LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!

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  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rick_chasey said:

    As per the Brexit advice you gave me SC, look at how the Tory supporters on this forum react to the realistic charges of stone cold corruption in the Tory party.

    No sh!ts given.

    Fair
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,291
    rick_chasey said:

    As per the Brexit advice you gave me SC, look at how the Tory supporters on this forum react to the realistic charges of stone cold corruption in the Tory party.

    No sh!ts given.

    Quiet, isn't it?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660


    Here you go SC.

    Govt has landed on its response.

    It’s a conspiracy of labour supporting civil servant moles.
    _
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,931
    rick_chasey said:



    Here you go SC.

    Govt has landed on its response.

    It’s a conspiracy of labour supporting civil servant moles.

    All it's missing is a reference to the Deep State, but otherwise it's pure Trumpism: ignore the wrongdoing while going after the whistleblowers.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,893
    briantrumpet said:

    rick_chasey said:



    Here you go SC.

    Govt has landed on its response.

    It’s a conspiracy of labour supporting civil servant moles.

    All it's missing is a reference to the Deep State, but otherwise it's pure Trumpism: ignore the wrongdoing while going after the whistleblowers.
    Someone should tell Sir Bernard Jenkin, as he's all over the radio saying that it's a real problem, especially with former Red Wall voters and Johnson needs to be seen to be tightening up the rules.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,291
    It's easy to tighten up the rules all you like, if you then ignore them.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,299
    kingstongraham said:

    It's easy to tighten up the rules all you like, if you then ignore them.

    Ignore them in a specific and limited way of course; our gang - do what we want, your lot - oh no no no, unacceptable.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,893
    kingstongraham said:

    It's easy to tighten up the rules all you like, if you then ignore them.

    Isn't the point that no rules have actually been broken by Cameron or Crothers. Nobody is seriously suggesting that businesses and other organisations shouldn't seek to lobby government, nor that they shouldn't employ former ministers, who at the very least can advise on how government works and the best way to get their message to the right people. Equally, there are strong arguments for governments to bring in expertise from different sectors where they don't have the that in house. The issue is just the transparency and to what extent normal procedures should have been waived due to the Covid emergency.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,291
    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    It's easy to tighten up the rules all you like, if you then ignore them.

    Isn't the point that no rules have actually been broken by Cameron or Crothers. Nobody is seriously suggesting that businesses and other organisations shouldn't seek to lobby government, nor that they shouldn't employ former ministers, who at the very least can advise on how government works and the best way to get their message to the right people. Equally, there are strong arguments for governments to bring in expertise from different sectors where they don't have the that in house. The issue is just the transparency and to what extent normal procedures should have been waived due to the Covid emergency.
    The history with Johnson and Patel doesn't inspire confidence.
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 17,496
    rick_chasey said:

    As per the Brexit advice you gave me SC, look at how the Tory supporters on this forum react to the realistic charges of stone cold corruption in the Tory party.

    No sh!ts given.

    i'm puzzled why this is seen as 'news'

    uk politics has been corrupt since day one, but it's been more blatant than ever in recent years, the deliberate and increasing politicization of the civil service spreads the rot ever wider

    the electoral system ensures there's no real downside
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,893
    kingstongraham said:

    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    It's easy to tighten up the rules all you like, if you then ignore them.

    Isn't the point that no rules have actually been broken by Cameron or Crothers. Nobody is seriously suggesting that businesses and other organisations shouldn't seek to lobby government, nor that they shouldn't employ former ministers, who at the very least can advise on how government works and the best way to get their message to the right people. Equally, there are strong arguments for governments to bring in expertise from different sectors where they don't have the that in house. The issue is just the transparency and to what extent normal procedures should have been waived due to the Covid emergency.
    The history with Johnson and Patel doesn't inspire confidence.
    I think that's why Jenkin is making a fuss about it.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    sungod said:

    rick_chasey said:

    As per the Brexit advice you gave me SC, look at how the Tory supporters on this forum react to the realistic charges of stone cold corruption in the Tory party.

    No sh!ts given.

    i'm puzzled why this is seen as 'news'

    uk politics has been corrupt since day one, but it's been more blatant than ever in recent years, the deliberate and increasing politicization of the civil service spreads the rot ever wider

    the electoral system ensures there's no real downside
    I think it’s important to take all specific instances of corruption incredibly seriously if you want to maintain any modicum of credibility.

    Saying that it’s always been like that is just lowering standards.
    _
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 17,496
    rick_chasey said:

    sungod said:

    rick_chasey said:

    As per the Brexit advice you gave me SC, look at how the Tory supporters on this forum react to the realistic charges of stone cold corruption in the Tory party.

    No sh!ts given.

    i'm puzzled why this is seen as 'news'

    uk politics has been corrupt since day one, but it's been more blatant than ever in recent years, the deliberate and increasing politicization of the civil service spreads the rot ever wider

    the electoral system ensures there's no real downside
    I think it’s important to take all specific instances of corruption incredibly seriously if you want to maintain any modicum of credibility.

