LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!
Comments
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Pross said:
I'm surprised how bad he is, successful barristers are usually pretty eloquent as it is part of their trade.briantrumpet said:shirley_basso said:I'd be surprised if Labour get in. I haven't heard them say anything of substance since Cameron was elected. Starmer is beyond useless which is a huge missed opportunity.
I think he's more of an asset behind the scenes keeping the party and MPs in line. But he'll never inspire as an orator... he can't even read a script convincingly. Yvette Cooper is much better at that.
That said, I think the electorate night still go for 'boring' after the 'excitement' of the various car crashes of the present administration.
But I'm assuming he was at least reasonably successful despite that, so I'd guess his arguments overcame his wooden delivery.0 -
Given that pretty much every chart in the UK is "gets better till 2010, then gets worse", I find it pretty remarkable that it's not likely Labour get a landslide. Genuinely.wallace_and_gromit said:
To be fair, so could Labour. It's the next 20% layer of voters that are key. The Tories' are just more loyal to the cause than Labour's. The Tories want power whilst Labour seems to prefer a lot of introspection about what's right with winning GEs a handy side-effect if the planets align.rick_chasey said:Lol Tories could murder every 4th child and they'd still get 20% of the vote.
In a mirror-image universe, Stevo is now a disaffected former Labour loyalist who is voting Green whereas our Stevo will be voting Tory even after a Tory government passes a law granting "Droits de Seigneur" over Mrs Stevo to the 1922 Committee.
Plus, it's not like they've even been graceful in that 13 years.
Between making a mockery of people's sacrifice in covid, wrecking the public finances and every single policy beyond "make brexit happen", which was a mistake in an of itself, getting worse, including their flagship policies around immigration and the economy, how could they have realistically done much worse?0 -
This does somewhat gloss over the GFC and the Labour government's role in laying the groundwork for the UK to be spectacularly b*ggered by it.rick_chasey said:
Given that pretty much every chart in the UK is "gets better till 2010, then gets worse"...wallace_and_gromit said:
To be fair, so could Labour. It's the next 20% layer of voters that are key. The Tories' are just more loyal to the cause than Labour's. The Tories want power whilst Labour seems to prefer a lot of introspection about what's right with winning GEs a handy side-effect if the planets align.rick_chasey said:Lol Tories could murder every 4th child and they'd still get 20% of the vote.
In a mirror-image universe, Stevo is now a disaffected former Labour loyalist who is voting Green whereas our Stevo will be voting Tory even after a Tory government passes a law granting "Droits de Seigneur" over Mrs Stevo to the 1922 Committee.
But the Tories' years in power is indeed far from a glorious chapter!
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Conveniently ignored by some as it doesn't fit the left of centre narrative.wallace_and_gromit said:
This does somewhat gloss over the GFC and the Labour government's role in laying the groundwork for the UK to be spectacularly b*ggered by it.rick_chasey said:
Given that pretty much every chart in the UK is "gets better till 2010, then gets worse"...wallace_and_gromit said:
To be fair, so could Labour. It's the next 20% layer of voters that are key. The Tories' are just more loyal to the cause than Labour's. The Tories want power whilst Labour seems to prefer a lot of introspection about what's right with winning GEs a handy side-effect if the planets align.rick_chasey said:Lol Tories could murder every 4th child and they'd still get 20% of the vote.
In a mirror-image universe, Stevo is now a disaffected former Labour loyalist who is voting Green whereas our Stevo will be voting Tory even after a Tory government passes a law granting "Droits de Seigneur" over Mrs Stevo to the 1922 Committee.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
GDP performance has underperformed vs other main economies though, and what can we say about Brexit, COVID performance, Truss, Johnson, Sunak.
That all sits at the feet of the current crop.0 -
I think that's a pretty well worn narrative actually Stevo. Remember "champagne socialist"? It is why labour ended up with an idiot like Corbnyn in the end, as a backlash.Stevo_666 said:
Conveniently ignored by some as it doesn't fit the left of centre narrative.wallace_and_gromit said:
This does somewhat gloss over the GFC and the Labour government's role in laying the groundwork for the UK to be spectacularly b*ggered by it.rick_chasey said:
Given that pretty much every chart in the UK is "gets better till 2010, then gets worse"...wallace_and_gromit said:
To be fair, so could Labour. It's the next 20% layer of voters that are key. The Tories' are just more loyal to the cause than Labour's. The Tories want power whilst Labour seems to prefer a lot of introspection about what's right with winning GEs a handy side-effect if the planets align.rick_chasey said:Lol Tories could murder every 4th child and they'd still get 20% of the vote.
