), I just don't want to.rjsterry said:
While there are certain character traits that will help/hinder, it sounds like you were just sent on the wrong courses.First.Aspect said:
It doesn't make much difference in my experience. Such training either tells you how to suck eggs, or it is baffling fluffy nonsense. It depends whether or not you are a good manager or not in the first place.rick_chasey said:
Was explaining to my bosses that I spent a decade as a junior basically being bullied into doing the right things, so if they want me to manage people well they probably need to get me some formal teaching.First.Aspect said:You are going to make a great manager RC. Get people to the office and keep an eye on them...(stop them posting on social media, that sort of thing). Under no circumstances empower anyone.
Saying that, does anyone know how to get a decent workload or even a smidgen of initiative out of generation snowflake?
We have an industry wide problem of young people coming into the profession very much wanting to be spoon fed and not working past 6, even when they know this leaves a steaming pile for their boss to finish.
If you tell them anything isn't good enough, you either get tears or a complaint to HR. And no, it's not me...
Be more picky about who you hire. Make it clearer what you expect at interview. If you really want people to work 60hr weeks, don't pretend the hours are 9-6. Ask better questions to test whether they have the abilities you want. Once hired give people some agency in seeing rewards for improved productivity - if soft-pedalling gets you more or less the same as pushing yourself, why bother. I can't help you with reducing juniors to tears.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I had colleagues who had to attend a meeting with National Highways where at the start of the meeting everyone had to speak about how they were feeling. The people running the meeting were embarassed about it but had to go through with it as it's policy. My input had I been there would have been I was feeling very stressed by the amount of time they were taking approving the work presumably due to time being wasted in meetings.rick_chasey said:Every other week you see an article in whatever outlet about some company trying some radical work thing that everyone moans about; be it banning recurring meetings for more than 3 people or asking everyone to ask how they're feeling at the start of a meeting or whatever.
I wonder how many of these things actually work as you never hear the follow up.
My guess is that, by now, we've already arrived at something fairly optimal, and for most of us, the gripes are having to do things that *we* don't find useful but our superiors inevitably do, and because there are more juniors than seniors, it feels like lots of people agree.
Having said that, the massive reduction in presenteeism in offices post-covid would suggest that maybe there is some room for improvement, but I think the net benefit of it is less than we would hope; I think it's more empowering to workers but at the expense of the company.0 -
Very much this ^.surrey_commuter said:People tnd to get made managers because they are good at what they are doing, not becuase they show management potential.
Before I went self employed, I was 14 years a manager.
I loved it. In that 14 years I never raised my voice once, only handed out 1 formal warning and had an excellent staff retention rate.
A degree in HRM helped but being under so many managers from plain fcuking horrible to totally incompetent to very good (yes, there were a few), I had a yardstick.
I am not sure how a management course can replicate a 4 year degree in HRM though.
However, you should be able to see through this sh*t without a degree in HRM:
"A Winning Edge Mindset enables you to manage your Thinking to Results®, with a confident, forward-thinking success-orientated approach, so you can uplevel your performance and cultivate what matters most"
That ^ spiel is all about massaging the ego of the applicant and nothing about motivational theory or learning to understand a persons position or what they have to on a daily basis in order to do their jobs.
All managers sit within an organisational culture that will dictate/limit what freedom and scope a manager can have and no course is going to change that.
seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Careful now.rick_chasey said:Can't help I'm afraid FA, it's the same predicament I have.
It's a super tight market and the feedback I give is that I am too harsh and critical. I genuinely feel I am being about 90% softer than anyone ever was to juniors when I was making my way up, but I am constantly reminded by my bosses that if they leave it's a nightmare, so we have to just suck it up....
You are beginning to sound like a moaning old git. "Back in my day...". 😉The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
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There was a bloke, first name Guy who worked at Zurich life services. He was a complete and utter cnut. The sort of cnut you want to sink your head into.surrey_commuter said:People tnd to get made managers because they are good at what they are doing, not becuase they show management potential.
rick_chasey said:Hey look, the way I was managed was horrendous, so that is not the way to go.
There was another cnut at the Chelsea building society...
...oh and another cnut I took to tribunal and won.
Then there was Hector Castro (we called him Fidel for a giggle). Brilliant guy and Mario Vanini - another top bloke, top manager. They are like teachers; you always remember them.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Obviously a 2-day course is not going to replicate a degree, but it's a start if the person has no other training. Agree with your last point - much easier to make changes in an SME than a larger corporation.pinno said:
Very much this ^.surrey_commuter said:People tnd to get made managers because they are good at what they are doing, not becuase they show management potential.
Before I went self employed, I was 14 years a manager.
I loved it. In that 14 years I never raised my voice once, only handed out 1 formal warning and had an excellent staff retention rate.
A degree in HRM helped but being under so many managers from plain fcuking horrible to totally incompetent to very good (yes, there were a few), I had a yardstick.
I am not sure how a management course can replicate a 4 year degree in HRM though.