    Saying that it’s always been like that is just lowering standards.
    :smiley:
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,291
    The Dyson/Johnson texts seem like a bit of a confected issue. Much as I think they are both twats, unless there's more to it, I think it's just a very rich Tory donor having the PM's phone number and trying to get some clarity, and the PM telling him what he needed to hear in an emergency.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    kingstongraham said:

    The Dyson/Johnson texts seem like a bit of a confected issue. Much as I think they are both twats, unless there's more to it, I think it's just a very rich Tory donor having the PM's phone number and trying to get some clarity, and the PM telling him what he needed to hear in an emergency.

    Yes agreed.

    Though it is reflective of the broader problems with lobbying in the UK.
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,079
    kingstongraham said:

    The Dyson/Johnson texts seem like a bit of a confected issue. Much as I think they are both twats, unless there's more to it, I think it's just a very rich Tory donor having the PM's phone number and trying to get some clarity, and the PM telling him what he needed to hear in an emergency.

    Isn't it a classic example of why the public has become a bit blasé about some of these matters. Journalists scream on Twitter and the like so frequently that the public treat it as crying wolf. Someone volunteers in a crisis to help out and doesn't want to be taxed on other income for their assistance.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,893
    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The Dyson/Johnson texts seem like a bit of a confected issue. Much as I think they are both twats, unless there's more to it, I think it's just a very rich Tory donor having the PM's phone number and trying to get some clarity, and the PM telling him what he needed to hear in an emergency.

    Isn't it a classic example of why the public has become a bit blasé about some of these matters. Journalists scream on Twitter and the like so frequently that the public treat it as crying wolf. Someone volunteers in a crisis to help out and doesn't want to be taxed on other income for their assistance.
    If you ask for tax breaks in return for helping out that isn't really volunteering, but yes, there's an element of that.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,079
    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The Dyson/Johnson texts seem like a bit of a confected issue. Much as I think they are both twats, unless there's more to it, I think it's just a very rich Tory donor having the PM's phone number and trying to get some clarity, and the PM telling him what he needed to hear in an emergency.

    Isn't it a classic example of why the public has become a bit blasé about some of these matters. Journalists scream on Twitter and the like so frequently that the public treat it as crying wolf. Someone volunteers in a crisis to help out and doesn't want to be taxed on other income for their assistance.
    If you ask for tax breaks in return for helping out that isn't really volunteering, but yes, there's an element of that.
    I have done no reading into it, but I thought the issue was simply that time in the UK may have made some people tax resident in the UK, and that this wasn't particularly fair if they were only there to help out in a national crisis.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,291
    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The Dyson/Johnson texts seem like a bit of a confected issue. Much as I think they are both twats, unless there's more to it, I think it's just a very rich Tory donor having the PM's phone number and trying to get some clarity, and the PM telling him what he needed to hear in an emergency.

    Isn't it a classic example of why the public has become a bit blasé about some of these matters. Journalists scream on Twitter and the like so frequently that the public treat it as crying wolf. Someone volunteers in a crisis to help out and doesn't want to be taxed on other income for their assistance.
    If you ask for tax breaks in return for helping out that isn't really volunteering, but yes, there's an element of that.
    I have done no reading into it, but I thought the issue was simply that time in the UK may have made some people tax resident in the UK, and that this wasn't particularly fair if they were only there to help out in a national crisis.
    It was this - only for people working on the emergency, and then didn't need it anyway.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,893
    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The Dyson/Johnson texts seem like a bit of a confected issue. Much as I think they are both twats, unless there's more to it, I think it's just a very rich Tory donor having the PM's phone number and trying to get some clarity, and the PM telling him what he needed to hear in an emergency.

    Isn't it a classic example of why the public has become a bit blasé about some of these matters. Journalists scream on Twitter and the like so frequently that the public treat it as crying wolf. Someone volunteers in a crisis to help out and doesn't want to be taxed on other income for their assistance.
    If you ask for tax breaks in return for helping out that isn't really volunteering, but yes, there's an element of that.
    I have done no reading into it, but I thought the issue was simply that time in the UK may have made some people tax resident in the UK, and that this wasn't particularly fair if they were only there to help out in a national crisis.
    Quite possibly. I'm fairly cynical about the whole ventilator episode. Even when we finally kitted out all those Nightingale beds there were no staff to operate them.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,674
    I feel like Boris could have pointed out that he already had experts in quickly solving high level internal fluid problems with the F1 teams, and experts in solving internal fluid problems in highly regulated industries with Rolls-Royce.

    If he needed hoover expertise he could have gone to Henry or that nice Gtech man.

    Dyson could also spend quite a long time in the UK without being tax resident, and I would presume that after an initial flurry of activity he could, if necessary, do the role from abroad.

