LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!
Comments
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They both only show those with elections - there's a lot more dark grey in the 2023 (no overall control).Dorset_Boy said:
No elections in Dorset this time for one.Pross said:Why are there more missing Councils on the 2023 map?
Maps aren't like for like - 2019 looks like it shows all councils whereas 2023 only shows those with elections last week?
The lightest colour on both is where there was no election. 2019 was a pretty bad local election for the Conservative party as well.
The South East has a few backward places that are holding on as blue, but not many.0 -
Well, in some instances it was merely boosting the economy in the same way that I can boost my savings by selling my car. But I no longer have a car.rjsterry said:
Perish the thought 😏Stevo_666 said:
We're past the 80s now FA...and you should be past lazy leftie sterotyping.First.Aspect said:
Thing is Stevo, this time around, there are no nationalised industries left to sell on the cheap to your mates to create the illusion of prosperity. So we kind of need someone capable of independent thought, rather than more Thatcher worshiping posh boys.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much what I was up to aged 13, more the 25% inflation, unions holding the country to ransom, censored nationalised industries, UK going cap in hand to the IMF, etcsungod said:
why?Stevo_666 said:
And we sure as hell don't want to go back there.rick_chasey said:
Yes this isn’t 1979surrey_commuter said:
What do you think they would do worse than Brexit, nationalisation, increased red tape, yo-young corp tax and record high personal taxation?Stevo_666 said:
If a Labour win is as nailed on as some people claim, then the looney left is what we should be concerned about.surrey_commuter said:Why are people so convinced the Tories will be wiped out, so enabling them to de-loon themselves.
Surely it is more likely it will look like 1997 with 30% of the vote and 165 seats. As the safest seats seem to be held by the biggest loons there problems may only just be starting.
Whilst I am quite content with Sunak, I find your fear of non blue rosettes to be strange as you seem to fear the very things your own side does.
in 1979 i was having a great time, the next 2-3 decades were pretty good too
But seriously, privatisation of utilities did provide a boost to the economy and right to buy did open up the option of home ownership, and Sunak or anyone else just doesn't have those options available. Clearly Stop the Boats isn't enough and is never going to happen anyway. So what then?
I was a bit young, but my recollection was that these sell offs created a FOMO mania in the public, and that there was wall-to-wall press coverage beforehand telling everyone what great wealth they would be missing out on.
I'm less sure there was any great philosophical shift in the pubic views in general. And if there was, nationalised inefficiencies have been replaced by costs bleeding out to shareholders (now typically consolidated into large institutional investors, rather than the bloke next door) and there is some remorse among those of us left alive who can remember the alternative.
Has there really been any great improvement to service or value? Or is that what we are told because it's too late now?0 -
I'm too young to remember this personally, but it was apparently a very long process to get a phone installed in the 70s, whereas it's pretty straightforward now.First.Aspect said:
Has there really been any great improvement to service or value?rjsterry said:
Perish the thought 😏Stevo_666 said:
We're past the 80s now FA...and you should be past lazy leftie sterotyping.First.Aspect said:
Thing is Stevo, this time around, there are no nationalised industries left to sell on the cheap to your mates to create the illusion of prosperity. So we kind of need someone capable of independent thought, rather than more Thatcher worshiping posh boys.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much what I was up to aged 13, more the 25% inflation, unions holding the country to ransom, censored nationalised industries, UK going cap in hand to the IMF, etcsungod said:
why?Stevo_666 said:
And we sure as hell don't want to go back there.rick_chasey said:
Yes this isn’t 1979surrey_commuter said:
What do you think they would do worse than Brexit, nationalisation, increased red tape, yo-young corp tax and record high personal taxation?Stevo_666 said:
If a Labour win is as nailed on as some people claim, then the looney left is what we should be concerned about.surrey_commuter said:Why are people so convinced the Tories will be wiped out, so enabling them to de-loon themselves.
Surely it is more likely it will look like 1997 with 30% of the vote and 165 seats. As the safest seats seem to be held by the biggest loons there problems may only just be starting.
Whilst I am quite content with Sunak, I find your fear of non blue rosettes to be strange as you seem to fear the very things your own side does.
in 1979 i was having a great time, the next 2-3 decades were pretty good too
But seriously, privatisation of utilities did provide a boost to the economy and right to buy did open up the option of home ownership, and Sunak or anyone else just doesn't have those options available. Clearly Stop the Boats isn't enough and is never going to happen anyway. So what then?
