Wife of ISIS fighter wants to return to the UK

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Comments

  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    How do you propose she is thoroughly re-radicalised? I am a good example of just how bloody difficult it is to get rid of slightly less radical views :)

    FTFY :wink:
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Have to say that prior to this case, my slightly un deeply thought out point of view of people who disappear off to Syria was goodbye and good riddance and please don't come back. This thread has really made me realise how wrong that point of view was so thanks to the arguments of John80 etc for helping me to change my mind so thoroughly!
    Faster than a tent.......
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,501
    Perhaps a long ding dong between the government and a human rights lawyer/court with her eventual repatriation will act as a deterrent (by with default or design), will achieve a suitable outcome.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    john80 wrote:
    So the MET are expected to perform an investigation where the only have the internet with most information in Syrian and the one sided tales of terrorists and you think they have a good chance of pinning crimes on individuals. The MET do not have psychic powers.

    Please tell me this is satire?
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    Imposter wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    So the MET are expected to perform an investigation where the only have the internet with most information in Syrian and the one sided tales of terrorists and you think they have a good chance of pinning crimes on individuals. The MET do not have psychic powers.

    Please tell me this is satire?
    In the age of not believing in experts, nobody knows more about any topic than anybody else.
    If John80 doesn't know Arabic or how to investigate crime and terrorism, nobody does.
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    One-sided tales of terrorists and their secret, coded language! :lol:
    Ben

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  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,501
    Every one knows that the best way to fight Islamic fundamentalism is by spreading the word of god.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    Imposter wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    So the MET are expected to perform an investigation where the only have the internet with most information in Syrian and the one sided tales of terrorists and you think they have a good chance of pinning crimes on individuals. The MET do not have psychic powers.

    Please tell me this is satire?

    Maybe this guy is engaging in satire by stating the obvious.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 17811.html

    Here are some more people stating the obvious.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 90991.html

    I wish you all well with your view that returning fighters were just a group of likely lads and lasses on a jolly jape for a few years learning about alternative cultures and customs. All transferable skills I would assume.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    john80 wrote:
    I wish you all well with your view that returning fighters were just a group of likely lads and lasses on a jolly jape for a few years learning about alternative cultures and customs. All transferable skills I would assume.

    Strawman argument - which seems to be all you have. Nobody has ever said that. You can 'fact check' my claim that nobody has said that, by simply reading the thread.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,227
    john80 wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    So the MET are expected to perform an investigation where the only have the internet with most information in Syrian and the one sided tales of terrorists and you think they have a good chance of pinning crimes on individuals. The MET do not have psychic powers.

    Please tell me this is satire?

    Maybe this guy is engaging in satire by stating the obvious.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 17811.html

    Here are some more people stating the obvious.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 90991.html

    I wish you all well with your view that returning fighters were just a group of likely lads and lasses on a jolly jape for a few years learning about alternative cultures and customs. All transferable skills I would assume.

    So British people who go to that region then return to the UK can be expected to be investigated, and if found to have committed an offence, will be prosecuted. That sounds right.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,593
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    So the MET are expected to perform an investigation where the only have the internet with most information in Syrian and the one sided tales of terrorists and you think they have a good chance of pinning crimes on individuals. The MET do not have psychic powers.

    Please tell me this is satire?

    Maybe this guy is engaging in satire by stating the obvious.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 17811.html

    Here are some more people stating the obvious.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 90991.html

    I wish you all well with your view that returning fighters were just a group of likely lads and lasses on a jolly jape for a few years learning about alternative cultures and customs. All transferable skills I would assume.

    So British people who go to that region then return to the UK can be expected to be investigated, and if found to have committed an offence, will be prosecuted. That sounds right.

    If only people on here had suggested that as a course of action rather than being terrorist sympathisers.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    So the MET are expected to perform an investigation where the only have the internet with most information in Syrian and the one sided tales of terrorists and you think they have a good chance of pinning crimes on individuals. The MET do not have psychic powers.

    Please tell me this is satire?

    Maybe this guy is engaging in satire by stating the obvious.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 17811.html

    Here are some more people stating the obvious.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 90991.html

    I wish you all well with your view that returning fighters were just a group of likely lads and lasses on a jolly jape for a few years learning about alternative cultures and customs. All transferable skills I would assume.

    So British people who go to that region then return to the UK can be expected to be investigated, and if found to have committed an offence, will be prosecuted. That sounds right.

