I just don't get it!

morstar

Pinno wrote:

Woah, wait a minute...

Dulux Weathershield is a water based paint and I paint the wet dash exterior of my house in it. 2 coats. It's excellent. It will last 7+ years. despite being on the West coast of Scotland. I have never seen the slightest indication of residue - it does not 'wash off'. There is no alternative to the wet dash except a dry dash.
That means re-rendering the exterior again. More cement = more CO2. So that would be madness.
You cannot possibly paint the rendered exterior of a house with an oil based paint.
Paint on cement, brick, concrete lintels, sills, doesn't last nearly as long as Sandtex or Weathershield. It peels and cracks. Water based paints, by the time they have faded and ready for re-coating, are probably inert long before say the peeled oil based paint has broken down in the soil.

Re.: Water based paint on cars. On mass production vehicles

Most cars are baked at 70 degrees. Oil based paints were prohibited in mass production at the end of 1991 in the EU.

However, you could calculate the environmental effect (energy consumption) of baking at a higher temperature for a shorter period of time:

"There is a standard basic rule in the automotive industry that for every 15 degrees above 70 degrees, the coating will cure about twice as fast. This rule works the other way around as well; for every 15 degrees below 70 degrees, the coating will take about twice as long to cure."

Your local body repair shop can use what's called a buffer coat on top of a modern Acrylic paint and then paint with a 'traditional' substance like Cellulose but that practice is rare and would make no sense whatsoever. This was common in the early to late 90's because most local body repair shops universally had ovens that only heated to a maximum of 50 degrees, which is too cool to activate the lacquer coat, 1k or 2k or otherwise. Add the traditionalists refusing to move to the new type of paint and many will have noticed a huge reduction in body repair outlets and, more significantly, the cost of re-spraying has become much more expensive because primarily, the hotter ovens were expensive and the whole paint process using acrylic or similar, is far more of a technical challenge.
Without the lacquer coat, your car paint using acrylic would be quite dull or, car manufacturers would have to bake the paint at a much higher temperature and then deploy some mechanical means of buffing. t would also be highly susceptible to UVA and UVB, the elements and wouldn't last long.

"Clear coats are based differently today since there are so many new products available, but the product works in a similar way. If a clear coat would cure in 3 hours at 70 degrees, it would be possible to cure it in 15 minutes at 140 degrees."

https://globalfinishing.com/2012/04/20/ ... cal-guide/

The notion of water based paints was raised in the EU, thanks partly to a near Greenpeace Martyr highlighting the dumping of chemicals in the north sea, in the mid eighties. This practise was rife. For example:

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1980/10/13 ... 340257600/
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... -north-sea

A calculation was made to the effect that every single car produced created 45 gallons of chemicals, of which the majority was the effluent derived from the paint process.
That was the point the EU finally decided that oil based paint could no longer be used on mass produced vehicles after 1991.

Some interesting environmental points regarding top coats (clear lacquer), before metering any criticism:

Waterborne clear coat was first introduced in the automotive industry in 1990 and is based on
a polyester acrylate cross-linked with isocyanate and melamine resins. Powder clearcoats are becoming
more prevalent in the automobile industry because of their environmental benefits, i.e., no emission of
VOCs during application [44]. Besides this, powder clearcoats have other advantages, including:

. Direct recycling—overspray powder can be collected and be reused in the original coating process;
. No wastewater or paint sludge produced during their application;
. No need to use organic solvents for cleaning of application equipment or spray booth;
. Reduction of the total energy used during application because the air supplied to the spray booth
can be recycled;
. No VOCs produced and very low toxic aspects;

From:

Evolution of the Automotive Body Coating
Process—A Review

[url=fhttps://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=2ahUKEwiTx8fU35HhAhWLxoUKHX1tDk4QFjAJegQIBRAC&url=https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6412/6/2/24/pdf&usg=AOvVaw3nZe-arVYkXoDkoAPCji3a]fhttps://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct= ... DkoAPCji3a[/url]

So here endeth the preconceptions and bollox.

Nobody likes a smartarse!

Not in Brexit Britain anyhow.

pinno

morstar wrote:

Nobody likes a smartarse!