The current set up for the trains suggests that ownership isn't the issue with public services. The issue is management and staff relations. The trains are essentially nationalised again, and in general work very well other than when staff are on strike. I've been travelling York to London regularly for the last 20 years and the quality of service pre-pandemic was independent of who was running it.
GNER was my favourite in the early 2000s when there was a proper breakfast on the way down, and Chateau Mazar on the way home (and my previous employer funded 1st class travel) but tbh, the primary purpose of a train company is to run trains rather than provide catering, so the demise of these trappings of a bygone era is sad, but not material to train services per se.
Post-pandemic, the service has continued to be pretty good, despite legitimate issues re staffing in the early days of Covid restrictions being lifted, other then when staff have been on strike, where the "management" are somewhat hamstrung re staff relations by their paymasters in the Treasury's subsidy department.
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Getting your phone connected quickly is more about technology than anything else.
Personally, I think privatisation of fundamental public services such as water and transportation - where for a given location there is a monopoly - is a terrible idea. It seems to work better where there is genuine competition, e.g. BA, electricity. That said, needs to be done carefully. I distinctly remember the fiasco in Oxford after the busses were privatised and all of the new companies went after the same routes, causing jams and pollution in the city centre and leaving people in the sticks with fewer services.0 -
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Paging Rick Chasey. 😉
Ah, too late. 🤣The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Conservative government has explained that this will enable us to have bigger vehicles on our roads and transport less goods by train. What's not to like?rick_chasey said:Can't say I'm especially happy with longer lorries....
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As someone who spends most of his professional life foruming, I mean calling people, actual phone calls seem to have gone backwards.
The amount of calls that spontaneously drop, lines that still seem to get crossed etc.0 -
Getting run over by them on the bike!!First.Aspect said:
Conservative government has explained that this will enable us to have bigger vehicles on our roads and transport less goods by train. What's not to like?rick_chasey said:Can't say I'm especially happy with longer lorries....
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No reaction to the trains are great post?pblakeney said:Paging Rick Chasey. 😉
Ah, too late. 🤣The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Think back to what British Rail was like. Historically, public ownership is the aberration as they all started off as private enterprises.First.Aspect said:
Well, in some instances it was merely boosting the economy in the same way that I can boost my savings by selling my car. But I no longer have a car.rjsterry said:
Perish the thought 😏Stevo_666 said:
We're past the 80s now FA...and you should be past lazy leftie sterotyping.First.Aspect said:
Thing is Stevo, this time around, there are no nationalised industries left to sell on the cheap to your mates to create the illusion of prosperity. So we kind of need someone capable of independent thought, rather than more Thatcher worshiping posh boys.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much what I was up to aged 13, more the 25% inflation, unions holding the country to ransom, censored nationalised industries, UK going cap in hand to the IMF, etcsungod said:
why?Stevo_666 said:
And we sure as hell don't want to go back there.rick_chasey said:
Yes this isn’t 1979surrey_commuter said:
What do you think they would do worse than Brexit, nationalisation, increased red tape, yo-young corp tax and record high personal taxation?Stevo_666 said:
If a Labour win is as nailed on as some people claim, then the looney left is what we should be concerned about.surrey_commuter said:Why are people so convinced the Tories will be wiped out, so enabling them to de-loon themselves.
Surely it is more likely it will look like 1997 with 30% of the vote and 165 seats. As the safest seats seem to be held by the biggest loons there problems may only just be starting.
Whilst I am quite content with Sunak, I find your fear of non blue rosettes to be strange as you seem to fear the very things your own side does.
in 1979 i was having a great time, the next 2-3 decades were pretty good too
But seriously, privatisation of utilities did provide a boost to the economy and right to buy did open up the option of home ownership, and Sunak or anyone else just doesn't have those options available. Clearly Stop the Boats isn't enough and is never going to happen anyway. So what then?
I was a bit young, but my recollection was that these sell offs created a FOMO mania in the public, and that there was wall-to-wall press coverage beforehand telling everyone what great wealth they would be missing out on.
I'm less sure there was any great philosophical shift in the pubic views in general. And if there was, nationalised inefficiencies have been replaced by costs bleeding out to shareholders (now typically consolidated into large institutional investors, rather than the bloke next door) and there is some remorse among those of us left alive who can remember the alternative.
Has there really been any great improvement to service or value? Or is that what we are told because it's too late now?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
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You must be having a good day.rick_chasey said:
I was looking forward to a good rant. 😉The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Well today was a classic example.pblakeney said:
Working late, last night, arranged a call at 8am this morning. My train normally comes in by 7:30 and i'm in the office at 7:50.
