LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!
Comments
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I dunno it seems very “did you know people usually have two legs and two arms” stating the obvious.morstar said:
What’s your point? It’s a topic that gets discussed on here regularly and here is an article on it in the press. Therefore it seemed relevant to share.rick_chasey said:
Haven’t people been saying this for about 6-7 years at least?morstar said:Thought this was an interesting assessment of where politics currently sits in the UK.
Looks at the current landscape in more than just one dimension.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519
Obviously it isn’t basing it all on age.
Even shortfall et al offer more insight than that particular article0 -
Feels very "those elites hate and sneer at people like you" to me. Not sure it's even got any basis.0
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Worth saying what an utter sh!tshow the withdrawal from Afghanistan is and it is leaving a bunch of people in pretty perilous situations because the govt is washing their hands of the problem even when there are a load of Brits still in the country.
Disgraceful. Bad enough Britain gets sucked into a 15-20 year war which it was bound to lose, another to not respect the people there helping the effort out.
This govt wouldn’t even p!ss on you if you were on fire if it wouldn’t make the papers.0 -
Would any UK presence be viable without US support?rick_chasey said:Worth saying what an utter sh!tshow the withdrawal from Afghanistan is and it is leaving a bunch of people in pretty perilous situations because the govt is washing their hands of the problem even when there are a load of Brits still in the country.
Disgraceful. Bad enough Britain gets sucked into a 15-20 year war which it was bound to lose, another to not respect the people there helping the effort out.
This govt wouldn’t even p!ss on you if you were on fire if it wouldn’t make the papers.0 -
The Brits ought to be capable enough to protect their own citizens trying to get out of the country.Jezyboy said:
Would any UK presence be viable without US support?rick_chasey said:Worth saying what an utter sh!tshow the withdrawal from Afghanistan is and it is leaving a bunch of people in pretty perilous situations because the govt is washing their hands of the problem even when there are a load of Brits still in the country.
Disgraceful. Bad enough Britain gets sucked into a 15-20 year war which it was bound to lose, another to not respect the people there helping the effort out.
This govt wouldn’t even p!ss on you if you were on fire if it wouldn’t make the papers.
Currently the Brit ambassador has had to cancel her trip out (and is now at threat from the taliban) as she is at the airport trying to help all the other brits get out of there.
It's not like any Brit who is still there is there for a jolly.
I'm no flag waving patriot but you should protect your own citizens, especially when they are putting themselves in harms way for said nation.0 -
Generally, and this isn't relevant to the Tory party but since i'm on the topic, it's a pretty humiliating defeat - NATO went in mainly to stop terrorism (apparently) and it has lost to a bunch of extremists who I don't think anyone would describe as having any good level of sophistication - rather just an unending stubbornness.
I guess we should expect to see more terrorism again in the future.
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rick_chasey said:
The Brits ought to be capable enough to protect their own citizens trying to get out of the country.Jezyboy said:
Would any UK presence be viable without US support?rick_chasey said:Worth saying what an utter sh!tshow the withdrawal from Afghanistan is and it is leaving a bunch of people in pretty perilous situations because the govt is washing their hands of the problem even when there are a load of Brits still in the country.
Disgraceful. Bad enough Britain gets sucked into a 15-20 year war which it was bound to lose, another to not respect the people there helping the effort out.
This govt wouldn’t even p!ss on you if you were on fire if it wouldn’t make the papers.
Currently the Brit ambassador has had to cancel her trip out (and is now at threat from the taliban) as she is at the airport trying to help all the other brits get out of there.
It's not like any Brit who is still there is there for a jolly.
I'm no flag waving patriot but you should protect your own citizens, especially when they are putting themselves in harms way for said nation.
I am sure I read that there are a mind boggling 4,000 Brits in Afghanistan plus those we have duty to.rick_chasey said:
The Brits ought to be capable enough to protect their own citizens trying to get out of the country.Jezyboy said:
Would any UK presence be viable without US support?rick_chasey said:Worth saying what an utter sh!tshow the withdrawal from Afghanistan is and it is leaving a bunch of people in pretty perilous situations because the govt is washing their hands of the problem even when there are a load of Brits still in the country.
Disgraceful. Bad enough Britain gets sucked into a 15-20 year war which it was bound to lose, another to not respect the people there helping the effort out.
This govt wouldn’t even p!ss on you if you were on fire if it wouldn’t make the papers.
Currently the Brit ambassador has had to cancel her trip out (and is now at threat from the taliban) as she is at the airport trying to help all the other brits get out of there.
