Seemingly trivial things that intrigue you

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

And what do you know, even MLS has overtaken it...

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/12/09/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states/

But not American football? By quite some way.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

And what do you know, even MLS has overtaken it...

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/12/09/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states/

But not American football? By quite some way.

I'm not sure what your argument is RC. You've tried to argue that soccer isn't popular in the states. This is manifestly incorrect. Pointing to something that's more popular isn't an argument.

When you visit the US, can I suggest leaving the hotel and looking around? Football (not soccer) has really, really high (male) participation all the way through junior and high school. So does baseball and softball. You really need to get into suburban America at the weekend to see this, but I'm guessing you are a big-city sort of a guy. There's also a basketball hoop over the car port in pretty much every family house.

You also don't have to walk far in any city to find a basketball court, but you do have to leave the downtown business district.

Soccer is gaining traction, and the progress there has been remarkable, but there is a long and deep history of the other three sports.

pblakeney

First.Aspect said:

And what do you know, even MLS has overtaken it...

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/12/09/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states/

I skimmed it and at first glance they may be comparing apples and oranges in the years quoted. IIRC there was a strike during at least some of that period in NHL.
Not that I am doubting numbers have dropped since they started changing rules. #coincidence

First.Aspect

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

And what do you know, even MLS has overtaken it...

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/12/09/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states/

I skimmed it and at first glance they may be comparing apples and oranges in the years quoted. IIRC there was a strike during at least some of that period in NHL.
Not that I am doubting numbers have dropped since they started changing rules. #coincidence

It isn't coincidence. There's a player strike in one or other of the NHL or MLB most years. NHL just isn't that popular, unless you pronounce your vowels funny and end sentences with "eh".

That article's only about the MLS as well. Doesn't take into account the big followings for the Premier League, La Liga, Mexican and South American football.

TheBigBean

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

And what do you know, even MLS has overtaken it...

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/12/09/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states/

I skimmed it and at first glance they may be comparing apples and oranges in the years quoted. IIRC there was a strike during at least some of that period in NHL.
Not that I am doubting numbers have dropped since they started changing rules. #coincidence

It isn't coincidence. There's a player strike in one or other of the NHL or MLB most years. NHL just isn't that popular, unless you pronounce your vowels funny and end sentences with "eh".

That article's only about the MLS as well. Doesn't take into account the big followings for the Premier League, La Liga, Mexican and South American football.

Canada lost a few of its NHL teams to the US which isn't completely consistent with that view though.

pblakeney

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

And what do you know, even MLS has overtaken it...

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/12/09/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states/

I skimmed it and at first glance they may be comparing apples and oranges in the years quoted. IIRC there was a strike during at least some of that period in NHL.
Not that I am doubting numbers have dropped since they started changing rules. #coincidence

It isn't coincidence.

I meant coincidence with rule changes and viewer drop.
Team changes at around the same time too. I can't see ice hockey being popular in the southern states no matter how hard they try.

laurentian

rick_chasey said:

laurentian said:

rick_chasey said:

focuszing723 said:

Why is Football the top sport?

This is actually a really interesting question.

A football is a relatively cheap thing to buy wherever you are in the world. Failing that a "football" can be fashioned from a ball of rags/a fuit/a tin can etc etc.

One ball, two kids, some kind of goal and football can be played anywhere, any time.

There are few sports that can be played so easily and cheaply.

I mean the pro sport, not participation.

I guess that the fact that so many people around the world can/do participate means that the pro sport "version" is the most popular. It's relatable to more people than any other sport and therefore the most popular

First.Aspect

TheBigBean said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

And what do you know, even MLS has overtaken it...

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/12/09/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states/

I skimmed it and at first glance they may be comparing apples and oranges in the years quoted. IIRC there was a strike during at least some of that period in NHL.
Not that I am doubting numbers have dropped since they started changing rules. #coincidence

It isn't coincidence. There's a player strike in one or other of the NHL or MLB most years. NHL just isn't that popular, unless you pronounce your vowels funny and end sentences with "eh".

That article's only about the MLS as well. Doesn't take into account the big followings for the Premier League, La Liga, Mexican and South American football.

Canada lost a few of its NHL teams to the US which isn't completely consistent with that view though.