However, you should be able to see through this sh*t without a degree in HRM:
"A Winning Edge Mindset enables you to manage your Thinking to Results®, with a confident, forward-thinking success-orientated approach, so you can uplevel your performance and cultivate what matters most"
That ^ spiel is all about massaging the ego of the applicant and nothing about motivational theory or learning to understand a persons position or what they have to on a daily basis in order to do their jobs.
All managers sit within an organisational culture that will dictate/limit what freedom and scope a manager can have and no course is going to change that.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
We don't hire people already trained, in many cases. So you only find out whether a PhD/1st class hons is one of the ones who has aptitude for the job, or a block head, after a year or so. Even then, sometimes the penny can drop.rjsterry said:
I think a certain amount of pushback against the long hours and shouting at people culture is healthy.First.Aspect said:
No I'm actually quite good at it (although the nature of the people who do my job means it is a low bar), I just don't want to.rjsterry said:
While there are certain character traits that will help/hinder, it sounds like you were just sent on the wrong courses.First.Aspect said:
It doesn't make much difference in my experience. Such training either tells you how to suck eggs, or it is baffling fluffy nonsense. It depends whether or not you are a good manager or not in the first place.rick_chasey said:
Was explaining to my bosses that I spent a decade as a junior basically being bullied into doing the right things, so if they want me to manage people well they probably need to get me some formal teaching.First.Aspect said:You are going to make a great manager RC. Get people to the office and keep an eye on them...(stop them posting on social media, that sort of thing). Under no circumstances empower anyone.
Saying that, does anyone know how to get a decent workload or even a smidgen of initiative out of generation snowflake?
We have an industry wide problem of young people coming into the profession very much wanting to be spoon fed and not working past 6, even when they know this leaves a steaming pile for their boss to finish.
If you tell them anything isn't good enough, you either get tears or a complaint to HR. And no, it's not me...
Be more picky about who you hire. Make it clearer what you expect at interview. If you really want people to work 60hr weeks, don't pretend the hours are 9-6. Ask better questions to test whether they have the abilities you want. Once hired give people some agency in seeing rewards for improved productivity - if soft-pedalling gets you more or less the same as pushing yourself, why bother. I can't help you with reducing juniors to tears.
More the issue is getting the commitment out of them so you can figure out of they aren't progressing because they are not getting enough done, or because they are never going to get there no matter how much practice they get.
Basically, it's figuring out if we can transition them from what they might regard as "busy" when they were studying or as a postdoc, to what they need to be able to take on to justify the salaries they feel entitled to.0 -
I hate managing people, the best thing about my new job is my team is just me. Oddly, when leaving my old job two of my team said I was the best manager they'd had as I left them to get on with things but gave advice when they needed it (maybe I was just too soft and didn't work them hard enough!).0
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What would you say are the skills that differentiate between a good and an indifferent candidate?First.Aspect said:
We don't hire people already trained, in many cases. So you only find out whether a PhD/1st class hons is one of the ones who has aptitude for the job, or a block head, after a year or so. Even then, sometimes the penny can drop.rjsterry said:
I think a certain amount of pushback against the long hours and shouting at people culture is healthy.First.Aspect said:
No I'm actually quite good at it (although the nature of the people who do my job means it is a low bar), I just don't want to.rjsterry said:
While there are certain character traits that will help/hinder, it sounds like you were just sent on the wrong courses.First.Aspect said:
It doesn't make much difference in my experience. Such training either tells you how to suck eggs, or it is baffling fluffy nonsense. It depends whether or not you are a good manager or not in the first place.rick_chasey said:
Was explaining to my bosses that I spent a decade as a junior basically being bullied into doing the right things, so if they want me to manage people well they probably need to get me some formal teaching.First.Aspect said:You are going to make a great manager RC. Get people to the office and keep an eye on them...(stop them posting on social media, that sort of thing). Under no circumstances empower anyone.
Saying that, does anyone know how to get a decent workload or even a smidgen of initiative out of generation snowflake?
We have an industry wide problem of young people coming into the profession very much wanting to be spoon fed and not working past 6, even when they know this leaves a steaming pile for their boss to finish.
If you tell them anything isn't good enough, you either get tears or a complaint to HR. And no, it's not me...
Be more picky about who you hire. Make it clearer what you expect at interview. If you really want people to work 60hr weeks, don't pretend the hours are 9-6. Ask better questions to test whether they have the abilities you want. Once hired give people some agency in seeing rewards for improved productivity - if soft-pedalling gets you more or less the same as pushing yourself, why bother. I can't help you with reducing juniors to tears.
More the issue is getting the commitment out of them so you can figure out of they aren't progressing because they are not getting enough done, or because they are never going to get there no matter how much practice they get.