It's not like any Brit who is still there is there for a jolly.
I'm no flag waving patriot but you should protect your own citizens, especially when they are putting themselves in harms way for said nation.
So if we were to secure Bagram airbase and run a safe taxi service to it how many ground troops do you think we would need, how many planes and where would we fly them to?
If we need 5-10,000 boots on the ground I imagine that would take us weeks to get them there.
The time to do something was when Biden said he was pulling out0 -
With Raab prioritising a holiday over Afghanistan and Sharma/Stratton driving diesel cars it does feel like this Govt has given up.1
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Why wait for Biden? He confirmed and slightly delayed the already in progress withdrawal.surrey_commuter said:rick_chasey said:
The Brits ought to be capable enough to protect their own citizens trying to get out of the country.Jezyboy said:
Would any UK presence be viable without US support?rick_chasey said:Worth saying what an utter sh!tshow the withdrawal from Afghanistan is and it is leaving a bunch of people in pretty perilous situations because the govt is washing their hands of the problem even when there are a load of Brits still in the country.
Disgraceful. Bad enough Britain gets sucked into a 15-20 year war which it was bound to lose, another to not respect the people there helping the effort out.
This govt wouldn’t even p!ss on you if you were on fire if it wouldn’t make the papers.
Currently the Brit ambassador has had to cancel her trip out (and is now at threat from the taliban) as she is at the airport trying to help all the other brits get out of there.
It's not like any Brit who is still there is there for a jolly.
I'm no flag waving patriot but you should protect your own citizens, especially when they are putting themselves in harms way for said nation.
I am sure I read that there are a mind boggling 4,000 Brits in Afghanistan plus those we have duty to.rick_chasey said:
The Brits ought to be capable enough to protect their own citizens trying to get out of the country.Jezyboy said:
Would any UK presence be viable without US support?rick_chasey said:Worth saying what an utter sh!tshow the withdrawal from Afghanistan is and it is leaving a bunch of people in pretty perilous situations because the govt is washing their hands of the problem even when there are a load of Brits still in the country.
Disgraceful. Bad enough Britain gets sucked into a 15-20 year war which it was bound to lose, another to not respect the people there helping the effort out.
This govt wouldn’t even p!ss on you if you were on fire if it wouldn’t make the papers.
Currently the Brit ambassador has had to cancel her trip out (and is now at threat from the taliban) as she is at the airport trying to help all the other brits get out of there.
It's not like any Brit who is still there is there for a jolly.
I'm no flag waving patriot but you should protect your own citizens, especially when they are putting themselves in harms way for said nation.
So if we were to secure Bagram airbase and run a safe taxi service to it how many ground troops do you think we would need, how many planes and where would we fly them to?
If we need 5-10,000 boots on the ground I imagine that would take us weeks to get them there.
The time to do something was when Biden said he was pulling out0 -
It doesn't appear as if any other country has managed the withdrawal process well. They perhaps put too much faith in the 300,000 strong Afghan army.0
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If what I am reading is right, there was a sense it had all gone downhill after the Trump admin had started to cut deals with the taliban locals (which is what the Brits got done for in Basra 10 years ago by the way) and this was likely to happen, but i think everyone has been caught by surprise at the speed, especially as Biden seems to have accelerated it which no-one was expecting.surrey_commuter said:rick_chasey said:
The Brits ought to be capable enough to protect their own citizens trying to get out of the country.Jezyboy said:
Would any UK presence be viable without US support?rick_chasey said:Worth saying what an utter sh!tshow the withdrawal from Afghanistan is and it is leaving a bunch of people in pretty perilous situations because the govt is washing their hands of the problem even when there are a load of Brits still in the country.
Disgraceful. Bad enough Britain gets sucked into a 15-20 year war which it was bound to lose, another to not respect the people there helping the effort out.
This govt wouldn’t even p!ss on you if you were on fire if it wouldn’t make the papers.
Currently the Brit ambassador has had to cancel her trip out (and is now at threat from the taliban) as she is at the airport trying to help all the other brits get out of there.
It's not like any Brit who is still there is there for a jolly.
I'm no flag waving patriot but you should protect your own citizens, especially when they are putting themselves in harms way for said nation.
I am sure I read that there are a mind boggling 4,000 Brits in Afghanistan plus those we have duty to.rick_chasey said:
The Brits ought to be capable enough to protect their own citizens trying to get out of the country.Jezyboy said:
Would any UK presence be viable without US support?rick_chasey said:Worth saying what an utter sh!tshow the withdrawal from Afghanistan is and it is leaving a bunch of people in pretty perilous situations because the govt is washing their hands of the problem even when there are a load of Brits still in the country.