In a mirror-image universe, Stevo is now a disaffected former Labour loyalist who is voting Green whereas our Stevo will be voting Tory even after a Tory government passes a law granting "Droits de Seigneur" over Mrs Stevo to the 1922 Committee.
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Says the person who ignores the performance of the last 8 years.Stevo_666 said:
Conveniently ignored by some as it doesn't fit the left of centre narrative.wallace_and_gromit said:
This does somewhat gloss over the GFC and the Labour government's role in laying the groundwork for the UK to be spectacularly b*ggered by it.rick_chasey said:
Given that pretty much every chart in the UK is "gets better till 2010, then gets worse"...wallace_and_gromit said:
To be fair, so could Labour. It's the next 20% layer of voters that are key. The Tories' are just more loyal to the cause than Labour's. The Tories want power whilst Labour seems to prefer a lot of introspection about what's right with winning GEs a handy side-effect if the planets align.rick_chasey said:Lol Tories could murder every 4th child and they'd still get 20% of the vote.
In a mirror-image universe, Stevo is now a disaffected former Labour loyalist who is voting Green whereas our Stevo will be voting Tory even after a Tory government passes a law granting "Droits de Seigneur" over Mrs Stevo to the 1922 Committee.0 -
FtfyPross said:
Says the person who ignores the performance of the last 14 years.Stevo_666 said:
Conveniently ignored by some as it doesn't fit the left of centre narrative.wallace_and_gromit said:
This does somewhat gloss over the GFC and the Labour government's role in laying the groundwork for the UK to be spectacularly b*ggered by it.rick_chasey said:
Given that pretty much every chart in the UK is "gets better till 2010, then gets worse"...wallace_and_gromit said:
To be fair, so could Labour. It's the next 20% layer of voters that are key. The Tories' are just more loyal to the cause than Labour's. The Tories want power whilst Labour seems to prefer a lot of introspection about what's right with winning GEs a handy side-effect if the planets align.rick_chasey said:Lol Tories could murder every 4th child and they'd still get 20% of the vote.
In a mirror-image universe, Stevo is now a disaffected former Labour loyalist who is voting Green whereas our Stevo will be voting Tory even after a Tory government passes a law granting "Droits de Seigneur" over Mrs Stevo to the 1922 Committee.
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I thought the Cameron government did OK in difficult times and made the mistake of voting for them in 2015 (so I'm prepared accept my share of the blame for all that followed).First.Aspect said:
FtfyPross said:
Says the person who ignores the performance of the last 14 years.Stevo_666 said:
Conveniently ignored by some as it doesn't fit the left of centre narrative.wallace_and_gromit said:
This does somewhat gloss over the GFC and the Labour government's role in laying the groundwork for the UK to be spectacularly b*ggered by it.rick_chasey said:
Given that pretty much every chart in the UK is "gets better till 2010, then gets worse"...wallace_and_gromit said:
To be fair, so could Labour. It's the next 20% layer of voters that are key. The Tories' are just more loyal to the cause than Labour's. The Tories want power whilst Labour seems to prefer a lot of introspection about what's right with winning GEs a handy side-effect if the planets align.rick_chasey said:Lol Tories could murder every 4th child and they'd still get 20% of the vote.
In a mirror-image universe, Stevo is now a disaffected former Labour loyalist who is voting Green whereas our Stevo will be voting Tory even after a Tory government passes a law granting "Droits de Seigneur" over Mrs Stevo to the 1922 Committee.0 -
I think they fairly clearly laid the groundwork for Brexit and caved to the lunatic right. They also laid the groundwork for a generation of increased public borrowing and poor public services by failing to invest in the infrastructure those public services need, and cutting the public services to save money.Pross said:
I thought the Cameron government did OK in difficult times and made the mistake of voting for them in 2015 (so I'm prepared accept my share of the blame for all that followed).First.Aspect said:
FtfyPross said:
Says the person who ignores the performance of the last 14 years.Stevo_666 said:
Conveniently ignored by some as it doesn't fit the left of centre narrative.wallace_and_gromit said:
This does somewhat gloss over the GFC and the Labour government's role in laying the groundwork for the UK to be spectacularly b*ggered by it.rick_chasey said:
Given that pretty much every chart in the UK is "gets better till 2010, then gets worse"...wallace_and_gromit said:
To be fair, so could Labour. It's the next 20% layer of voters that are key. The Tories' are just more loyal to the cause than Labour's. The Tories want power whilst Labour seems to prefer a lot of introspection about what's right with winning GEs a handy side-effect if the planets align.rick_chasey said:Lol Tories could murder every 4th child and they'd still get 20% of the vote.