Now, I am so used to trains not being reliable, I now just arrange another time in case my train is delayed. Not only that, when I explain I am coming in by train so I will try for 8 but it could easily be later, no-one is surprised. "totally understand". Indeed, it was late, so my call is now happening this afternoon.
That's how common train delays are.
When I arrange breakfast meetings> usually 8am or 8:15 at the restaurant, I agree a time early in the morning on the day (usually 7am), depending on where the person I'm meeting is coming from, before which we need to confirm the trains are on time, else it's cancelled.
The lack of train reliability is now just baked into everyone's plans. It's pathetic.1 -
So is allowing women to vote. Not sure that there's necessarily a good argument there tbh.rjsterry said:
Think back to what British Rail was like. Historically, public ownership is the aberration as they all started off as private enterprises.First.Aspect said:
Well, in some instances it was merely boosting the economy in the same way that I can boost my savings by selling my car. But I no longer have a car.rjsterry said:
Perish the thought 😏Stevo_666 said:
We're past the 80s now FA...and you should be past lazy leftie sterotyping.First.Aspect said:
Thing is Stevo, this time around, there are no nationalised industries left to sell on the cheap to your mates to create the illusion of prosperity. So we kind of need someone capable of independent thought, rather than more Thatcher worshiping posh boys.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much what I was up to aged 13, more the 25% inflation, unions holding the country to ransom, censored nationalised industries, UK going cap in hand to the IMF, etcsungod said:
why?Stevo_666 said:
And we sure as hell don't want to go back there.rick_chasey said:
Yes this isn’t 1979surrey_commuter said:
What do you think they would do worse than Brexit, nationalisation, increased red tape, yo-young corp tax and record high personal taxation?Stevo_666 said:
If a Labour win is as nailed on as some people claim, then the looney left is what we should be concerned about.surrey_commuter said:Why are people so convinced the Tories will be wiped out, so enabling them to de-loon themselves.
Surely it is more likely it will look like 1997 with 30% of the vote and 165 seats. As the safest seats seem to be held by the biggest loons there problems may only just be starting.
Whilst I am quite content with Sunak, I find your fear of non blue rosettes to be strange as you seem to fear the very things your own side does.
in 1979 i was having a great time, the next 2-3 decades were pretty good too
But seriously, privatisation of utilities did provide a boost to the economy and right to buy did open up the option of home ownership, and Sunak or anyone else just doesn't have those options available. Clearly Stop the Boats isn't enough and is never going to happen anyway. So what then?
I was a bit young, but my recollection was that these sell offs created a FOMO mania in the public, and that there was wall-to-wall press coverage beforehand telling everyone what great wealth they would be missing out on.
I'm less sure there was any great philosophical shift in the pubic views in general. And if there was, nationalised inefficiencies have been replaced by costs bleeding out to shareholders (now typically consolidated into large institutional investors, rather than the bloke next door) and there is some remorse among those of us left alive who can remember the alternative.
Has there really been any great improvement to service or value? Or is that what we are told because it's too late now?
Personally I can't help but notice how much better public and publicly owned transport is elsewhere, compared to the omnishambles we have.
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I used to think Dutch trains were much more reliable. Same with German.First.Aspect said:
Personally I can't help but notice how much better public and publicly owned transport is elsewhere, compared to the omnishambles we have.
Unfortunately that's not the case anymore. They're just as bad as Brits. And they're also not as cheap as they used to be either > though still 50% of the price of British trains.
That's what sticks in the craw. It's not just the lack of reliability. It's the fact if you travel annually it costs you the price of a car ever year to enjoy the inconvenience.
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You will certainly know more than me, I accept. My only recent experiences have been between Amseterdam/Hauge and commuting to Munich from the outskirts. Both were clean, fast, frequent and on time every time. Small sample size, I know.rick_chasey said:
I used to think Dutch trains were much more reliable. Same with German.First.Aspect said:
Personally I can't help but notice how much better public and publicly owned transport is elsewhere, compared to the omnishambles we have.
Unfortunately that's not the case anymore. They're just as bad as Brits. And they're also not as cheap as they used to be either > though still 50% of the price of British trains.
That's what sticks in the craw. It's not just the lack of reliability. It's the fact if you travel annually it costs you the price of a car ever year to enjoy the inconvenience.
Before I decide whether or not to take the train from here to Edinburgh, I need to check whether it ever set off in the first place, depending on whether some bloke in Galasheils decided to pull a sickie or not.0 -
Maybe LNER realise how important I am and pull out the stops just for me. Obviously, for the plebs like you, the TOCs won't care.rick_chasey said:
Well today was a classic example.pblakeney said:
Working late, last night, arranged a call at 8am this morning. My train normally comes in by 7:30 and i'm in the office at 7:50.