Some franchises moved when the Canadian dollar was weak. But the most recent relocation was Atlanta to Winnipeg. So, huge local market where no one gives a toss to a tiny rabidly enthusiastic local market.

Oddly the Calgary team used to be in Atlanta also. Perhaps more people play soccer in Atlanta?

kingstongraham

running is quite relatable, but nobody watches it outside of the Olympics.

laurentian

The other thing to consider in the US when discussing viewing figures is, perhaps, the lack of Football (association) and Rugby on TV. I have heard it said that this is because the "main" US sports have many stoppages (NFL being the most obvious) that allow for commercial breaks that fund the broadcasting . . . these cannot be accommodated in, say, soccer.

First.Aspect

laurentian said:

The other thing to consider in the US when discussing viewing figures is, perhaps, the lack of Football (association) and Rugby on TV. I have heard it said that this is because the "main" US sports have many stoppages (NFL being the most obvious) that allow for commercial breaks that fund the broadcasting . . . these cannot be accommodated in, say, soccer.

Thats out of date though. You just get the commentators doing the advertising and wotnot. It's on TV a lot now. No, not as much as MLB, NFL or NBA but it's there. Hard to find a sports bar not showing soccer on at least one screen.

And before you ask, there are some towns where every restaurant is a bar and ever bar is a sports bar. A man's got to eat somewhere.

First.Aspect

kingstongraham said:

running is quite relatable, but nobody watches it outside of the Olympics.

What about the great North run and the fuckijg London marathon?

TheBigBean

First.Aspect said:

TheBigBean said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

And what do you know, even MLS has overtaken it...

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/12/09/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states/

I skimmed it and at first glance they may be comparing apples and oranges in the years quoted. IIRC there was a strike during at least some of that period in NHL.
Not that I am doubting numbers have dropped since they started changing rules. #coincidence

It isn't coincidence. There's a player strike in one or other of the NHL or MLB most years. NHL just isn't that popular, unless you pronounce your vowels funny and end sentences with "eh".

That article's only about the MLS as well. Doesn't take into account the big followings for the Premier League, La Liga, Mexican and South American football.

Canada lost a few of its NHL teams to the US which isn't completely consistent with that view though.

Some franchises moved when the Canadian dollar was weak. But the most recent relocation was Atlanta to Winnipeg. So, huge local market where no one gives a toss to a tiny rabidly enthusiastic local market.

Oddly the Calgary team used to be in Atlanta also. Perhaps more people play soccer in Atlanta?

I'm really quite out of date.

pblakeney

kingstongraham said:

running is quite relatable, but nobody watches it outside of the Olympics.

Nobody runs for fun. 😉

kingstongraham

First.Aspect said:

kingstongraham said:

running is quite relatable, but nobody watches it outside of the Olympics.

What about the great North run and the fuckijg London marathon?

Who won those races last year?

First.Aspect

kingstongraham said:

First.Aspect said:

kingstongraham said:

running is quite relatable, but nobody watches it outside of the Olympics.

What about the great North run and the fuckijg London marathon?

Who won those races last year?

I don't know, but they were on telly and radio for absolutely ages.

I get the point though. Perhaps mass participation is not the sole factor. Intetest is another, which to be frank explains the discrepancy between number of people who cycle and those who watch professional cycling (which is about as interesting as the world actuarial championships).

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

And what do you know, even MLS has overtaken it...

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/12/09/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states/

But not American football? By quite some way.

I'm not sure what your argument is RC. You've tried to argue that soccer isn't popular in the states. This is manifestly incorrect. Pointing to something that's more popular isn't an argument.

When you visit the US, can I suggest leaving the hotel and looking around? Football (not soccer) has really, really high (male) participation all the way through junior and high school. So does baseball and softball. You really need to get into suburban America at the weekend to see this, but I'm guessing you are a big-city sort of a guy. There's also a basketball hoop over the car port in pretty much every family house.

You also don't have to walk far in any city to find a basketball court, but you do have to leave the downtown business district.

Soccer is gaining traction, and the progress there has been remarkable, but there is a long and deep history of the other three sports.

I'm using the states and a real-life example to challenge the (i think overly simplistic) theory that participation correlates to the popularity of the professional sport, and that high participation *causes* popularity.