    I think you missed all the warnings that ascertaining what they may have done or not done was rather tricky from all those people actually tasked with doing it.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    Imposter wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    I wish you all well with your view that returning fighters were just a group of likely lads and lasses on a jolly jape for a few years learning about alternative cultures and customs. All transferable skills I would assume.

    Strawman argument - which seems to be all you have. Nobody has ever said that. You can 'fact check' my claim that nobody has said that, by simply reading the thread.

    What a lot of people have said said is that we are better de-radicalising people in the UK or the UK should facilitate her repatriation and the repatriation of others as some sort of duty. Some have even went as far to say that not actively bringing her back would be a bad idea. I would dispute that and suggest that Syrian troops are probably better placed to de-radicalise ISIS in Syria. They wont be hiring a psychologist at any point in this process and it will mainly involve execution or prison. When you are dealing with people that think the genocide of others not holding their views is acceptable then the only way to deal with that in the UK is an in determinant sentence at the tune of 40-50k per year. This is not in the UK's interests however others are welcome to think otherwise and maybe dip into their pockets to fund this to save the general taxpayer.
  • haydenm
    haydenm Posts: 2,997
    john80 wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    I wish you all well with your view that returning fighters were just a group of likely lads and lasses on a jolly jape for a few years learning about alternative cultures and customs. All transferable skills I would assume.

    Strawman argument - which seems to be all you have. Nobody has ever said that. You can 'fact check' my claim that nobody has said that, by simply reading the thread.

    What a lot of people have said said is that we are better de-radicalising people in the UK or the UK should facilitate her repatriation and the repatriation of others as some sort of duty. Some have even went as far to say that not actively bringing her back would be a bad idea. I would dispute that and suggest that Syrian troops are probably better placed to de-radicalise ISIS in Syria. They wont be hiring a psychologist at any point in this process and it will mainly involve execution or prison. When you are dealing with people that think the genocide of others not holding their views is acceptable then the only way to deal with that in the UK is an in determinant sentence at the tune of 40-50k per year. This is not in the UK's interests however others are welcome to think otherwise and maybe dip into their pockets to fund this to save the general taxpayer.

    Or we could just follow the law and treat her in the same way we are all entitled to be treated. Leave the country= be allowed back. Break the law= go to prison. It's really very simple. You're letting your disagreement with her get in the way of basic principles of UK of law. I disagree with lots of UK citizens on lots of things, I'm not advocating them being shot by the Syrian military.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    john80 wrote:
    When you are dealing with people that think the genocide of others not holding their views is acceptable then the only way to deal with that in the UK is an in determinant sentence at the tune of 40-50k per year. This is not in the UK's interests however others are welcome to think otherwise and maybe dip into their pockets to fund this to save the general taxpayer.

    When you put it like that you could say that it isn't in the interests of the UK to waste a fortune on a Police force and prison system that is only necessary because of people who can't manage to obey the rule of law. Personally I do rather resent the cost that greedy, lazy, unpleasant law breakers cost us but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an alternative other than the summary executions you seem to be in favour of. Would you be OK with us bringing Begum back and executing her? If so, what for?
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Alejandrosdog
    Alejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    Rolf F wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    When you are dealing with people that think the genocide of others not holding their views is acceptable then the only way to deal with that in the UK is an in determinant sentence at the tune of 40-50k per year. This is not in the UK's interests however others are welcome to think otherwise and maybe dip into their pockets to fund this to save the general taxpayer.

    When you put it like that you could say that it isn't in the interests of the UK to waste a fortune on a Police force and prison system that is only necessary because of people who can't manage to obey the rule of law. Personally I do rather resent the cost that greedy, lazy, unpleasant law breakers cost us but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an alternative other than the summary executions you seem to be in favour of. Would you be OK with us bringing Begum back and executing her? If so, what for?

    No need to do anything, leave her there if she gets back cross the bridge then. With a bit of luck shell step on an unmarked landmine and blow herself to bits. At least that way she'll have served some purpose / provided some redress in the rebuilding of Syria.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108
    Well we have done something which is remove her citizenship - something that seems to me of dubious morality (palming her off on Bangladesh) and according to some dubious legality.

    I doubt many would favour assisting the return of ISIS fighters, this young woman may be an exception for some due to her age, sex and seemingly non-combatant role, it's more a question of what we do with those who are able to return.

    Presumably we look at them on a case by case basis but depending on what - is our reaction going to be governed by an assessment of past crimes or of future risk - either way it has to be within our legal framework.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,227
    Quick question for those who think that she should not be allowed to return - should she have been blocked from going there in the first place?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Quick question for those who think that she should not be allowed to return - should she have been blocked from going there in the first place?