Basically, it's figuring out if we can transition them from what they might regard as "busy" when they were studying or as a postdoc, to what they need to be able to take on to justify the salaries they feel entitled to.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Hard to explain.rjsterry said:
What would you say are the skills that differentiate between a good and an indifferent candidate?First.Aspect said:
We don't hire people already trained, in many cases. So you only find out whether a PhD/1st class hons is one of the ones who has aptitude for the job, or a block head, after a year or so. Even then, sometimes the penny can drop.rjsterry said:
I think a certain amount of pushback against the long hours and shouting at people culture is healthy.First.Aspect said:
No I'm actually quite good at it (although the nature of the people who do my job means it is a low bar), I just don't want to.rjsterry said:
While there are certain character traits that will help/hinder, it sounds like you were just sent on the wrong courses.First.Aspect said:
It doesn't make much difference in my experience. Such training either tells you how to suck eggs, or it is baffling fluffy nonsense. It depends whether or not you are a good manager or not in the first place.rick_chasey said:
Was explaining to my bosses that I spent a decade as a junior basically being bullied into doing the right things, so if they want me to manage people well they probably need to get me some formal teaching.First.Aspect said:You are going to make a great manager RC. Get people to the office and keep an eye on them...(stop them posting on social media, that sort of thing). Under no circumstances empower anyone.
Saying that, does anyone know how to get a decent workload or even a smidgen of initiative out of generation snowflake?
We have an industry wide problem of young people coming into the profession very much wanting to be spoon fed and not working past 6, even when they know this leaves a steaming pile for their boss to finish.
If you tell them anything isn't good enough, you either get tears or a complaint to HR. And no, it's not me...
Be more picky about who you hire. Make it clearer what you expect at interview. If you really want people to work 60hr weeks, don't pretend the hours are 9-6. Ask better questions to test whether they have the abilities you want. Once hired give people some agency in seeing rewards for improved productivity - if soft-pedalling gets you more or less the same as pushing yourself, why bother. I can't help you with reducing juniors to tears.
More the issue is getting the commitment out of them so you can figure out of they aren't progressing because they are not getting enough done, or because they are never going to get there no matter how much practice they get.
Basically, it's figuring out if we can transition them from what they might regard as "busy" when they were studying or as a postdoc, to what they need to be able to take on to justify the salaries they feel entitled to.
As Ted Lasso would say, it's like pornography - difficult to define but you know it when you see it.
It is certainly not merely academic grades or industrial R&D experience, though. And we can't ask new trainees questions about patent law or inventions, because none of them have any knowledge or experience when they first join.
We just have to use a bit of spidey sense, some tried and tested noddy "invention spotting" tests, and some psychometrics.*
*(which we mostly refer to if our spidey sense suggests that the gregarious blue sky thinker we've just interviewed might not be happy working long hours alone, or if the highly ambitious person asking about partnership might not be patient enough to slog their guts out for a decade first).0 -
Is the bit in bold the problem? If you can't articulate it, how can you expect a new employee to achieve it other than by chance.First.Aspect said:
Hard to explain.rjsterry said:
What would you say are the skills that differentiate between a good and an indifferent candidate?First.Aspect said:
We don't hire people already trained, in many cases. So you only find out whether a PhD/1st class hons is one of the ones who has aptitude for the job, or a block head, after a year or so. Even then, sometimes the penny can drop.rjsterry said:
I think a certain amount of pushback against the long hours and shouting at people culture is healthy.First.Aspect said:
No I'm actually quite good at it (although the nature of the people who do my job means it is a low bar), I just don't want to.rjsterry said:
While there are certain character traits that will help/hinder, it sounds like you were just sent on the wrong courses.First.Aspect said:
It doesn't make much difference in my experience. Such training either tells you how to suck eggs, or it is baffling fluffy nonsense. It depends whether or not you are a good manager or not in the first place.rick_chasey said:
Was explaining to my bosses that I spent a decade as a junior basically being bullied into doing the right things, so if they want me to manage people well they probably need to get me some formal teaching.First.Aspect said:You are going to make a great manager RC. Get people to the office and keep an eye on them...(stop them posting on social media, that sort of thing). Under no circumstances empower anyone.
Saying that, does anyone know how to get a decent workload or even a smidgen of initiative out of generation snowflake?
We have an industry wide problem of young people coming into the profession very much wanting to be spoon fed and not working past 6, even when they know this leaves a steaming pile for their boss to finish.
If you tell them anything isn't good enough, you either get tears or a complaint to HR. And no, it's not me...
Be more picky about who you hire. Make it clearer what you expect at interview. If you really want people to work 60hr weeks, don't pretend the hours are 9-6. Ask better questions to test whether they have the abilities you want. Once hired give people some agency in seeing rewards for improved productivity - if soft-pedalling gets you more or less the same as pushing yourself, why bother. I can't help you with reducing juniors to tears.
More the issue is getting the commitment out of them so you can figure out of they aren't progressing because they are not getting enough done, or because they are never going to get there no matter how much practice they get.
Basically, it's figuring out if we can transition them from what they might regard as "busy" when they were studying or as a postdoc, to what they need to be able to take on to justify the salaries they feel entitled to.