In a mirror-image universe, Stevo is now a disaffected former Labour loyalist who is voting Green whereas our Stevo will be voting Tory even after a Tory government passes a law granting "Droits de Seigneur" over Mrs Stevo to the 1922 Committee.
Other than that, they were great. I mean who can forget the big society?0 -
If you look at charts of the economic metrics that show the UK has "underperformed" recently then the step-changes in the gradients all generally occur in 2007/2008 (GFC) rather than 2010 (Tory government.)First.Aspect said:
I think they fairly clearly laid the groundwork for Brexit and caved to the lunatic right. They also laid the groundwork for a generation of increased public borrowing and poor public services by failing to invest in the infrastructure those public services need, and cutting the public services to save money.Pross said:
I thought the Cameron government did OK in difficult times and made the mistake of voting for them in 2015 (so I'm prepared accept my share of the blame for all that followed).First.Aspect said:
FtfyPross said:
Says the person who ignores the performance of the last 14 years.Stevo_666 said:
Conveniently ignored by some as it doesn't fit the left of centre narrative.wallace_and_gromit said:
This does somewhat gloss over the GFC and the Labour government's role in laying the groundwork for the UK to be spectacularly b*ggered by it.rick_chasey said:
Given that pretty much every chart in the UK is "gets better till 2010, then gets worse"...wallace_and_gromit said:
To be fair, so could Labour. It's the next 20% layer of voters that are key. The Tories' are just more loyal to the cause than Labour's. The Tories want power whilst Labour seems to prefer a lot of introspection about what's right with winning GEs a handy side-effect if the planets align.rick_chasey said:Lol Tories could murder every 4th child and they'd still get 20% of the vote.
In a mirror-image universe, Stevo is now a disaffected former Labour loyalist who is voting Green whereas our Stevo will be voting Tory even after a Tory government passes a law granting "Droits de Seigneur" over Mrs Stevo to the 1922 Committee.
Other than that, they were great. I mean who can forget the big society?
The best example of this is the stagnation of real wages, prior to the recent bout of high inflation. This was frequently presented in left-leaning publications as "real wages have stagnated under the Tories" when in fact the time frame for this was 2007 onwards, with a huge fall occurring in the GFC fallout, on Labour's watch, with modest real wages growth over the Tory years.
And in GDP terms, the UK has been very competitive overall vs the EU since the GFC. It is conveniently forgotten how badly the EU managed the "Eurozone Crisis" (over a decade ago now, so maybe not surprising) which was a self-inflicted problem, as it stemmed from there being no mechanism within the single currency zone for fiscal transfers, a unique feature of the Euro vs other major currencies.
In reality, the Cameron and post-Cameron eras are very different, and should be considered separately. The lunatics only took over operationally during the Brexit campaign and thereafter, though their influence was obviously simmering for years.2 -
Cameron presided over the referendum and a pathetic complacent Remain campaign. That's his legacy. He can share that last part with Corbyn.
Gordon Brown's policies are largely responsible for the difference between us and the Eurozone right after the gfc. All Cameron and Osborne did was not quite completely squander it.0 -
Pross said:
I thought the Cameron government did OK in difficult times and made the mistake of voting for them in 2015 (so I'm prepared accept my share of the blame for all that followed).First.Aspect said:
FtfyPross said:
Says the person who ignores the performance of the last 14 years.Stevo_666 said:
Conveniently ignored by some as it doesn't fit the left of centre narrative.wallace_and_gromit said:
This does somewhat gloss over the GFC and the Labour government's role in laying the groundwork for the UK to be spectacularly b*ggered by it.rick_chasey said:
Given that pretty much every chart in the UK is "gets better till 2010, then gets worse"...wallace_and_gromit said:
To be fair, so could Labour. It's the next 20% layer of voters that are key. The Tories' are just more loyal to the cause than Labour's. The Tories want power whilst Labour seems to prefer a lot of introspection about what's right with winning GEs a handy side-effect if the planets align.rick_chasey said:Lol Tories could murder every 4th child and they'd still get 20% of the vote.
In a mirror-image universe, Stevo is now a disaffected former Labour loyalist who is voting Green whereas our Stevo will be voting Tory even after a Tory government passes a law granting "Droits de Seigneur" over Mrs Stevo to the 1922 Committee.
Ditto. It's actually hard to imagine that even Corbyn could have ballsed it up more, in retrospect. We'll never know.0 -
Still maintain the UK was incredibly lucky to have Brown as PM and Darling as Chancellor during the crisis. World leaders, genuinely.First.Aspect said:Cameron presided over the referendum and a pathetic complacent Remain campaign. That's his legacy. He can share that last part with Corbyn.