Now, I am so used to trains not being reliable, I now just arrange another time in case my train is delayed. Not only that, when I explain I am coming in by train so I will try for 8 but it could easily be later, no-one is surprised. "totally understand". Indeed, it was late, so my call is now happening this afternoon.
That's how common train delays are.
When I arrange breakfast meetings> usually 8am or 8:15 at the restaurant, I agree a time early in the morning on the day (usually 7am), depending on where the person I'm meeting is coming from, before which we need to confirm the trains are on time, else it's cancelled.
The lack of train reliability is now just baked into everyone's plans. It's pathetic.
But seriously, are the issues you face (and I do sympathise, having been left "high and dry" by transport failures more than a few times, for whatever reason) due to ownership structure, dodgy management, undue political influence, unrealistic price controls, staff shortages due to lack of training in pandemic era etc?0 -
Pfft. If it was easy, it'd have been sorted.
I think the problem is a mixture of extremely old infrastructure that costs too much to be appropriately upgraded, a real byzantine mix of companies and organisations responsible for different aspects of the whole thing where there is a real incentive to pass the buck rather than sort it out, and a dramatic drop in revenues due to less travel post covid.0 -
Now I feel like old father time but can vividly remember this.First.Aspect said:
Well, in some instances it was merely boosting the economy in the same way that I can boost my savings by selling my car. But I no longer have a car.rjsterry said:
Perish the thought 😏Stevo_666 said:
We're past the 80s now FA...and you should be past lazy leftie sterotyping.First.Aspect said:
Thing is Stevo, this time around, there are no nationalised industries left to sell on the cheap to your mates to create the illusion of prosperity. So we kind of need someone capable of independent thought, rather than more Thatcher worshiping posh boys.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much what I was up to aged 13, more the 25% inflation, unions holding the country to ransom, censored nationalised industries, UK going cap in hand to the IMF, etcsungod said:
why?Stevo_666 said:
And we sure as hell don't want to go back there.rick_chasey said:
Yes this isn’t 1979surrey_commuter said:
What do you think they would do worse than Brexit, nationalisation, increased red tape, yo-young corp tax and record high personal taxation?Stevo_666 said:
If a Labour win is as nailed on as some people claim, then the looney left is what we should be concerned about.surrey_commuter said:Why are people so convinced the Tories will be wiped out, so enabling them to de-loon themselves.
Surely it is more likely it will look like 1997 with 30% of the vote and 165 seats. As the safest seats seem to be held by the biggest loons there problems may only just be starting.
Whilst I am quite content with Sunak, I find your fear of non blue rosettes to be strange as you seem to fear the very things your own side does.
in 1979 i was having a great time, the next 2-3 decades were pretty good too
But seriously, privatisation of utilities did provide a boost to the economy and right to buy did open up the option of home ownership, and Sunak or anyone else just doesn't have those options available. Clearly Stop the Boats isn't enough and is never going to happen anyway. So what then?
I was a bit young, but my recollection was that these sell offs created a FOMO mania in the public, and that there was wall-to-wall press coverage beforehand telling everyone what great wealth they would be missing out on.
I'm less sure there was any great philosophical shift in the pubic views in general. And if there was, nationalised inefficiencies have been replaced by costs bleeding out to shareholders (now typically consolidated into large institutional investors, rather than the bloke next door) and there is some remorse among those of us left alive who can remember the alternative.
Has there really been any great improvement to service or value? Or is that what we are told because it's too late now?
Nobody had floated shares on anywhere near this scale so they were going into the unknown hence the low price. There was no FOMO as applications were scaled back to a few hundred shares which was fine if you were a student with £800 for the term but insignificant to wealthy folk.
It usd to be very expensive and a long wait (months) for a landline.
The unintended genius of privatisation was to offload massive public sector pension liabilities to the private sector.
Anybody who harks back to BR never had to use it.1 -
You forgot unions' pathological rejection of technology based efficiency improvements.rick_chasey said:Pfft. If it was easy, it'd have been sorted.
I think the problem is a mixture of extremely old infrastructure that costs too much to be appropriately upgraded, a real byzantine mix of companies and organisations responsible for different aspects of the whole thing where there is a real incentive to pass the buck rather than sort it out, and a dramatic drop in revenues due to less travel post covid.