As Ted Lasso would say, it's like pornography - difficult to define but you know it when you see it.
It is certainly not merely academic grades or industrial R&D experience, though. And we can't ask new trainees questions about patent law or inventions, because none of them have any knowledge or experience when they first join.
We just have to use a bit of spidey sense, some tried and tested noddy "invention spotting" tests, and some psychometrics.*
*(which we mostly refer to if our spidey sense suggests that the gregarious blue sky thinker we've just interviewed might not be happy working long hours alone, or if the highly ambitious person asking about partnership might not be patient enough to slog their guts out for a decade first).1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I had a job interview about 18 months ago that would have been something very different within a well known testing organisation. I couldn't really fathom what the role involved from the job specification and initial conversations with their recruiitment team but they were looking for someone with my skills and experience and I was fancing a change of scenery. I had the interview and tried to tease out some more information from the two people interviewing who would have been my managers but they couldn't explain what they wanted from the role and just kept saying it was a new role that I could shape to what I wanted without even giving me a rough idea of what their expectations were. I glazed over after a while of this and the feedback was that I didn't seem interested in the position, my response was that no-one seemed to know what the position was.rjsterry said:
Is the bit in bold the problem? If you can't articulate it, how can you expect a new employee to achieve it other than by chance.First.Aspect said:
Hard to explain.rjsterry said:
What would you say are the skills that differentiate between a good and an indifferent candidate?First.Aspect said:
We don't hire people already trained, in many cases. So you only find out whether a PhD/1st class hons is one of the ones who has aptitude for the job, or a block head, after a year or so. Even then, sometimes the penny can drop.rjsterry said:
I think a certain amount of pushback against the long hours and shouting at people culture is healthy.First.Aspect said:
No I'm actually quite good at it (although the nature of the people who do my job means it is a low bar), I just don't want to.rjsterry said:
While there are certain character traits that will help/hinder, it sounds like you were just sent on the wrong courses.First.Aspect said:
It doesn't make much difference in my experience. Such training either tells you how to suck eggs, or it is baffling fluffy nonsense. It depends whether or not you are a good manager or not in the first place.rick_chasey said:
Was explaining to my bosses that I spent a decade as a junior basically being bullied into doing the right things, so if they want me to manage people well they probably need to get me some formal teaching.First.Aspect said:You are going to make a great manager RC. Get people to the office and keep an eye on them...(stop them posting on social media, that sort of thing). Under no circumstances empower anyone.
Saying that, does anyone know how to get a decent workload or even a smidgen of initiative out of generation snowflake?
We have an industry wide problem of young people coming into the profession very much wanting to be spoon fed and not working past 6, even when they know this leaves a steaming pile for their boss to finish.
If you tell them anything isn't good enough, you either get tears or a complaint to HR. And no, it's not me...
Be more picky about who you hire. Make it clearer what you expect at interview. If you really want people to work 60hr weeks, don't pretend the hours are 9-6. Ask better questions to test whether they have the abilities you want. Once hired give people some agency in seeing rewards for improved productivity - if soft-pedalling gets you more or less the same as pushing yourself, why bother. I can't help you with reducing juniors to tears.
More the issue is getting the commitment out of them so you can figure out of they aren't progressing because they are not getting enough done, or because they are never going to get there no matter how much practice they get.
Basically, it's figuring out if we can transition them from what they might regard as "busy" when they were studying or as a postdoc, to what they need to be able to take on to justify the salaries they feel entitled to.
As Ted Lasso would say, it's like pornography - difficult to define but you know it when you see it.
It is certainly not merely academic grades or industrial R&D experience, though. And we can't ask new trainees questions about patent law or inventions, because none of them have any knowledge or experience when they first join.
We just have to use a bit of spidey sense, some tried and tested noddy "invention spotting" tests, and some psychometrics.*
*(which we mostly refer to if our spidey sense suggests that the gregarious blue sky thinker we've just interviewed might not be happy working long hours alone, or if the highly ambitious person asking about partnership might not be patient enough to slog their guts out for a decade first).0 -
I didn't buy the bloody thing. I even told Mrs. 666 and Junior they were wasting wasting their money as they would hardly ever use it. It's nice to be rightpinno said:
A decent turbo trainer or a set of rollers is infinitely better than a static - they don't compare. Statics are decrepit things. What era are you living in?Stevo_666 said:
I do go a bit cold turkey if I don't exercise for a while. Its just the mental block on using static stuff that I can't get past - we actually have a cheapo static bike that my Mrs. 666 and junior bought for themselves - its in the corner of the dining room looking a bit dusty.pinno said:
Continuity innit (for me): get fit and stay fit/strong. I hate getting back into shape after an absence. When I am pedalling, I love being in that zone where i'm just pedalling and not even conscious of the fact that I am pedalling - i'm thinking of other things and observing what's around me,Stevo_666 said:I'm intrigued how many people think static bikes are anything other than deadly boring (same goes for treadmills, rowing machines etc). Static anything does my nut in and the most I've ever managed on a static bike is 20 minutes before I feel the burning need to get off.