Gordon Brown's policies are largely responsible for the difference between us and the Eurozone right after the gfc. All Cameron and Osborne did was not quite completely squander it.0 -
Every dog has his day! Though the bank recapitalisation plan is widely rumoured to have been devised by someone else. (From Standard Chartered Bank; name escapes me.)rick_chasey said:
Still maintain the UK was incredibly lucky to have Brown as PM and Darling as Chancellor during the crisis. World leaders, genuinely.First.Aspect said:Cameron presided over the referendum and a pathetic complacent Remain campaign. That's his legacy. He can share that last part with Corbyn.
Gordon Brown's policies are largely responsible for the difference between us and the Eurozone right after the gfc. All Cameron and Osborne did was not quite completely squander it.
Brown was maybe a good "Wartime Leader". There have been plenty of those who were ineffective / counterproductive during "peacetime".
The problems from the Labour era stemmed from Brown's hubristic approach to being Chancellor, where he planned the public finances assuming that his "abolished boom and bust" was economic fact rather than political rhetoric.0 -
Well that's true, but irrelevant to any assessment of the Tories' handling of the economy prior to the referendum.First.Aspect said:Cameron presided over the referendum and a pathetic complacent Remain campaign.
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I just burst out laughing.rick_chasey said:
Still maintain the UK was incredibly lucky to have Brown as PM and Darling as Chancellor during the crisis. World leaders, genuinely.First.Aspect said:Cameron presided over the referendum and a pathetic complacent Remain campaign. That's his legacy. He can share that last part with Corbyn.
Gordon Brown's policies are largely responsible for the difference between us and the Eurozone right after the gfc. All Cameron and Osborne did was not quite completely squander it.
Brown was a disaster as chancellor, making numerous massive mistakes (pension tax, selling gold a bottom of market, believing the end to boom and bust, keeping interest rates artificially low for too long, fuelling a debt crisis, the child tax credit disaster for those with variable incomes, the starting rate tax and then his U-turn) etc etc
He certainly wasn't a world leader during his years in Nos 11 and 10.
Darling however did do very well during the GFC to be fair, and he was the architect, not Brown, of the rescue packages etc.0 -
Sure, he didn't run it perfectly, but rather like the Tories ought not really get blamed for generating 10%+ inflation (but perhaps how they're manging the fact inflation is rampant), you can't hold a GFC created in America and esoteric banking regulation issues at the door of labour
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That is some understatement!rick_chasey said:Sure, he [Brown] didn't run it [the economy] perfectly...
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So who would you hold responsible for the banking regulations introduced in the UK during Brown's time as Chancellor?rick_chasey said:...you can't hold ... esoteric banking regulation issues at the door of labour
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Brown's policies as chancellor fuelled the credit boom in the UK, encouraging people to convert short term debt into long term debt.rick_chasey said:Sure, he didn't run it perfectly, but rather like the Tories ought not really get blamed for generating 10%+ inflation (but perhaps how they're manging the fact inflation is rampant), you can't hold a GFC created in America and esoteric banking regulation issues at the door of labour
If the economic cycle is approximately 7 years, then we should have seen a downturn in 2002-03, but his end to bust avoided that, but stored up big, big problems for later.
He is absolutely partly responsible for the GFC, along with the banks, and along with sections of the public who were greedy.0 -
You really think so? I mean, rhetoric about boom or bust aside, what's your problem with the economic track record there? Looks pretty rosy to me.wallace_and_gromit said:
That is some understatement!rick_chasey said:Sure, he [Brown] didn't run it [the economy] perfectly...
Vast amounts of children lifted out of poverty. Real wage growth, consistently. What more do you want?0 -
Not arguing but asking for information, what policies specifically?Dorset_Boy said:
Brown's policies as chancellor fuelled the credit boom in the UK, encouraging people to convert short term debt into long term debt.rick_chasey said:Sure, he didn't run it perfectly, but rather like the Tories ought not really get blamed for generating 10%+ inflation (but perhaps how they're manging the fact inflation is rampant), you can't hold a GFC created in America and esoteric banking regulation issues at the door of labour
If the economic cycle is approximately 7 years, then we should have seen a downturn in 2002-03, but his end to bust avoided that, but stored up big, big problems for later.
He is absolutely partly responsible for the GFC, along with the banks, and along with sections of the public who were greedy.
The way I see it, the entire financial system collectively missed the red flag re the mortgage and related derivative market, and that really caused the crash.