I'm not letting those mechanical weaving machines take my place.0 -
It's publicly owned here, too. They've been re-nationalised on the quiet.First.Aspect said:
So is allowing women to vote. Not sure that there's necessarily a good argument there tbh.rjsterry said:
Think back to what British Rail was like. Historically, public ownership is the aberration as they all started off as private enterprises.First.Aspect said:
Well, in some instances it was merely boosting the economy in the same way that I can boost my savings by selling my car. But I no longer have a car.rjsterry said:
Perish the thought 😏Stevo_666 said:
We're past the 80s now FA...and you should be past lazy leftie sterotyping.First.Aspect said:
Thing is Stevo, this time around, there are no nationalised industries left to sell on the cheap to your mates to create the illusion of prosperity. So we kind of need someone capable of independent thought, rather than more Thatcher worshiping posh boys.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much what I was up to aged 13, more the 25% inflation, unions holding the country to ransom, censored nationalised industries, UK going cap in hand to the IMF, etcsungod said:
why?Stevo_666 said:
And we sure as hell don't want to go back there.rick_chasey said:
Yes this isn’t 1979surrey_commuter said:
What do you think they would do worse than Brexit, nationalisation, increased red tape, yo-young corp tax and record high personal taxation?Stevo_666 said:
If a Labour win is as nailed on as some people claim, then the looney left is what we should be concerned about.surrey_commuter said:Why are people so convinced the Tories will be wiped out, so enabling them to de-loon themselves.
Surely it is more likely it will look like 1997 with 30% of the vote and 165 seats. As the safest seats seem to be held by the biggest loons there problems may only just be starting.
Whilst I am quite content with Sunak, I find your fear of non blue rosettes to be strange as you seem to fear the very things your own side does.
in 1979 i was having a great time, the next 2-3 decades were pretty good too
But seriously, privatisation of utilities did provide a boost to the economy and right to buy did open up the option of home ownership, and Sunak or anyone else just doesn't have those options available. Clearly Stop the Boats isn't enough and is never going to happen anyway. So what then?
I was a bit young, but my recollection was that these sell offs created a FOMO mania in the public, and that there was wall-to-wall press coverage beforehand telling everyone what great wealth they would be missing out on.
I'm less sure there was any great philosophical shift in the pubic views in general. And if there was, nationalised inefficiencies have been replaced by costs bleeding out to shareholders (now typically consolidated into large institutional investors, rather than the bloke next door) and there is some remorse among those of us left alive who can remember the alternative.
Has there really been any great improvement to service or value? Or is that what we are told because it's too late now?
Personally I can't help but notice how much better public and publicly owned transport is elsewhere, compared to the omnishambles we have.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
You may get some push back on that assertion.rjsterry said:
It's publicly owned here, too. They've been re-nationalised on the quiet.First.Aspect said:
So is allowing women to vote. Not sure that there's necessarily a good argument there tbh.rjsterry said:
Think back to what British Rail was like. Historically, public ownership is the aberration as they all started off as private enterprises.First.Aspect said:
Well, in some instances it was merely boosting the economy in the same way that I can boost my savings by selling my car. But I no longer have a car.rjsterry said:
Perish the thought 😏Stevo_666 said:
We're past the 80s now FA...and you should be past lazy leftie sterotyping.First.Aspect said:
Thing is Stevo, this time around, there are no nationalised industries left to sell on the cheap to your mates to create the illusion of prosperity. So we kind of need someone capable of independent thought, rather than more Thatcher worshiping posh boys.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much what I was up to aged 13, more the 25% inflation, unions holding the country to ransom, censored nationalised industries, UK going cap in hand to the IMF, etcsungod said:
why?Stevo_666 said:
And we sure as hell don't want to go back there.rick_chasey said:
Yes this isn’t 1979surrey_commuter said:
What do you think they would do worse than Brexit, nationalisation, increased red tape, yo-young corp tax and record high personal taxation?Stevo_666 said:
If a Labour win is as nailed on as some people claim, then the looney left is what we should be concerned about.surrey_commuter said:Why are people so convinced the Tories will be wiped out, so enabling them to de-loon themselves.
Surely it is more likely it will look like 1997 with 30% of the vote and 165 seats. As the safest seats seem to be held by the biggest loons there problems may only just be starting.
Whilst I am quite content with Sunak, I find your fear of non blue rosettes to be strange as you seem to fear the very things your own side does.
in 1979 i was having a great time, the next 2-3 decades were pretty good too
But seriously, privatisation of utilities did provide a boost to the economy and right to buy did open up the option of home ownership, and Sunak or anyone else just doesn't have those options available. Clearly Stop the Boats isn't enough and is never going to happen anyway. So what then?