I get the bit about keeping up the miles when the weather is rubbish, but apart from that, no thanks.
But you are obviously not in that groove or gagging for a pedal if you go x number of days without one.
I get excess energy and I cannot sleep. Mostly in summer, less in winter.
There's other factors too.
I don't need to to don loads of winter clothing; I go for a blast, get straight off and into a shower.
I put my headphones on and can be in my own world for an hour or so in the warmth, dry.
If I don't have time (my average ride time outdoors last year was 1hr49 mins), then the rollers will do.
I find that a bit of planning around the weather or failing that some warm waterproof kit and a moderate dose of MTFU does the trick for me
Come to Jockland and i'll even give you a push into the gale and rain to get you going. "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Hard to explain to non-patent professions or aspiring patent professionals.rjsterry said:
Is the bit in bold the problem? If you can't articulate it, how can you expect a new employee to achieve it other than by chance.First.Aspect said:
Hard to explain.rjsterry said:
What would you say are the skills that differentiate between a good and an indifferent candidate?First.Aspect said:
We don't hire people already trained, in many cases. So you only find out whether a PhD/1st class hons is one of the ones who has aptitude for the job, or a block head, after a year or so. Even then, sometimes the penny can drop.rjsterry said:
I think a certain amount of pushback against the long hours and shouting at people culture is healthy.First.Aspect said:
No I'm actually quite good at it (although the nature of the people who do my job means it is a low bar), I just don't want to.rjsterry said:
While there are certain character traits that will help/hinder, it sounds like you were just sent on the wrong courses.First.Aspect said:
It doesn't make much difference in my experience. Such training either tells you how to suck eggs, or it is baffling fluffy nonsense. It depends whether or not you are a good manager or not in the first place.rick_chasey said:
Was explaining to my bosses that I spent a decade as a junior basically being bullied into doing the right things, so if they want me to manage people well they probably need to get me some formal teaching.First.Aspect said:You are going to make a great manager RC. Get people to the office and keep an eye on them...(stop them posting on social media, that sort of thing). Under no circumstances empower anyone.
Saying that, does anyone know how to get a decent workload or even a smidgen of initiative out of generation snowflake?
We have an industry wide problem of young people coming into the profession very much wanting to be spoon fed and not working past 6, even when they know this leaves a steaming pile for their boss to finish.
If you tell them anything isn't good enough, you either get tears or a complaint to HR. And no, it's not me...
Be more picky about who you hire. Make it clearer what you expect at interview. If you really want people to work 60hr weeks, don't pretend the hours are 9-6. Ask better questions to test whether they have the abilities you want. Once hired give people some agency in seeing rewards for improved productivity - if soft-pedalling gets you more or less the same as pushing yourself, why bother. I can't help you with reducing juniors to tears.
More the issue is getting the commitment out of them so you can figure out of they aren't progressing because they are not getting enough done, or because they are never going to get there no matter how much practice they get.
Basically, it's figuring out if we can transition them from what they might regard as "busy" when they were studying or as a postdoc, to what they need to be able to take on to justify the salaries they feel entitled to.
As Ted Lasso would say, it's like pornography - difficult to define but you know it when you see it.
It is certainly not merely academic grades or industrial R&D experience, though. And we can't ask new trainees questions about patent law or inventions, because none of them have any knowledge or experience when they first join.
We just have to use a bit of spidey sense, some tried and tested noddy "invention spotting" tests, and some psychometrics.*
*(which we mostly refer to if our spidey sense suggests that the gregarious blue sky thinker we've just interviewed might not be happy working long hours alone, or if the highly ambitious person asking about partnership might not be patient enough to slog their guts out for a decade first).
I'm happy to try but you'll die of boredom.
In the context of the day to day work, explaining what we need and what is wrong with what someone is doing is quite easy.
But before someone starts, it is hard to say how they will adapt.
The greatest issue, and the one that I can't get my head around, is how we get any of those of a certain generation to try hard enough to figure shit out for themselves eather than asking teacher (me), or act like they want to be doing my job or higher, in 10 years time.0 -
This is the point I posted above. If you are always available to answer questions, they will always ask. If you instead schedule a time to go through questions and only answer questions at that time, you will probably find that the quality and thought behind the questions increases considerably. Then you just need to make sure that you leave the meeting with no additional work.First.Aspect said:
The greatest issue, and the one that I can't get my head around, is how we get any of those of a certain generation to try hard enough to figure censored out for themselves eather than asking teacher (me), or act like they want to be doing my job or higher, in 10 years time.