I would never win a popularity contest but sometimes, you have to present evidence in the face of preconception.

1 post of fact and 33146 posts of bollox me.

cowsham

Pinno wrote:

Woah, wait a minute...

Dulux Weathershield is a water based paint and I paint the wet dash exterior of my house in it. 2 coats. It's excellent. It will last 7+ years. despite being on the West coast of Scotland. I have never seen the slightest indication of residue - it does not 'wash off'. There is no alternative to the wet dash except a dry dash.
That means re-rendering the exterior again. More cement = more CO2. So that would be madness.
You cannot possibly paint the rendered exterior of a house with an oil based paint.
Paint on cement, brick, concrete lintels, sills, doesn't last nearly as long as Sandtex or Weathershield. It peels and cracks. Water based paints, by the time they have faded and ready for re-coating, are probably inert long before say the peeled oil based paint has broken down in the soil.

Re.: Water based paint on cars. On mass production vehicles

Most cars are baked at 70 degrees. Oil based paints were prohibited in mass production at the end of 1991 in the EU.

However, you could calculate the environmental effect (energy consumption) of baking at a higher temperature for a shorter period of time:

"There is a standard basic rule in the automotive industry that for every 15 degrees above 70 degrees, the coating will cure about twice as fast. This rule works the other way around as well; for every 15 degrees below 70 degrees, the coating will take about twice as long to cure."

Your local body repair shop can use what's called a buffer coat on top of a modern Acrylic paint and then paint with a 'traditional' substance like Cellulose but that practice is rare and would make no sense whatsoever. This was common in the early to late 90's because most local body repair shops universally had ovens that only heated to a maximum of 50 degrees, which is too cool to activate the lacquer coat, 1k or 2k or otherwise. Add the traditionalists refusing to move to the new type of paint and many will have noticed a huge reduction in body repair outlets and, more significantly, the cost of re-spraying has become much more expensive because primarily, the hotter ovens were expensive and the whole paint process using acrylic or similar, is far more of a technical challenge.
Without the lacquer coat, your car paint using acrylic would be quite dull or, car manufacturers would have to bake the paint at a much higher temperature and then deploy some mechanical means of buffing. t would also be highly susceptible to UVA and UVB, the elements and wouldn't last long.

"Clear coats are based differently today since there are so many new products available, but the product works in a similar way. If a clear coat would cure in 3 hours at 70 degrees, it would be possible to cure it in 15 minutes at 140 degrees."

https://globalfinishing.com/2012/04/20/ ... cal-guide/

The notion of water based paints was raised in the EU, thanks partly to a near Greenpeace Martyr highlighting the dumping of chemicals in the north sea, in the mid eighties. This practise was rife. For example:

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1980/10/13 ... 340257600/
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... -north-sea

A calculation was made to the effect that every single car produced created 45 gallons of chemicals, of which the majority was the effluent derived from the paint process.
That was the point the EU finally decided that oil based paint could no longer be used on mass produced vehicles after 1991.

Some interesting environmental points regarding top coats (clear lacquer), before metering any criticism:

Waterborne clear coat was first introduced in the automotive industry in 1990 and is based on
a polyester acrylate cross-linked with isocyanate and melamine resins. Powder clearcoats are becoming
more prevalent in the automobile industry because of their environmental benefits, i.e., no emission of
VOCs during application [44]. Besides this, powder clearcoats have other advantages, including:

. Direct recycling—overspray powder can be collected and be reused in the original coating process;
. No wastewater or paint sludge produced during their application;
. No need to use organic solvents for cleaning of application equipment or spray booth;
. Reduction of the total energy used during application because the air supplied to the spray booth
can be recycled;
. No VOCs produced and very low toxic aspects;

From:

Evolution of the Automotive Body Coating
Process—A Review

[url=fhttps://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=2ahUKEwiTx8fU35HhAhWLxoUKHX1tDk4QFjAJegQIBRAC&url=https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6412/6/2/24/pdf&usg=AOvVaw3nZe-arVYkXoDkoAPCji3a]fhttps://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct= ... DkoAPCji3a[/url]

So here endeth the preconceptions and bollox.