Disgraceful. Bad enough Britain gets sucked into a 15-20 year war which it was bound to lose, another to not respect the people there helping the effort out.
This govt wouldn’t even p!ss on you if you were on fire if it wouldn’t make the papers.
Currently the Brit ambassador has had to cancel her trip out (and is now at threat from the taliban) as she is at the airport trying to help all the other brits get out of there.
It's not like any Brit who is still there is there for a jolly.
I'm no flag waving patriot but you should protect your own citizens, especially when they are putting themselves in harms way for said nation.
So if we were to secure Bagram airbase and run a safe taxi service to it how many ground troops do you think we would need, how many planes and where would we fly them to?
If we need 5-10,000 boots on the ground I imagine that would take us weeks to get them there.
The time to do something was when Biden said he was pulling out0 -
Biden delayed it by a few months. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-afghanistan-war-withdrawal/rick_chasey said:
If what I am reading is right, there was a sense it had all gone downhill after the Trump admin had started to cut deals with the taliban locals (which is what the Brits got done for in Basra 10 years ago by the way) and this was likely to happen, but i think everyone has been caught by surprise at the speed, especially as Biden seems to have accelerated it which no-one was expecting.surrey_commuter said:rick_chasey said:
The Brits ought to be capable enough to protect their own citizens trying to get out of the country.Jezyboy said:
Would any UK presence be viable without US support?rick_chasey said:Worth saying what an utter sh!tshow the withdrawal from Afghanistan is and it is leaving a bunch of people in pretty perilous situations because the govt is washing their hands of the problem even when there are a load of Brits still in the country.
Disgraceful. Bad enough Britain gets sucked into a 15-20 year war which it was bound to lose, another to not respect the people there helping the effort out.
This govt wouldn’t even p!ss on you if you were on fire if it wouldn’t make the papers.
Currently the Brit ambassador has had to cancel her trip out (and is now at threat from the taliban) as she is at the airport trying to help all the other brits get out of there.
It's not like any Brit who is still there is there for a jolly.
I'm no flag waving patriot but you should protect your own citizens, especially when they are putting themselves in harms way for said nation.
I am sure I read that there are a mind boggling 4,000 Brits in Afghanistan plus those we have duty to.rick_chasey said:
The Brits ought to be capable enough to protect their own citizens trying to get out of the country.Jezyboy said:
Would any UK presence be viable without US support?rick_chasey said:Worth saying what an utter sh!tshow the withdrawal from Afghanistan is and it is leaving a bunch of people in pretty perilous situations because the govt is washing their hands of the problem even when there are a load of Brits still in the country.
Disgraceful. Bad enough Britain gets sucked into a 15-20 year war which it was bound to lose, another to not respect the people there helping the effort out.
This govt wouldn’t even p!ss on you if you were on fire if it wouldn’t make the papers.
Currently the Brit ambassador has had to cancel her trip out (and is now at threat from the taliban) as she is at the airport trying to help all the other brits get out of there.
It's not like any Brit who is still there is there for a jolly.
I'm no flag waving patriot but you should protect your own citizens, especially when they are putting themselves in harms way for said nation.
So if we were to secure Bagram airbase and run a safe taxi service to it how many ground troops do you think we would need, how many planes and where would we fly them to?
If we need 5-10,000 boots on the ground I imagine that would take us weeks to get them there.
The time to do something was when Biden said he was pulling out0 -
They clearly are pretty sophisticated. You don't take over a country in a couple of days with a disorganised mob. Assuming that Biden wasn't lying through his teeth 5 weeks ago, the Western intelligence services have some big questions to answer.rick_chasey said:Generally, and this isn't relevant to the Tory party but since i'm on the topic, it's a pretty humiliating defeat - NATO went in mainly to stop terrorism (apparently) and it has lost to a bunch of extremists who I don't think anyone would describe as having any good level of sophistication - rather just an unending stubbornness.
I guess we should expect to see more terrorism again in the future.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I'd have been making my own way out last week.
