Freeman Medical Practitioner Tribunal .Manchester

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  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    david37 said:

    RichN95. said:

    therobertscollection said:



    Precisely, medical tribunals are concerned solely with the practitioner's fitness to practice.


    Absolutely. And he's admitted most of the charges, which in medical terms were probably more serious. There is nothing here that proves there was doping, just that the panel didn't believe his alibi because a 'reliable witness' who stormed out during cross examination said it wasn't true.
    so nothing to see here then? really?

    it was all a mistake, he lost his notes, he doesn't recall what was in a Jiffy bag, the GMC don't know about cycling.

    you're in denial and you're justifying your position.
    Currently there is nothing to see here, though.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • andyrac
    andyrac Posts: 1,205
    gweeds said:

    Lanterne_Rogue said:

    gweeds said:

    Tony Doyle on BBC saying ‘cycling is in tatters and doesn’t keep how it recovers from this’

    Has he seen any cycling news in the last 25 years?

    25?

    My own instinct is that compared to most cycling scandals it's likely to be small beer, though the optics are pretty bad. Enough riders have been pinged for testosterone to know that it's unlikely to have been used in competition, and leaving an audit trail right to HQ doesn't seem likely for an outfit as obsessed about minor detail as Sky / British Cycling if there really was a serious program going on.

    I'm intrigued by what was going on though - but doubt we'll ever really know unless the recipient stands up.
    That’s a fair point.

    Listening to the various news
    channels talking about this today it’s interesting how it’s being spun as ‘is cycling just how much you can get away with’.

    If only 5% of this media interest was pointed at football.
    It's all fairly predictable - the usual journalists having a dig at cycling - and the DCMS chairman having a pop. Why not try not looking at the 'big' sports - they may be surprised.......
    Oh, I forgot, they don't do doping.......
    All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,593
    BBC reporting it as a big deal, I suppose they have to try to chalk up at least a consolation goal for all the effort Roan has put into bringing down BC and Sky over the last decade.

    Sutton rubbing salt in the wounds by brazening it out doing interviews.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    edited March 2021
    david37 said:


    so nothing to see here then? really?

    it was all a mistake, he lost his notes, he doesn't recall what was in a Jiffy bag, the GMC don't know about cycling.

    you're in denial and you're justifying your position.


    After two year of this there are still no details, just some theories as to what happened. The unnamed rider is unnamed because he or she is no-one specific. Just a theoretical person. If it was someone they would refer to Rider X with details of the doping.

    I think people need to realise that this is a tribunal, not a court case. Proof is not required.

    We have had plenty of doping cases in the past. Whole books have been written about them. None of them looked like this.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108
    It's not a good look - it does look like (not saying it is) a small number of riders benefited from doping. Of course it could be that it was really for Shane Sutton's sex life or it could be Freeman had some sideline in doping other athletes outside of Sky/GB.

    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    RichN95. said:

    david37 said:


    so nothing to see here then? really?

    it was all a mistake, he lost his notes, he doesn't recall what was in a Jiffy bag, the GMC don't know about cycling.

    you're in denial and you're justifying your position.


    After two year of this there are still no details, just some theories as to what happened. The unnamed rider is unnamed because he or she is no-one specific. Just a theoretical person. If it was someone they would refer to Rider X with details of the doping.

    I think people need to realise that this is a tribunal, not a court case. Proof is not required. They just need to decide what they feel the most likely explanation is.

    We have had plenty of doping cases in the past. Whole books have been written about them. None of them looked like this.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    Aside a couple of the absolute tin foilers/Skineos haters, there doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm for this development in the Clinic.
    Even they seem to realise that if it actual is a rider, he is anonymous now and probably will be for ever.

    Folks may be better served by looking towards Doping Dan Roan to get their jollies.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • johngti
    johngti Posts: 2,508
    And then there’s the sheer nonsense side - given how micromanaged everything at BC/Sky/Ineos was/is, would they really be so stupid as to order doping stuff via proper channels, using their own staff, and then have it delivered to HQ? Surely they’d have had it delivered to a private address at the very least.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    johngti said:

    And then there’s the sheer nonsense side - given how micromanaged everything at BC/Sky/Ineos was/is, would they really be so stupid as to order doping stuff via proper channels, using their own staff, and then have it delivered to HQ? Surely they’d have had it delivered to a private address at the very least.


    He bought it using the British Cycling account too
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,593
    DeVlaeminck said:

    It's not a good look - it does look like (not saying it is) a small number of riders benefited from doping. Of course it could be that it was really for Shane Sutton's sex life or it could be Freeman had some sideline in doping other athletes outside of Sky/GB.

    Worst case I can make from it is an individual rider (possibly in the BC / Sky set up) sought Freeman's help and he gave it rather than reporting the approach or at a stretch Freeman was running his own sideline in helping riders dope and messed up on this occasion. If it was more organised why would he stay quiet when being thrown under the bus?
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,717
    I'm still of the opinion that most of this is a Doctor with a set of ethics developed in football crashing into the ethics of modern cycling.

    Freeman: Yes, Dave. "clean"


    Sky: No! Really!! Clean!!!


    Freeman: ???






    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    Pross said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    It's not a good look - it does look like (not saying it is) a small number of riders benefited from doping. Of course it could be that it was really for Shane Sutton's sex life or it could be Freeman had some sideline in doping other athletes outside of Sky/GB.

    Worst case I can make from it is an individual rider (possibly in the BC / Sky set up) sought Freeman's help and he gave it rather than reporting the approach or at a stretch Freeman was running his own sideline in helping riders dope and messed up on this occasion. If it was more organised why would he stay quiet when being thrown under the bus?