    Moot point, surely. Technically, she was not legally allowed to leave the UK in the way that she did, and she travelled on someone else's passport. You can argue that more could/should have been done to prevent her from becoming radicalised, but that's another question..

    Incidentally - for the sake of clarity, I do think she should be allowed to return.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,501
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Quick question for those who think that she should not be allowed to return - should she have been blocked from going there in the first place?

    I am sure I remembered them (the authorities) trying to stop them. Once they got out of the UK, it became difficult. With a British passport (all be it someone else's), a valid plane ticket (to Istanbul), what legal presumption are you going to use to retain them?

    Scotland yard were criticised for not doing more but if someone is hell bent on doing something and there is no physical evidence of legal contradiction, what could have been done?
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    john80 wrote:
    I would dispute that and suggest that Syrian troops are probably better placed to de-radicalise ISIS in Syria. They wont be hiring a psychologist at any point in this process and it will mainly involve execution or prison.

    What should happen to her newborn baby? Should he be executed/imprisoned too?
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,501
    The baby should be repatriated back to the UK. The mother should face a trial (somewhere) and serve a sentence (somewhere).

    Let's not forget who ISIS is (and i'm playing Devil's Advocate a little):
    A group of fundamentalists who see the West as decadent and the people as infidels. (The one's who live and enjoy all the benefits of a welfare state, a health service, an education system and political and social stability (wherever they reside in Europe)).
    The same people want to behead and have actively killed people - from driving trucks into crowds, to using a machete on Lee Rigby, to revenge attacks on the people who worked at Charlie Hebdo (because they were incensed by a cartoon! How sensitive can one be? How volatile can one be?).
    In the same way I would not expect to flaunt the rules of say drug trafficking in Indonesia or go against cultural norms in Saudi Arabia or Dubai because you have to be sympathetic to the environment you choose to be in, why do they want to alter our values in our society to which we live in and they were born into?
    ...and all under the umbrella of a 'decadent' state.

    Whilst I sympathise with the infidel telling an impoverished farmer at gun point to burn their principal cash crop, that being Opium and then joining the Taliban (and I do not for a moment condone the actions of the West historically for our interference in the middle east), ISIS' method, ideology and actions are wholly immoral, mis-placed and insidious.

    It is a little like Isreal. I would have far more sympathy with the Palestinians if the Palestinians were not represented by Hamas. So long as some of them (not all) see Hamas as their rightful representatives, then I cannot condone any aggressive actions by Palestinians. Hamas do not recognise Isreal as a state. That is the premise to which they operate and that premise is not conducive and never will be to achieving compromise.

    Many ends are not justified by the means.

    So, going full circle, these very naive and very stupid girls connive to leave the UK to join an organisation that practices misogyny, who carry out beheadings and stoning to death, who have destroyed historical artefacts, who have killed and maimed innocent civilians across Europe and then when it all collapses or they 'see the light', expect to be repatriated to the UK!

    Would Shamima Begum still be seeking refuge if ISIS wasn't all but buried in her locality?
    That is a fundamental question.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,227
    Imposter wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Quick question for those who think that she should not be allowed to return - should she have been blocked from going there in the first place?

    Moot point, surely. Technically, she was not legally allowed to leave the UK in the way that she did, and she travelled on someone else's passport. You can argue that more could/should have been done to prevent her from becoming radicalised, but that's another question..

    Incidentally - for the sake of clarity, I do think she should be allowed to return.

    Not a moot point for the next person.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    Pinno wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Quick question for those who think that she should not be allowed to return - should she have been blocked from going there in the first place?

    I am sure I remembered them (the authorities) trying to stop them. Once they got out of the UK, it became difficult. With a British passport (all be it someone else's), a valid plane ticket (to Istanbul), what legal presumption are you going to use to retain them?

    Scotland yard were criticised for not doing more but if someone is hell bent on doing something and there is no physical evidence of legal contradiction, what could have been done?

    She was a minor, known to be at risk of radicalisation. There's not much point keeping tabs on the radicalisation of minors if you then don't do anything about it until after they have left the country.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
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  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Meanwhile, to inject a bit more class into this thread, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/27/uk-shooting-range-uses-shamima-begum-image-for-targets
    In a statement to the Victoria Derbyshire show, which was sent the shooting target images of Begum, Ultimate Airsoft Range said: “The targets provide some fantastic reactions and conversations and allow people to have some lighthearted fun and bring out the inner child in us all.