I was a bit young, but my recollection was that these sell offs created a FOMO mania in the public, and that there was wall-to-wall press coverage beforehand telling everyone what great wealth they would be missing out on.
I'm less sure there was any great philosophical shift in the pubic views in general. And if there was, nationalised inefficiencies have been replaced by costs bleeding out to shareholders (now typically consolidated into large institutional investors, rather than the bloke next door) and there is some remorse among those of us left alive who can remember the alternative.
Has there really been any great improvement to service or value? Or is that what we are told because it's too late now?
Personally I can't help but notice how much better public and publicly owned transport is elsewhere, compared to the omnishambles we have.
Certainly in Scotland they have, but the people running it now can't run a small member's club competently, so it's not a fair comparison.0 -
Never said it was easy!rick_chasey said:Pfft. If it was easy, it'd have been sorted.
I think the problem is a mixture of extremely old infrastructure that costs too much to be appropriately upgraded, a real byzantine mix of companies and organisations responsible for different aspects of the whole thing where there is a real incentive to pass the buck rather than sort it out, and a dramatic drop in revenues due to less travel post covid.
I largely agree with the rest of your post though. From my perspective, the key difference is whether or not the "service" is run as a service to the public (I guess with "public services" the clue is in the name) with revenue generation possibilities, or as a business that should "wash its face" as a standalone business.
I've come to the conclusion that the former is the only way to go for many public services, simply because the costs are too great / uncertain and the payback periods too long for the private sector to be interested without subsidies. And if subsidies are involved then the private sector should only be involved as a service provider to the government on commercial terms.
Nuclear power has always remained in the public sector (clean up costs too high, impact of impact of disaster too high, even if risk is very low) and IIRC, the rail tracks themselves were renationalised after the Hatfield crash when it became apparent that the repair costs nationwide were way beyond what had been included in the privatisation number crunching.
Reliable trains, buses, power supplies etc. are the bare minimum of what a civilised society should expect. The flip side of course is that people should be prepared to pay a fair amount to enable such services to be provided, rather than hoping for "closing loopholes" and "taxing the rich" to do the heavy lifting.1 -
Push away. The operators are now effectively government contractors.First.Aspect said:
You may get some push back on that assertion.rjsterry said:
It's publicly owned here, too. They've been re-nationalised on the quiet.First.Aspect said:
So is allowing women to vote. Not sure that there's necessarily a good argument there tbh.rjsterry said:
Think back to what British Rail was like. Historically, public ownership is the aberration as they all started off as private enterprises.First.Aspect said:
Well, in some instances it was merely boosting the economy in the same way that I can boost my savings by selling my car. But I no longer have a car.rjsterry said:
Perish the thought 😏Stevo_666 said:
We're past the 80s now FA...and you should be past lazy leftie sterotyping.First.Aspect said:
Thing is Stevo, this time around, there are no nationalised industries left to sell on the cheap to your mates to create the illusion of prosperity. So we kind of need someone capable of independent thought, rather than more Thatcher worshiping posh boys.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much what I was up to aged 13, more the 25% inflation, unions holding the country to ransom, censored nationalised industries, UK going cap in hand to the IMF, etcsungod said:
why?Stevo_666 said:
And we sure as hell don't want to go back there.rick_chasey said:
Yes this isn’t 1979surrey_commuter said:
What do you think they would do worse than Brexit, nationalisation, increased red tape, yo-young corp tax and record high personal taxation?Stevo_666 said:
If a Labour win is as nailed on as some people claim, then the looney left is what we should be concerned about.surrey_commuter said:Why are people so convinced the Tories will be wiped out, so enabling them to de-loon themselves.
Surely it is more likely it will look like 1997 with 30% of the vote and 165 seats. As the safest seats seem to be held by the biggest loons there problems may only just be starting.
Whilst I am quite content with Sunak, I find your fear of non blue rosettes to be strange as you seem to fear the very things your own side does.
in 1979 i was having a great time, the next 2-3 decades were pretty good too
But seriously, privatisation of utilities did provide a boost to the economy and right to buy did open up the option of home ownership, and Sunak or anyone else just doesn't have those options available. Clearly Stop the Boats isn't enough and is never going to happen anyway. So what then?
I was a bit young, but my recollection was that these sell offs created a FOMO mania in the public, and that there was wall-to-wall press coverage beforehand telling everyone what great wealth they would be missing out on.