    And the first people he lied to about it were the other doctors at BC, including Steve Peters, head of Sky Medical.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108
    johngti said:

    And then there’s the sheer nonsense side - given how micromanaged everything at BC/Sky/Ineos was/is, would they really be so stupid as to order doping stuff via proper channels, using their own staff, and then have it delivered to HQ? Surely they’d have had it delivered to a private address at the very least.

    So what was it for? Is there a more likely explanation than doping - we are asked to believe Freeman is idiot enough to order testosterone for Sutton's sex life using the BC account even though Sutton denies it, that his record keeping was haphazard, that he has trouble with every laptop he's ever come into contact with yet he's far too organised to make a mistake like that?

    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    edited March 2021
    DeVlaeminck said:



    So what was it for? Is there a more likely explanation than doping - we are asked to believe Freeman is idiot enough to order testosterone for Sutton's sex life using the BC account even though Sutton denies it, that his record keeping was haphazard, that he has trouble with every laptop he's ever come into contact with yet he's far too organised to make a mistake like that?


    Getting involved in doping a rider isn't something you would do lightly. It would be planned and thought through. Not being caught would be high on the list of considerations. That's not a mistake simply made. It would be a considered decision. It's a mistake like writing a ransom note on the back of your gas bill.

    You could argue that this would be the same if he was ordering it for Sutton, but he was treating other staff members with permission, so this would seem little different to him.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,489
    RichN95. said:

    DeVlaeminck said:



    So what was it for? Is there a more likely explanation than doping - we are asked to believe Freeman is idiot enough to order testosterone for Sutton's sex life using the BC account even though Sutton denies it, that his record keeping was haphazard, that he has trouble with every laptop he's ever come into contact with yet he's far too organised to make a mistake like that?


    Getting involved in doping a rider isn't something you would do lightly. It would be planned and thought through. Not being caught would be high on the list of considerations. That's not a mistake simply made. It would be a considered decision. It's a mistake like writing a ransom note on the back of your gas bill.

    You could argue that this would be the same if he was ordering it for Sutton, but he was treating other staff members with permission, so this would seem little different to him.
    This baffles me. Surely everyone knows the medication required for Sutton was Viagra, not Testosterone?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    pblakeney said:



    This baffles me. Surely everyone knows the medication required for Sutton was Viagra, not Testosterone?


    Depends what he wanted it for - actual erectile disfunction, or something to give a youthful boost to his aging libido. Sutton has likely used testosterone in the past so he will know what effect it has on him. And it the story was that it was at his request rather than Freeman's suggestion.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,489
    RichN95. said:

    pblakeney said:



    This baffles me. Surely everyone knows the medication required for Sutton was Viagra, not Testosterone?


    Depends what he wanted it for - actual erectile disfunction, or something to give a youthful boost to his aging libido. Sutton has likely used testosterone in the past so he will know what effect it has on him. And it the story was that it was at his request rather than Freeman's suggestion.
    Yeah but, erectile disfunction was the reason reported. 🤔
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    blazing_saddles said:

    pblakeney said:

    RichN95. said:

    pblakeney said:



    This baffles me. Surely everyone knows the medication required for Sutton was Viagra, not Testosterone?


    Depends what he wanted it for - actual erectile disfunction, or something to give a youthful boost to his aging libido. Sutton has likely used testosterone in the past so he will know what effect it has on him. And it the story was that it was at his request rather than Freeman's suggestion.
    Yeah but, erectile disfunction was the reason reported. 🤔
    One thing for sure, Dan Roan isn't suffering erectile dysfunction atm.
    😆
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,444
    Roan described testosterone as "cycling's drug of choice" in the BBC article. Is that really true? I would have thought it was EPO...
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    bobmcstuff said:

    Roan described testosterone as "cycling's drug of choice" in the BBC article. Is that really true? I would have thought it was EPO...


    I thought it was all about ketones and salbutamol these days
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,444
    Yeah, except ketones aren't a drug and salbutamol is weak sauce.
  • gsk82
    gsk82 Posts: 3,620
    edited March 2021
    RichN95. said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    Roan described testosterone as "cycling's drug of choice" in the BBC article. Is that really true? I would have thought it was EPO...


    I thought it was all about ketones and salbutamol these days
    And not long ago he was saying the drug of choice was the one Wiggins had the TUE for. He's full of shit. That article is disgraceful.
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,593
    bobmcstuff said:

    Roan described testosterone as "cycling's drug of choice" in the BBC article. Is that really true? I would have thought it was EPO...

    Maybe he does his research in the 1980s, it would explain a lot. It was what riders tended to get done for when I first started watching cycling.
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    He fancies himself as some sort of sporting Paul Foot, when he's actually just poor imitator of Kelvin MacKenzie
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    you can infer from this that Wiggo wasn't on the receiving end.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/56400388
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  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,025
    elbowloh said:

    you can infer from this that Wiggo wasn't on the receiving end.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/56400388

    Fairly sure riders would have been unlikely to be caught by a test at the time.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,269
    There were WADA uniform test guidelines published in 2004, somewhat predating the Freeman kerfuffle.

    Doubt another 'investigation' would provide any more clarity.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,025
    orraloon said:

    There were WADA uniform test guidelines published in 2004, somewhat predating the Freeman kerfuffle.

    Doubt another 'investigation' would provide any more clarity.

    I googled it to refresh my memory. There were two tests the Carbon Isotope Ratio test and the T/E test. The former was effective, but expensive, so was only used if someone failed a T/E test. The T/E was easy to pass.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,593
    My reading of that was "We weren't stupid, our doping system was far more advanced than something as easily detectable and old fashioned as testosterone". It's an admission - Roan has got his man and the whole BC system is going to collapse.

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