Relying on the government is naive, this government in particular.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
It's been going wrong since this, I'd guess. https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/07/news/rumsfeld-rejects-planto-allow-mullah-omar-to-live-in-dignity-taliban.html0
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That's the most interesting bit of it. Who is funding and supplying them? It was always the case that squeezing this would have been more effective. For example, back in 2001, Iran used to make around 80% of the world's drug busts (by volume) and they did this without any support. A bit of money there and on other drug routes may have paid dividends.rjsterry said:
They clearly are pretty sophisticated. You don't take over a country in a couple of days with a disorganised mob. Assuming that Biden wasn't lying through his teeth 5 weeks ago, the Western intelligence services have some big questions to answer.rick_chasey said:Generally, and this isn't relevant to the Tory party but since i'm on the topic, it's a pretty humiliating defeat - NATO went in mainly to stop terrorism (apparently) and it has lost to a bunch of extremists who I don't think anyone would describe as having any good level of sophistication - rather just an unending stubbornness.
I guess we should expect to see more terrorism again in the future.0 -
Tangent but I read that Syria is now the world's biggest illegal drug producer in an attempt to fund the civil war.TheBigBean said:
That's the most interesting bit of it. Who is funding and supplying them? It was always the case that squeezing this would have been more effective. For example, back in 2001, Iran used to make around 80% of the world's drug busts (by volume) and they did this without any support. A bit of money there and on other drug routes may have paid dividends.rjsterry said:
They clearly are pretty sophisticated. You don't take over a country in a couple of days with a disorganised mob. Assuming that Biden wasn't lying through his teeth 5 weeks ago, the Western intelligence services have some big questions to answer.rick_chasey said:Generally, and this isn't relevant to the Tory party but since i'm on the topic, it's a pretty humiliating defeat - NATO went in mainly to stop terrorism (apparently) and it has lost to a bunch of extremists who I don't think anyone would describe as having any good level of sophistication - rather just an unending stubbornness.
I guess we should expect to see more terrorism again in the future.0 -
I would have packed up and bought a ticket the day Biden gave an end date of Sept 11thpblakeney said:I'd have been making my own way out last week.
Relying on the government is naive, this government in particular.
Do we know how many private security (aka mercenaries) are still active out there?0 -
They are not technologically very sophisticated, nor is their society particularly sophisticated. Chopping off the hands of thieves, stoning women etc, that isn't my idea of sophistication.rjsterry said:
They clearly are pretty sophisticated. You don't take over a country in a couple of days with a disorganised mob. Assuming that Biden wasn't lying through his teeth 5 weeks ago, the Western intelligence services have some big questions to answer.rick_chasey said:Generally, and this isn't relevant to the Tory party but since i'm on the topic, it's a pretty humiliating defeat - NATO went in mainly to stop terrorism (apparently) and it has lost to a bunch of extremists who I don't think anyone would describe as having any good level of sophistication - rather just an unending stubbornness.
I guess we should expect to see more terrorism again in the future.
They are clearly organised and they can fight well (or at least ,they can keep a fight going longer than foreign opponents) - that is not the same thing.0 -
I'd be very surprised if the Taliban went after any foreigners particularly US ones.0
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Eh?TheBigBean said:I'd be very surprised if the Taliban went after any foreigners particularly US ones.
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I think you are underestimating what they have done.rick_chasey said:
They are not technologically very sophisticated, nor is their society particularly sophisticated. Chopping off the hands of thieves, stoning women etc, that isn't my idea of sophistication.rjsterry said:
They clearly are pretty sophisticated. You don't take over a country in a couple of days with a disorganised mob. Assuming that Biden wasn't lying through his teeth 5 weeks ago, the Western intelligence services have some big questions to answer.rick_chasey said:Generally, and this isn't relevant to the Tory party but since i'm on the topic, it's a pretty humiliating defeat - NATO went in mainly to stop terrorism (apparently) and it has lost to a bunch of extremists who I don't think anyone would describe as having any good level of sophistication - rather just an unending stubbornness.
I guess we should expect to see more terrorism again in the future.
They are clearly organised and they can fight well (or at least ,they can keep a fight going longer than foreign opponents) - that is not the same thing.
After a few weeks of easy fighting they have achieved more than Russia did in a decade and USA/NATO did in two decades. Controlling and co-ordinating their forces across a far ranging battlefield suggests a level of sophistication way above the usual image of half a dozen guys with AK's in a Hilux0 -
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Sophistication is having laser guided missiles. Organisation is about knowing where to shoot. Although I agree that the latter is actual sophisticated whereas the former is just gloss.rick_chasey said:I think we have different ideas of sophistication vs organisation.
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you need a sophisticated command structure to be organised. They have successfully fought the world's super power for two decades and then have over run their internal enemies with the minimum of fuss. They are not a drugged up rag tag army.rick_chasey said:I think we have different ideas of sophistication vs organisation.