    Oddly enough, this isn't exactly the image I associate light hearted inner child out bringing fun....... What is the matter with people?
    Faster than a tent.......
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    Imposter wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    I would dispute that and suggest that Syrian troops are probably better placed to de-radicalise ISIS in Syria. They wont be hiring a psychologist at any point in this process and it will mainly involve execution or prison.

    What should happen to her newborn baby? Should he be executed/imprisoned too?

    What I think is irrelevant as the current situation for this baby was dictated by the actions of its parents. Maybe when it is old enough to form an opinion on its early life it should look to these two for some answers as to how his or her life has turned out. Maybe the question to ask is why is this kid important or any more important than a teen female Yasidi woman sold as a slave and repeatedly raped until she would rather take her own life than continue living. They are equally deserving of asylum and counselling to get over their historic abuses. The Yasidi might even be glad to have some enforcable human rights and live in a stable country. I know which one I would rather take my chances of living next to.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Rolf F wrote:
    Meanwhile, to inject a bit more class into this thread, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/27/uk-shooting-range-uses-shamima-begum-image-for-targets
    In a statement to the Victoria Derbyshire show, which was sent the shooting target images of Begum, Ultimate Airsoft Range said: “The targets provide some fantastic reactions and conversations and allow people to have some lighthearted fun and bring out the inner child in us all.

    Oddly enough, this isn't exactly the image I associate light hearted inner child out bringing fun....... What is the matter with people?

    well - it's a step further from Call of Duty - or what other war games kids get to play on their game boxes these days ...

    but then I used to play MUDS - usually involving killing a few thousand objects, albeit text - then went on to the DOOM days although I played Marathon - the MAC equivalent - preferring to play the multi-user version where you got to "kill" your mate - watching yourself being blown up on screen was great fun ...

    Pretending is great escapism - and other than a few close pass drivers, I don't recall ever wanting to harm anyone in particular - let alone kill them - is a shooting range any different? Only that it's real guns ... step too far?
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    john80 wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    I would dispute that and suggest that Syrian troops are probably better placed to de-radicalise ISIS in Syria. They wont be hiring a psychologist at any point in this process and it will mainly involve execution or prison.

    What should happen to her newborn baby? Should he be executed/imprisoned too?

    What I think is irrelevant as the current situation for this baby was dictated by the actions of its parents.
    except the baby was born to a british citizen - and is therefore a british citizen and I'd hazard a guess that the grandparents/family would be willing to bring him up.
    john80 wrote:
    They are equally deserving of asylum
    AFAIK, the baby doesn't need Asylum - he has a right to enter this country.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    john80 wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    I would dispute that and suggest that Syrian troops are probably better placed to de-radicalise ISIS in Syria. They wont be hiring a psychologist at any point in this process and it will mainly involve execution or prison.

    What should happen to her newborn baby? Should he be executed/imprisoned too?

    What I think is irrelevant as the current situation for this baby was dictated by the actions of its parents. Maybe when it is old enough to form an opinion on its early life it should look to these two for some answers as to how his or her life has turned out. Maybe the question to ask is why is this kid important or any more important than a teen female Yasidi woman sold as a slave and repeatedly raped until she would rather take her own life than continue living. They are equally deserving of asylum and counselling to get over their historic abuses. The Yasidi might even be glad to have some enforcable human rights and live in a stable country. I know which one I would rather take my chances of living next to.

    Are we having to make the choice between one or the other then? Bad news for Yasidi woman number 2 then.......
    Faster than a tent.......
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    john80 wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    I would dispute that and suggest that Syrian troops are probably better placed to de-radicalise ISIS in Syria. They wont be hiring a psychologist at any point in this process and it will mainly involve execution or prison.

    What should happen to her newborn baby? Should he be executed/imprisoned too?

    What I think is irrelevant as the current situation for this baby was dictated by the actions of its parents. Maybe when it is old enough to form an opinion on its early life it should look to these two for some answers as to how his or her life has turned out. Maybe the question to ask is why is this kid important or any more important than a teen female Yasidi woman sold as a slave and repeatedly raped until she would rather take her own life than continue living. They are equally deserving of asylum and counselling to get over their historic abuses. The Yasidi might even be glad to have some enforcable human rights and live in a stable country. I know which one I would rather take my chances of living next to.

    False equivalent, John. Asylum and citizenship are two entirely different issues. It doesn't sound like you have fully grasped the issues here...

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