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Yes this does work to an extent.TheBigBean said:
This is the point I posted above. If you are always available to answer questions, they will always ask. If you instead schedule a time to go through questions and only answer questions at that time, you will probably find that the quality and thought behind the questions increases considerably. Then you just need to make sure that you leave the meeting with no additional work.First.Aspect said:
The greatest issue, and the one that I can't get my head around, is how we get any of those of a certain generation to try hard enough to figure censored out for themselves eather than asking teacher (me), or act like they want to be doing my job or higher, in 10 years time.
Or alternatively they run down the clock and expect "tried my best but I couldnt quite do it, by the way I am on holiday next week" to merit a pat on the head.
Ours is a job defined by a myriad of statutory deadlines you see, so one way or another in that situation someone is left holding a warm bag of poo that needs disposing of.
I did that whilst training I'd take my freshly torn new arsole back to my office and work the weekend so my boss could play golf, whereas generation snowflake gets annoyed or teary if we point out that it's not okay to give me a bag of poo.0 -
If you are hiring people straight out of HE, and that HE doesn't have a vocational component then someone in your organisation needs to do the training. And probably that training needs to be more structured than just hoping they'll pick it up. I do sympathise as I keep finding new things that I think our junior staff should have learnt already but apparently haven't. That said they often bring in new skills that we don't have. Another thing is making sure that they ask enough questions: they often don't know what they don't know.First.Aspect said:
Hard to explain to non-patent professions or aspiring patent professionals.rjsterry said:
Is the bit in bold the problem? If you can't articulate it, how can you expect a new employee to achieve it other than by chance.First.Aspect said:
Hard to explain.rjsterry said:
What would you say are the skills that differentiate between a good and an indifferent candidate?First.Aspect said:
We don't hire people already trained, in many cases. So you only find out whether a PhD/1st class hons is one of the ones who has aptitude for the job, or a block head, after a year or so. Even then, sometimes the penny can drop.rjsterry said:
I think a certain amount of pushback against the long hours and shouting at people culture is healthy.First.Aspect said:
No I'm actually quite good at it (although the nature of the people who do my job means it is a low bar), I just don't want to.rjsterry said:
While there are certain character traits that will help/hinder, it sounds like you were just sent on the wrong courses.First.Aspect said:
It doesn't make much difference in my experience. Such training either tells you how to suck eggs, or it is baffling fluffy nonsense. It depends whether or not you are a good manager or not in the first place.rick_chasey said:
Was explaining to my bosses that I spent a decade as a junior basically being bullied into doing the right things, so if they want me to manage people well they probably need to get me some formal teaching.First.Aspect said:You are going to make a great manager RC. Get people to the office and keep an eye on them...(stop them posting on social media, that sort of thing). Under no circumstances empower anyone.
Saying that, does anyone know how to get a decent workload or even a smidgen of initiative out of generation snowflake?
We have an industry wide problem of young people coming into the profession very much wanting to be spoon fed and not working past 6, even when they know this leaves a steaming pile for their boss to finish.
If you tell them anything isn't good enough, you either get tears or a complaint to HR. And no, it's not me...
Be more picky about who you hire. Make it clearer what you expect at interview. If you really want people to work 60hr weeks, don't pretend the hours are 9-6. Ask better questions to test whether they have the abilities you want. Once hired give people some agency in seeing rewards for improved productivity - if soft-pedalling gets you more or less the same as pushing yourself, why bother. I can't help you with reducing juniors to tears.
More the issue is getting the commitment out of them so you can figure out of they aren't progressing because they are not getting enough done, or because they are never going to get there no matter how much practice they get.
Basically, it's figuring out if we can transition them from what they might regard as "busy" when they were studying or as a postdoc, to what they need to be able to take on to justify the salaries they feel entitled to.
As Ted Lasso would say, it's like pornography - difficult to define but you know it when you see it.
It is certainly not merely academic grades or industrial R&D experience, though. And we can't ask new trainees questions about patent law or inventions, because none of them have any knowledge or experience when they first join.
We just have to use a bit of spidey sense, some tried and tested noddy "invention spotting" tests, and some psychometrics.*
*(which we mostly refer to if our spidey sense suggests that the gregarious blue sky thinker we've just interviewed might not be happy working long hours alone, or if the highly ambitious person asking about partnership might not be patient enough to slog their guts out for a decade first).
I'm happy to try but you'll die of boredom.
In the context of the day to day work, explaining what we need and what is wrong with what someone is doing is quite easy.
But before someone starts, it is hard to say how they will adapt.
The greatest issue, and the one that I can't get my head around, is how we get any of those of a certain generation to try hard enough to figure censored out for themselves eather than asking teacher (me), or act like they want to be doing my job or higher, in 10 years time.