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It would seem the Afgan army offered little resistance?surrey_commuter said:
I think you are underestimating what they have done.rick_chasey said:
They are not technologically very sophisticated, nor is their society particularly sophisticated. Chopping off the hands of thieves, stoning women etc, that isn't my idea of sophistication.rjsterry said:
They clearly are pretty sophisticated. You don't take over a country in a couple of days with a disorganised mob. Assuming that Biden wasn't lying through his teeth 5 weeks ago, the Western intelligence services have some big questions to answer.rick_chasey said:Generally, and this isn't relevant to the Tory party but since i'm on the topic, it's a pretty humiliating defeat - NATO went in mainly to stop terrorism (apparently) and it has lost to a bunch of extremists who I don't think anyone would describe as having any good level of sophistication - rather just an unending stubbornness.
I guess we should expect to see more terrorism again in the future.
They are clearly organised and they can fight well (or at least ,they can keep a fight going longer than foreign opponents) - that is not the same thing.
After a few weeks of easy fighting they have achieved more than Russia did in a decade and USA/NATO did in two decades. Controlling and co-ordinating their forces across a far ranging battlefield suggests a level of sophistication way above the usual image of half a dozen guys with AK's in a Hilux0 -
From what I have read Pakistan's ISI are the main funder, though I'm sure there are others.TheBigBean said:
That's the most interesting bit of it. Who is funding and supplying them? It was always the case that squeezing this would have been more effective. For example, back in 2001, Iran used to make around 80% of the world's drug busts (by volume) and they did this without any support. A bit of money there and on other drug routes may have paid dividends.rjsterry said:
They clearly are pretty sophisticated. You don't take over a country in a couple of days with a disorganised mob. Assuming that Biden wasn't lying through his teeth 5 weeks ago, the Western intelligence services have some big questions to answer.rick_chasey said:Generally, and this isn't relevant to the Tory party but since i'm on the topic, it's a pretty humiliating defeat - NATO went in mainly to stop terrorism (apparently) and it has lost to a bunch of extremists who I don't think anyone would describe as having any good level of sophistication - rather just an unending stubbornness.
I guess we should expect to see more terrorism again in the future.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Even 3 or 4 days ago, the US were saying it would take a month for Kabul to be taken, in the end it took about 2 days.
The US have either been lying or kidding themselves for years over how successful they've been in building an effective Afghanistani defence force.0 -
Ultimately I don't agree that great success requires or is an example of sophistication. I don't think successfully fought the world's super power for two decades and then have over run their internal enemies with the minimum of fuss as you put it, is any indication of sophistication or otherwise.surrey_commuter said:
you need a sophisticated command structure to be organised. They have successfully fought the world's super power for two decades and then have over run their internal enemies with the minimum of fuss. They are not a drugged up rag tag army.rick_chasey said:I think we have different ideas of sophistication vs organisation.
Maybe we are just disagreeing over semantics. I think they have 20 years of experience of fighting to learn how to wage war properly.
To the point above about the US overstating Afgan state army capability - that seems much more likely.
US were plenty not sophisticated in the way they fought too, fwiw, and I think that really defeated them.0 -
The reality is that despite the money spent and the theoretical size (300,000), it doesn't exist.Jezyboy said:
It would seem the Afgan army offered little resistance?surrey_commuter said:
I think you are underestimating what they have done.rick_chasey said:
They are not technologically very sophisticated, nor is their society particularly sophisticated. Chopping off the hands of thieves, stoning women etc, that isn't my idea of sophistication.rjsterry said:
They clearly are pretty sophisticated. You don't take over a country in a couple of days with a disorganised mob. Assuming that Biden wasn't lying through his teeth 5 weeks ago, the Western intelligence services have some big questions to answer.rick_chasey said:Generally, and this isn't relevant to the Tory party but since i'm on the topic, it's a pretty humiliating defeat - NATO went in mainly to stop terrorism (apparently) and it has lost to a bunch of extremists who I don't think anyone would describe as having any good level of sophistication - rather just an unending stubbornness.
I guess we should expect to see more terrorism again in the future.
They are clearly organised and they can fight well (or at least ,they can keep a fight going longer than foreign opponents) - that is not the same thing.
After a few weeks of easy fighting they have achieved more than Russia did in a decade and USA/NATO did in two decades. Controlling and co-ordinating their forces across a far ranging battlefield suggests a level of sophistication way above the usual image of half a dozen guys with AK's in a Hilux0