    I do think if your first thought on seeing your home country in crisis is, I must help, but also not pay any tax, your heart isn't quite in the right place.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The Dyson/Johnson texts seem like a bit of a confected issue. Much as I think they are both twats, unless there's more to it, I think it's just a very rich Tory donor having the PM's phone number and trying to get some clarity, and the PM telling him what he needed to hear in an emergency.

    Isn't it a classic example of why the public has become a bit blasé about some of these matters. Journalists scream on Twitter and the like so frequently that the public treat it as crying wolf. Someone volunteers in a crisis to help out and doesn't want to be taxed on other income for their assistance.
    If you ask for tax breaks in return for helping out that isn't really volunteering, but yes, there's an element of that.
    I have done no reading into it, but I thought the issue was simply that time in the UK may have made some people tax resident in the UK, and that this wasn't particularly fair if they were only there to help out in a national crisis.
    Quite possibly. I'm fairly cynical about the whole ventilator episode. Even when we finally kitted out all those Nightingale beds there were no staff to operate them.
    A tradesman who is married to my wife's friend has made *an absolute fortune* assembling and disassembling these hospitals. Said it was mad as they hadn't ever been used.
    _
  • david37
    david37 Posts: 1,313
    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The Dyson/Johnson texts seem like a bit of a confected issue. Much as I think they are both twats, unless there's more to it, I think it's just a very rich Tory donor having the PM's phone number and trying to get some clarity, and the PM telling him what he needed to hear in an emergency.

    Isn't it a classic example of why the public has become a bit blasé about some of these matters. Journalists scream on Twitter and the like so frequently that the public treat it as crying wolf. Someone volunteers in a crisis to help out and doesn't want to be taxed on other income for their assistance.
    If you ask for tax breaks in return for helping out that isn't really volunteering, but yes, there's an element of that.
    they werent asking for tax breaks just that they werent penalised for helping since that help would have put them in a worse position. i.e. they would be taxed because they helped.

    seems fair enough

  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,291
    Jezyboy said:

    I feel like Boris could have pointed out that he already had experts in quickly solving high level internal fluid problems with the F1 teams, and experts in solving internal fluid problems in highly regulated industries with Rolls-Royce.

    If he needed hoover expertise he could have gone to Henry or that nice Gtech man.

    Dyson could also spend quite a long time in the UK without being tax resident, and I would presume that after an initial flurry of activity he could, if necessary, do the role from abroad.

    I do think if your first thought on seeing your home country in crisis is, I must help, but also not pay any tax, your heart isn't quite in the right place.

    It wasn't their home country. They're a Singaporean company.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    "I'll help the country in a dubiously useful way but it'll be really good publicity, but we won't help it by paying tax"

    Got it.
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,079
    rick_chasey said:

    "I'll help the country in a dubiously useful way but it'll be really good publicity, but we won't help it by paying tax"

    Got it.

    You don't understand it.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,291
    rick_chasey said:

    "I'll help the country in a dubiously useful way but it'll be really good publicity, but we won't help it by paying tax"

    Got it.

    Well obviously, there's a reason why they're a Singaporean company.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,893
    david37 said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The Dyson/Johnson texts seem like a bit of a confected issue. Much as I think they are both twats, unless there's more to it, I think it's just a very rich Tory donor having the PM's phone number and trying to get some clarity, and the PM telling him what he needed to hear in an emergency.

    Isn't it a classic example of why the public has become a bit blasé about some of these matters. Journalists scream on Twitter and the like so frequently that the public treat it as crying wolf. Someone volunteers in a crisis to help out and doesn't want to be taxed on other income for their assistance.
    If you ask for tax breaks in return for helping out that isn't really volunteering, but yes, there's an element of that.
    they werent asking for tax breaks just that they werent penalised for helping since that help would have put them in a worse position. i.e. they would be taxed because they helped.

    seems fair enough

    Fair enough indeed. Most would call their tax advisor rather than the PM, but whatever. All slightly academic as he never did anything in the end.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,674
    kingstongraham said:

    Jezyboy said:

    I feel like Boris could have pointed out that he already had experts in quickly solving high level internal fluid problems with the F1 teams, and experts in solving internal fluid problems in highly regulated industries with Rolls-Royce.

    If he needed hoover expertise he could have gone to Henry or that nice Gtech man.

    Dyson could also spend quite a long time in the UK without being tax resident, and I would presume that after an initial flurry of activity he could, if necessary, do the role from abroad.

    I do think if your first thought on seeing your home country in crisis is, I must help, but also not pay any tax, your heart isn't quite in the right place.

    It wasn't their home country. They're a Singaporean company.
    It's James Dyson's home country. Presumably that's why he tried to help out here and not somewhere else.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    "I'll help the country in a dubiously useful way but it'll be really good publicity, but we won't help it by paying tax"

    Got it.

    You don't understand it.
    I totally understand it. He’s a tax exile but wants to help without getting a big tax smack.
    _

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