I'm less sure there was any great philosophical shift in the pubic views in general. And if there was, nationalised inefficiencies have been replaced by costs bleeding out to shareholders (now typically consolidated into large institutional investors, rather than the bloke next door) and there is some remorse among those of us left alive who can remember the alternative.
Has there really been any great improvement to service or value? Or is that what we are told because it's too late now?
Personally I can't help but notice how much better public and publicly owned transport is elsewhere, compared to the omnishambles we have.
Certainly in Scotland they have, but the people running it now can't run a small member's club competently, so it's not a fair comparison.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Well that's not the same thing. Any more than a PPE supplier is part of the NHS.rjsterry said:
Push away. The operators are now effectively government contractors.First.Aspect said:
You may get some push back on that assertion.rjsterry said:
It's publicly owned here, too. They've been re-nationalised on the quiet.First.Aspect said:
So is allowing women to vote. Not sure that there's necessarily a good argument there tbh.rjsterry said:
Think back to what British Rail was like. Historically, public ownership is the aberration as they all started off as private enterprises.First.Aspect said:
Well, in some instances it was merely boosting the economy in the same way that I can boost my savings by selling my car. But I no longer have a car.rjsterry said:
Perish the thought 😏Stevo_666 said:
We're past the 80s now FA...and you should be past lazy leftie sterotyping.First.Aspect said:
Thing is Stevo, this time around, there are no nationalised industries left to sell on the cheap to your mates to create the illusion of prosperity. So we kind of need someone capable of independent thought, rather than more Thatcher worshiping posh boys.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much what I was up to aged 13, more the 25% inflation, unions holding the country to ransom, censored nationalised industries, UK going cap in hand to the IMF, etcsungod said:
why?Stevo_666 said:
And we sure as hell don't want to go back there.rick_chasey said:
Yes this isn’t 1979surrey_commuter said:
What do you think they would do worse than Brexit, nationalisation, increased red tape, yo-young corp tax and record high personal taxation?Stevo_666 said:
If a Labour win is as nailed on as some people claim, then the looney left is what we should be concerned about.surrey_commuter said:Why are people so convinced the Tories will be wiped out, so enabling them to de-loon themselves.
Surely it is more likely it will look like 1997 with 30% of the vote and 165 seats. As the safest seats seem to be held by the biggest loons there problems may only just be starting.
Whilst I am quite content with Sunak, I find your fear of non blue rosettes to be strange as you seem to fear the very things your own side does.
in 1979 i was having a great time, the next 2-3 decades were pretty good too
But seriously, privatisation of utilities did provide a boost to the economy and right to buy did open up the option of home ownership, and Sunak or anyone else just doesn't have those options available. Clearly Stop the Boats isn't enough and is never going to happen anyway. So what then?
I was a bit young, but my recollection was that these sell offs created a FOMO mania in the public, and that there was wall-to-wall press coverage beforehand telling everyone what great wealth they would be missing out on.
I'm less sure there was any great philosophical shift in the pubic views in general. And if there was, nationalised inefficiencies have been replaced by costs bleeding out to shareholders (now typically consolidated into large institutional investors, rather than the bloke next door) and there is some remorse among those of us left alive who can remember the alternative.
Has there really been any great improvement to service or value? Or is that what we are told because it's too late now?
Personally I can't help but notice how much better public and publicly owned transport is elsewhere, compared to the omnishambles we have.
Certainly in Scotland they have, but the people running it now can't run a small member's club competently, so it's not a fair comparison.
0 -
I can't see them being too popular with hauliers to be honest. Outside of the principal road network the infrastructure often isn't great even for the current 16.5m 'maximum legal' vehicles. They may be useful for doing trips between distribution centres located on motorways and trunk roads but not much else. When I used to do a lot of work for Tesco part of it involved simulating vehicle movements in their service yards, they would then fill every spare space with plant and kit. Once operational additional stuff would get dumped in the service yard taking up the space needed so I really don't see a 2m longer vehicle being practical.rick_chasey said:Can't say I'm especially happy with longer lorries....
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when you look at how densely populated London is and how high fares are yetTFL needs a massive annual subsidy you really do wonder what the problem is.wallace_and_gromit said:
Never said it was easy!rick_chasey said:Pfft. If it was easy, it'd have been sorted.
I think the problem is a mixture of extremely old infrastructure that costs too much to be appropriately upgraded, a real byzantine mix of companies and organisations responsible for different aspects of the whole thing where there is a real incentive to pass the buck rather than sort it out, and a dramatic drop in revenues due to less travel post covid.