In this instance, football is played by more people in the US than ice hockey or American football, yet lags considerably when it comes to popularity of the professional game. (although apparently not ice hockey anymore)

More people play football than American football, but I think in the US there is at least one if not two orders of magnitude more viewers of American football than of actual football.

If the theory of "it's a simple as more people play football than any other sport, hence its popularity" then you would expect the football to *more* watched than American football in the US, right?

I know it's not really done to use actual real world examples to test hypotheses.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

And what do you know, even MLS has overtaken it...

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/12/09/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states/

But not American football? By quite some way.

I'm not sure what your argument is RC. You've tried to argue that soccer isn't popular in the states. This is manifestly incorrect. Pointing to something that's more popular isn't an argument.

When you visit the US, can I suggest leaving the hotel and looking around? Football (not soccer) has really, really high (male) participation all the way through junior and high school. So does baseball and softball. You really need to get into suburban America at the weekend to see this, but I'm guessing you are a big-city sort of a guy. There's also a basketball hoop over the car port in pretty much every family house.

You also don't have to walk far in any city to find a basketball court, but you do have to leave the downtown business district.

Soccer is gaining traction, and the progress there has been remarkable, but there is a long and deep history of the other three sports.

I'm using the states and a real-life example to challenge the (i think overly simplistic) theory that participation correlates to the popularity of the professional sport, and that high participation *causes* popularity.

In this instance, football is played by more people in the US than ice hockey or American football, yet lags considerably when it comes to popularity of the professional game. (although apparently not ice hockey anymore)

More people play football than American football, but I think in the US there is at least one if not two orders of magnitude more viewers of American football than of actual football.

If the theory of "it's a simple as more people play football than any other sport, hence its popularity" then you would expect the football to *more* watched than American football in the US, right?

I know it's not really done to use actual real world examples to test hypotheses.

I thought we had agreed to remove "women" from the definition of people.

To many American blokes soccer is a non-competitive sport or for girls

laurentian

Rick

You said:

" . . . . . . yet lags considerably when it comes to popularity of the professional game. . ."

How are you measuring "popularity" in this instance?

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

More people play football than American football, but I think in the US there is at least one if not two orders of magnitude more viewers of American football than of actual football.

Just guessing but I'd suggest where ever the figures come from it is for organised sport, not people playing in their garden/park/beach. Participation with Dad gets them interested.

First.Aspect

BB makes a good argument for separating the assessment based on gender.

Taking male sports, are you sure that soccer has more participants than basketball and football?

And where do you get your one and two orders of magnitude from? There are only 16 NFL games per team per season and it is a short season. A soccer team will play 40-60, baseball over 150, basketball about 80.

The Olympics has higher audience numbers for about 1 week in 200, I would guess. Does that make it more popular than the NFL.

What about the Daytona 500? Or Indy? One off annual events with huge in person and TV audiences.

How are you measuring popular? Peak viewers or total hours or what?

laurentian

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

More people play football than American football, but I think in the US there is at least one if not two orders of magnitude more viewers of American football than of actual football.

Just guessing but I'd suggest where ever the figures come from it is for organised sport, not people playing in their garden/park/beach. Participation with Dad gets them interested.

Plus American Football is on TV 7 days a week in one form or another . . . not sure how many days a week soccer is on but would suggest its not as much

First.Aspect

laurentian said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

More people play football than American football, but I think in the US there is at least one if not two orders of magnitude more viewers of American football than of actual football.

Just guessing but I'd suggest where ever the figures come from it is for organised sport, not people playing in their garden/park/beach. Participation with Dad gets them interested.

Plus American Football is on TV 7 days a week in one form or another . . . not sure how many days a week soccer is on but would suggest its not as much

You have this wrong. During the NFL season there is quite a lot on, and the big college games get aired (but those are much lower profile) but that's about it. As I say above the NFL season is pretty short so gets a lot of attention while it's on.

focuszing723

Just to point the disrespect to arms/hands in the Winter Olympics which is mainly made up of sh1tter limb sports. The Scottish "hurry, hurry" women lead by exmple here.

laurentian

First.Aspect said:

laurentian said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

More people play football than American football, but I think in the US there is at least one if not two orders of magnitude more viewers of American football than of actual football.