As regards boring me to death, I was looking up the RMT's finances last night, so do your worst 😀.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Understandably you don't know enough about this profession. It is tiny (look it up - there are 30 architects for every patent attorney, which is a fun new metric).rjsterry said:
If you are hiring people straight out of HE, and that HE doesn't have a vocational component then someone in your organisation needs to do the training. And probably that training needs to be more structured than just hoping they'll pick it up. I do sympathise as I keep finding new things that I think our junior staff should have learnt already but apparently haven't. That said they often bring in new skills that we don't have. Another thing is making sure that they ask enough questions: they often don't know what they don't know.First.Aspect said:
Hard to explain to non-patent professions or aspiring patent professionals.rjsterry said:
Is the bit in bold the problem? If you can't articulate it, how can you expect a new employee to achieve it other than by chance.First.Aspect said:
Hard to explain.rjsterry said:
What would you say are the skills that differentiate between a good and an indifferent candidate?First.Aspect said:
We don't hire people already trained, in many cases. So you only find out whether a PhD/1st class hons is one of the ones who has aptitude for the job, or a block head, after a year or so. Even then, sometimes the penny can drop.rjsterry said:
I think a certain amount of pushback against the long hours and shouting at people culture is healthy.First.Aspect said:
No I'm actually quite good at it (although the nature of the people who do my job means it is a low bar), I just don't want to.rjsterry said:
While there are certain character traits that will help/hinder, it sounds like you were just sent on the wrong courses.First.Aspect said:
It doesn't make much difference in my experience. Such training either tells you how to suck eggs, or it is baffling fluffy nonsense. It depends whether or not you are a good manager or not in the first place.rick_chasey said:
Was explaining to my bosses that I spent a decade as a junior basically being bullied into doing the right things, so if they want me to manage people well they probably need to get me some formal teaching.First.Aspect said:You are going to make a great manager RC. Get people to the office and keep an eye on them...(stop them posting on social media, that sort of thing). Under no circumstances empower anyone.
Saying that, does anyone know how to get a decent workload or even a smidgen of initiative out of generation snowflake?
We have an industry wide problem of young people coming into the profession very much wanting to be spoon fed and not working past 6, even when they know this leaves a steaming pile for their boss to finish.
If you tell them anything isn't good enough, you either get tears or a complaint to HR. And no, it's not me...
Be more picky about who you hire. Make it clearer what you expect at interview. If you really want people to work 60hr weeks, don't pretend the hours are 9-6. Ask better questions to test whether they have the abilities you want. Once hired give people some agency in seeing rewards for improved productivity - if soft-pedalling gets you more or less the same as pushing yourself, why bother. I can't help you with reducing juniors to tears.
More the issue is getting the commitment out of them so you can figure out of they aren't progressing because they are not getting enough done, or because they are never going to get there no matter how much practice they get.
Basically, it's figuring out if we can transition them from what they might regard as "busy" when they were studying or as a postdoc, to what they need to be able to take on to justify the salaries they feel entitled to.
As Ted Lasso would say, it's like pornography - difficult to define but you know it when you see it.
It is certainly not merely academic grades or industrial R&D experience, though. And we can't ask new trainees questions about patent law or inventions, because none of them have any knowledge or experience when they first join.
We just have to use a bit of spidey sense, some tried and tested noddy "invention spotting" tests, and some psychometrics.*
*(which we mostly refer to if our spidey sense suggests that the gregarious blue sky thinker we've just interviewed might not be happy working long hours alone, or if the highly ambitious person asking about partnership might not be patient enough to slog their guts out for a decade first).
I'm happy to try but you'll die of boredom.
In the context of the day to day work, explaining what we need and what is wrong with what someone is doing is quite easy.
But before someone starts, it is hard to say how they will adapt.
The greatest issue, and the one that I can't get my head around, is how we get any of those of a certain generation to try hard enough to figure censored out for themselves eather than asking teacher (me), or act like they want to be doing my job or higher, in 10 years time.
As regards boring me to death, I was looking up the RMT's finances last night, so challenge accepted 😀.
There is no vocational training from any university. And we don't put any weight to people who do IP modules or anything like that, because anyone can learn the basics or the law. Not remotely the same as applying it. In fact, academics are wrecking balls of irrelevance to my work.
The closest analogy to us is actuaries, where graduates from chemistry or physics are hired and shelled out if they are incumbered by a personality, or can't do maths.
For us though, a good attorney takes 5ish years to qualify and at least a couple more to be the "finished" article who you can safely not supervise. We therefore suffer from the eternal hope that someone who is struggling at year two will get there in the end. We get trapped by being in for a penny, basically.
Most attrition comes from suppressing the huge salary rises people think they will get, merely because they have passed an exam but are still useless, or people failing exams and giving up because they mistskenly believe thats the limiting factor, people who are miserable (it isnt for everyone, or many to be honest), or to very tiny firms that only unfortunate private inventors know about.0 -
Haha, a good friend of mine is an IP specialist. His training? Huddersfield School of Music.0
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Interned with a patent lawyer for a month.
Not a good job for me.
He’d throw me examples of old cases and I’d have to guess if the patent was breached or whatever it’s called.