I don't really see the fault in the treasury leadership there, either in the US or the UK? It was a regulatory oversight, and a serious one at that.
I don't understand how any chancellor of the UK can be partly responsible for the GFC?
Nor do I really understand the argument that "sections of the public who were greedy". I mean, it's a free market, it works entirely on the premise people are greedy. That's entirely the reason financial markets regulation is so important to get right.0 -
This. Anyone blaming UK govt for GFC isn't paying attention to how important the UK isn't any more. Silly argument, but that didn't stop the Tories from making it for several years.0
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In the same way we can't blame the current gov't for covid related 10% inflation, rightt?
We can hold them responsible for how they handle the situation or not.0 -
Think they can be held responsible for the productivity and labour shortages related contributions, since that's arguably and entirely foreseeable consequence of Brexit.rick_chasey said:In the same way we can't blame the current gov't for covid related 10% inflation, rightt?
We can hold them responsible for how they handle the situation or not.0 -
Who said that?Pross said:
Says the person who ignores the performance of the last 8 years.Stevo_666 said:
Conveniently ignored by some as it doesn't fit the left of centre narrative.wallace_and_gromit said:
This does somewhat gloss over the GFC and the Labour government's role in laying the groundwork for the UK to be spectacularly b*ggered by it.rick_chasey said:
Given that pretty much every chart in the UK is "gets better till 2010, then gets worse"...wallace_and_gromit said:
To be fair, so could Labour. It's the next 20% layer of voters that are key. The Tories' are just more loyal to the cause than Labour's. The Tories want power whilst Labour seems to prefer a lot of introspection about what's right with winning GEs a handy side-effect if the planets align.rick_chasey said:Lol Tories could murder every 4th child and they'd still get 20% of the vote.
In a mirror-image universe, Stevo is now a disaffected former Labour loyalist who is voting Green whereas our Stevo will be voting Tory even after a Tory government passes a law granting "Droits de Seigneur" over Mrs Stevo to the 1922 Committee."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Sure, but again, it's at the margins because there is a labour shortage across the entire West.First.Aspect said:
Think they can be held responsible for the productivity and labour shortages related contributions, since that's arguably and entirely foreseeable consequence of Brexit.rick_chasey said:In the same way we can't blame the current gov't for covid related 10% inflation, rightt?
We can hold them responsible for how they handle the situation or not.0 -
I thought Labour ended up with Corbyn because after millipede's rash decisions to open up the leadership vote to members, there was a big influx of hard left and mischievous tories who wanted him in for the good of the countryFirst.Aspect said:
I think that's a pretty well worn narrative actually Stevo. Remember "champagne socialist"? It is why labour ended up with an idiot like Corbnyn in the end, as a backlash.Stevo_666 said:
Conveniently ignored by some as it doesn't fit the left of centre narrative.wallace_and_gromit said:
This does somewhat gloss over the GFC and the Labour government's role in laying the groundwork for the UK to be spectacularly b*ggered by it.rick_chasey said:
Given that pretty much every chart in the UK is "gets better till 2010, then gets worse"...wallace_and_gromit said:
To be fair, so could Labour. It's the next 20% layer of voters that are key. The Tories' are just more loyal to the cause than Labour's. The Tories want power whilst Labour seems to prefer a lot of introspection about what's right with winning GEs a handy side-effect if the planets align.rick_chasey said:Lol Tories could murder every 4th child and they'd still get 20% of the vote.
In a mirror-image universe, Stevo is now a disaffected former Labour loyalist who is voting Green whereas our Stevo will be voting Tory even after a Tory government passes a law granting "Droits de Seigneur" over Mrs Stevo to the 1922 Committee.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
The problem is that per my earlier comment, you need to exclude the period when the consequences of Brown's hubris emerged post-GFC to conclude consistent real wage growth during the Labour years. Or indeed consistency in most good economic metrics. There were 10/11 years of steady "good things" followed 2 years of an almighty sh*t show in terms of economic measures.rick_chasey said:
You really think so? I mean, rhetoric about boom or bust aside, what's your problem with the economic track record there? Looks pretty rosy to me.wallace_and_gromit said:
That is some understatement!rick_chasey said:Sure, he [Brown] didn't run it [the economy] perfectly...
Vast amounts of children lifted out of poverty. Real wage growth, consistently. What more do you want?
I'll grant you that his heart was in the right place and that he supported a lot of public spending on social issues. This is definitely an area where the Tories undid a lot of good work. But even so, all lifting children out of poverty really requires is the political will to spend a lot of other people's money. You don't need any great skill to do that.
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