Just guessing but I'd suggest where ever the figures come from it is for organised sport, not people playing in their garden/park/beach. Participation with Dad gets them interested.

Plus American Football is on TV 7 days a week in one form or another . . . not sure how many days a week soccer is on but would suggest its not as much

You have this wrong. During the NFL season there is quite a lot on, and the big college games get aired (but those are much lower profile) but that's about it. As I say above the NFL season is pretty short so gets a lot of attention while it's on.

Fair comment although my point is the question of how much soccer is shown in comparison to American Football.

When I was last in the US, college amercian football was definitely on 7 days a week (in September three or four years ago). I didn't see a single game of soccer

rick_chasey

laurentian said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

More people play football than American football, but I think in the US there is at least one if not two orders of magnitude more viewers of American football than of actual football.

Just guessing but I'd suggest where ever the figures come from it is for organised sport, not people playing in their garden/park/beach. Participation with Dad gets them interested.

Plus American Football is on TV 7 days a week in one form or another . . . not sure how many days a week soccer is on but would suggest its not as much

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_in_the_United_States

This has a fairly useful chart about halfway down, which has TV viewing records, participation and a few other metrics. I don't see a particularly strong correlation.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

laurentian said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

More people play football than American football, but I think in the US there is at least one if not two orders of magnitude more viewers of American football than of actual football.

Just guessing but I'd suggest where ever the figures come from it is for organised sport, not people playing in their garden/park/beach. Participation with Dad gets them interested.

Plus American Football is on TV 7 days a week in one form or another . . . not sure how many days a week soccer is on but would suggest its not as much

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_in_the_United_States

This has a fairly useful chart about halfway down, which has TV viewing records, participation and a few other metrics. I don't see a particularly strong correlation.

The only outlier is American Football. Overall there's quite a good correlation isn't there?

schlepcycling

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

And what do you know, even MLS has overtaken it...

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/12/09/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states/

I skimmed it and at first glance they may be comparing apples and oranges in the years quoted. IIRC there was a strike during at least some of that period in NHL.
Not that I am doubting numbers have dropped since they started changing rules. #coincidence

It isn't coincidence. There's a player strike in one or other of the NHL or MLB most years.

That’s not true, prior to the current MLB lockout the last player strike was during the 94-95 season and the most recent lockout in the NHL was in 2012. There were NHL lockouts in 1994 and 2004 but the last actual player strike was in 1992. So saying there’s a strike in one or the other most years is just wrong.

First.Aspect

schlepcycling said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

And what do you know, even MLS has overtaken it...

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/12/09/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states/

I skimmed it and at first glance they may be comparing apples and oranges in the years quoted. IIRC there was a strike during at least some of that period in NHL.
Not that I am doubting numbers have dropped since they started changing rules. #coincidence

It isn't coincidence. There's a player strike in one or other of the NHL or MLB most years.

That’s not true, prior to the current MLB lockout the last player strike was during the 94-95 season and the most recent lockout in the NHL was in 2012. There were NHL lockouts in 1994 and 2004 but the last actual player strike was in 1992. So saying there’s a strike in one or the other most years is just wrong.

what's the difference between a player strike and a lockout? Games don't get played.

It's fairly common, and there were periods during 1996-2003 when I was there, so I don't think you've got them all on your list.

schlepcycling

First.Aspect said:

schlepcycling said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

And what do you know, even MLS has overtaken it...

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/12/09/soccer-surpasses-nhl-as-4th-most-popular-sport-in-united-states/

I skimmed it and at first glance they may be comparing apples and oranges in the years quoted. IIRC there was a strike during at least some of that period in NHL.
Not that I am doubting numbers have dropped since they started changing rules. #coincidence

It isn't coincidence. There's a player strike in one or other of the NHL or MLB most years.

That’s not true, prior to the current MLB lockout the last player strike was during the 94-95 season and the most recent lockout in the NHL was in 2012. There were NHL lockouts in 1994 and 2004 but the last actual player strike was in 1992. So saying there’s a strike in one or the other most years is just wrong.

what's the difference between a player strike and a lockout? Games don't get played.

It's fairly common, and there were periods during 1996-2003 when I was there, so I don't think you've got them all on your list.

List of MLB strikes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLB_lockout

List of NHL strikes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_lockout

Nothing 1996-2003