Might as well have coin flipped.0 -
Separately, and sorry this is an interesting discussion for me, we do loads of training internally.rjsterry said:
If you are hiring people straight out of HE, and that HE doesn't have a vocational component then someone in your organisation needs to do the training. And probably that training needs to be more structured than just hoping they'll pick it up. I do sympathise as I keep finding new things that I think our junior staff should have learnt already but apparently haven't. That said they often bring in new skills that we don't have. Another thing is making sure that they ask enough questions: they often don't know what they don't know.First.Aspect said:
Hard to explain to non-patent professions or aspiring patent professionals.rjsterry said:
Is the bit in bold the problem? If you can't articulate it, how can you expect a new employee to achieve it other than by chance.First.Aspect said:
Hard to explain.rjsterry said:
What would you say are the skills that differentiate between a good and an indifferent candidate?First.Aspect said:
We don't hire people already trained, in many cases. So you only find out whether a PhD/1st class hons is one of the ones who has aptitude for the job, or a block head, after a year or so. Even then, sometimes the penny can drop.rjsterry said:
I think a certain amount of pushback against the long hours and shouting at people culture is healthy.First.Aspect said:
No I'm actually quite good at it (although the nature of the people who do my job means it is a low bar), I just don't want to.rjsterry said:
While there are certain character traits that will help/hinder, it sounds like you were just sent on the wrong courses.First.Aspect said:
It doesn't make much difference in my experience. Such training either tells you how to suck eggs, or it is baffling fluffy nonsense. It depends whether or not you are a good manager or not in the first place.rick_chasey said:
Was explaining to my bosses that I spent a decade as a junior basically being bullied into doing the right things, so if they want me to manage people well they probably need to get me some formal teaching.First.Aspect said:You are going to make a great manager RC. Get people to the office and keep an eye on them...(stop them posting on social media, that sort of thing). Under no circumstances empower anyone.
Saying that, does anyone know how to get a decent workload or even a smidgen of initiative out of generation snowflake?
We have an industry wide problem of young people coming into the profession very much wanting to be spoon fed and not working past 6, even when they know this leaves a steaming pile for their boss to finish.
If you tell them anything isn't good enough, you either get tears or a complaint to HR. And no, it's not me...
Be more picky about who you hire. Make it clearer what you expect at interview. If you really want people to work 60hr weeks, don't pretend the hours are 9-6. Ask better questions to test whether they have the abilities you want. Once hired give people some agency in seeing rewards for improved productivity - if soft-pedalling gets you more or less the same as pushing yourself, why bother. I can't help you with reducing juniors to tears.
More the issue is getting the commitment out of them so you can figure out of they aren't progressing because they are not getting enough done, or because they are never going to get there no matter how much practice they get.
Basically, it's figuring out if we can transition them from what they might regard as "busy" when they were studying or as a postdoc, to what they need to be able to take on to justify the salaries they feel entitled to.
As Ted Lasso would say, it's like pornography - difficult to define but you know it when you see it.
It is certainly not merely academic grades or industrial R&D experience, though. And we can't ask new trainees questions about patent law or inventions, because none of them have any knowledge or experience when they first join.
We just have to use a bit of spidey sense, some tried and tested noddy "invention spotting" tests, and some psychometrics.*
*(which we mostly refer to if our spidey sense suggests that the gregarious blue sky thinker we've just interviewed might not be happy working long hours alone, or if the highly ambitious person asking about partnership might not be patient enough to slog their guts out for a decade first).
I'm happy to try but you'll die of boredom.
In the context of the day to day work, explaining what we need and what is wrong with what someone is doing is quite easy.
But before someone starts, it is hard to say how they will adapt.
The greatest issue, and the one that I can't get my head around, is how we get any of those of a certain generation to try hard enough to figure censored out for themselves eather than asking teacher (me), or act like they want to be doing my job or higher, in 10 years time.
As regards boring me to death, I was looking up the RMT's finances last night, so do your worst 😀.
I personally put about 50-100 hours a year into it, that I can be bothered to record. For a trainee, every single bit of work needs reviewing. To turn them into a not trainee, we red line it, or push it back with questions, have calls to point out issues without giving the answer, etc., or give up because we are out of time and just do it. 4 or 5 rounds back and forth isn't uncommon with someone several years in, to get something in range to be filed or sent to a client. The precision needed is insane.
We also do tutorials for the legal exams, and send them on courses.0 -
He can't be a patent attorney. And I'd be interested to know if he/she/they is/are a TM attorney or a solicitor (different professions in the UK) Or neither, which is worse, depending on the advice he/she/they is/are giving.briantrumpet said:Haha, a good friend of mine is an IP specialist. His training? Huddersfield School of Music.
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First.Aspect said:
He can't be a patent attorney. And I'd be interested to know if he/she/they is/are a TM attorney or a solicitor (different professions in the UK) Or neither, which is worse, depending on the advice he/she/they is/are giving.briantrumpet said:Haha, a good friend of mine is an IP specialist. His training? Huddersfield School of Music.
Not sure about his level of training, but I think he's into valuation, rather than the legal bit. I've never had the courage to ask how he went from music to IP.0