I largely agree with the rest of your post though. From my perspective, the key difference is whether or not the "service" is run as a service to the public (I guess with "public services" the clue is in the name) with revenue generation possibilities, or as a business that should "wash its face" as a standalone business.
I've come to the conclusion that the former is the only way to go for many public services, simply because the costs are too great / uncertain and the payback periods too long for the private sector to be interested without subsidies. And if subsidies are involved then the private sector should only be involved as a service provider to the government on commercial terms.
Nuclear power has always remained in the public sector (clean up costs too high, impact of impact of disaster too high, even if risk is very low) and IIRC, the rail tracks themselves were renationalised after the Hatfield crash when it became apparent that the repair costs nationwide were way beyond what had been included in the privatisation number crunching.
Reliable trains, buses, power supplies etc. are the bare minimum of what a civilised society should expect. The flip side of course is that people should be prepared to pay a fair amount to enable such services to be provided, rather than hoping for "closing loopholes" and "taxing the rich" to do the heavy lifting.0 -
It feels unlikely that 2m longer lorries will be a material benefit to the nation as a whole! Or even a noticeable one.Pross said:
I can't see them being too popular with hauliers to be honest. Outside of the principal road network the infrastructure often isn't great even for the current 16.5m 'maximum legal' vehicles. They may be useful for doing trips between distribution centres located on motorways and trunk roads but not much else. When I used to do a lot of work for Tesco part of it involved simulating vehicle movements in their service yards, they would then fill every spare space with plant and kit. Once operational additional stuff would get dumped in the service yard taking up the space needed so I really don't see a 2m longer vehicle being practical.rick_chasey said:Can't say I'm especially happy with longer lorries....
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No it's not like that either.First.Aspect said:
Well that's not the same thing. Any more than a PPE supplier is part of the NHS.rjsterry said:
Push away. The operators are now effectively government contractors.First.Aspect said:
You may get some push back on that assertion.rjsterry said:
It's publicly owned here, too. They've been re-nationalised on the quiet.First.Aspect said:
So is allowing women to vote. Not sure that there's necessarily a good argument there tbh.rjsterry said:
Think back to what British Rail was like. Historically, public ownership is the aberration as they all started off as private enterprises.First.Aspect said:
Well, in some instances it was merely boosting the economy in the same way that I can boost my savings by selling my car. But I no longer have a car.rjsterry said:
Perish the thought 😏Stevo_666 said:
We're past the 80s now FA...and you should be past lazy leftie sterotyping.First.Aspect said:
Thing is Stevo, this time around, there are no nationalised industries left to sell on the cheap to your mates to create the illusion of prosperity. So we kind of need someone capable of independent thought, rather than more Thatcher worshiping posh boys.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much what I was up to aged 13, more the 25% inflation, unions holding the country to ransom, censored nationalised industries, UK going cap in hand to the IMF, etcsungod said:
why?Stevo_666 said:
And we sure as hell don't want to go back there.rick_chasey said:
Yes this isn’t 1979surrey_commuter said:
What do you think they would do worse than Brexit, nationalisation, increased red tape, yo-young corp tax and record high personal taxation?Stevo_666 said:
If a Labour win is as nailed on as some people claim, then the looney left is what we should be concerned about.surrey_commuter said:Why are people so convinced the Tories will be wiped out, so enabling them to de-loon themselves.
Surely it is more likely it will look like 1997 with 30% of the vote and 165 seats. As the safest seats seem to be held by the biggest loons there problems may only just be starting.
Whilst I am quite content with Sunak, I find your fear of non blue rosettes to be strange as you seem to fear the very things your own side does.
in 1979 i was having a great time, the next 2-3 decades were pretty good too
But seriously, privatisation of utilities did provide a boost to the economy and right to buy did open up the option of home ownership, and Sunak or anyone else just doesn't have those options available. Clearly Stop the Boats isn't enough and is never going to happen anyway. So what then?
I was a bit young, but my recollection was that these sell offs created a FOMO mania in the public, and that there was wall-to-wall press coverage beforehand telling everyone what great wealth they would be missing out on.
I'm less sure there was any great philosophical shift in the pubic views in general. And if there was, nationalised inefficiencies have been replaced by costs bleeding out to shareholders (now typically consolidated into large institutional investors, rather than the bloke next door) and there is some remorse among those of us left alive who can remember the alternative.
Has there really been any great improvement to service or value? Or is that what we are told because it's too late now?
Personally I can't help but notice how much better public and publicly owned transport is elsewhere, compared to the omnishambles we have.
Certainly in Scotland they have, but the people running it now can't run a small member's club competently, so it's not a fair comparison.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0