What I said only cut and pasted from Wikipedia or some knowall wanky site.

Lagrange

OK Syria. Loads of years ago Syria was slagged for saying that they were attacking terrorists because the West said that it was ethnic cleasning of non- Alawhite tribes. Going on from that the Syrian regime was slagged for dropping barrel bombs on civilians, notably non- alawhite tribes.

Now Syria is praised for ridding the world of enemies - of ISIS. WTF?

pinno

Lagrange wrote:

Now Syria is praised for ridding the world of enemies - of ISIS. WTF?

By whom?

The Kurds have been militarily assisted by the US (and the UK).

https://www.vox.com/world/2019/3/23/182 ... -us-forces

Wayne Plunger

Cowsham wrote:

Water based "outdoor" paint

I agree and I will raise you any water based paint, indoor or outdoor.

pinno

Wayne Plunger wrote:

Cowsham wrote:

Water based "outdoor" paint

I agree and I will raise you any water based paint, indoor or outdoor.

So you'll come and gloss the whole of the outside of my house will you? Or...
Gloss the interior walls instead of using emulsion?

Right.

rick_chasey

People who moan about watching bike races being hugely boring and complaining it's a waste of time. Especially when the parcours means you have a pretty good idea that it's gonna be no racing for quite a while.

Why watch? I find golf and cricket interminably awful but I'm not gonna sit and watch it, let alone complain about it.

pinno

Rick Chasey wrote:

People who moan about watching bike races being hugely boring and complaining it's a waste of time. Especially when the parcours means you have a pretty good idea that it's gonna be no racing for quite a while.

Why watch? I find golf and cricket interminably awful but I'm not gonna sit and watch it, let alone complain about it.

M-SR? It is always a grind, a procession. The Cipressa rarely has an impact. The streets are narrow at the point where the selection is a little random, a little luck. The Italians are too stubborn to alter their beloved Prima Vera.
But... it's the opening classic and there's lots of lovely scenery.

Meanwhile, GVA and co are singing quietly "Oh lord, we missed again". What's not to like?

cowsham

Pinno wrote:

Wayne Plunger wrote:

Cowsham wrote:

Water based "outdoor" paint

I agree and I will raise you any water based paint, indoor or outdoor.

So you'll come and gloss the whole of the outside of my house will you? Or...
Gloss the interior walls instead of using emulsion?

Right.

Masonry paint is a different thing -- it's latex based stuff and it's on a more stable surface -- wonderful stuff for the job. Don't thin it to make it easier to apply just slap it on neat.

pinno

Who said to 'thin' it?!
I'd rather 'thick' it. After all, I live in windy wet Jockland.

Eggshell - that's good stuff too.

Wayne Plunger

Pinno wrote:

Wayne Plunger wrote:

Cowsham wrote:

Water based "outdoor" paint

I agree and I will raise you any water based paint, indoor or outdoor.

So you'll come and gloss the whole of the outside of my house will you? Or...
Gloss the interior walls instead of using emulsion?

Right.

Obviously I was talking gloss paints not emulsions, but hey who doesn't like a pedant?

cowsham

Pinno wrote:

Who said to 'thin' it?!
I'd rather 'thick' it. After all, I live in windy wet Jockland.

Eggshell - that's good stuff too.

Nothing beats Ballycastle dash. Lasts a lifetime.

pinno

Wayne Plunger wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Wayne Plunger wrote:

Cowsham wrote:

Water based "outdoor" paint

I agree and I will raise you any water based paint, indoor or outdoor.

So you'll come and gloss the whole of the outside of my house will you? Or...
Gloss the interior walls instead of using emulsion?

Right.

Obviously I was talking gloss paints not emulsions, but hey who doesn't like a pedant?

To that I agree Gloss paint for woodwork, facias, doors etc. To be fair, the exterior window apertures are painted with Dulux. With the right prep, undercoat, it lasts very well and maintains it's colour.

Wayne Plunger

Pinno wrote:

Wayne Plunger wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Wayne Plunger wrote:

Cowsham wrote:

Water based "outdoor" paint

I agree and I will raise you any water based paint, indoor or outdoor.

So you'll come and gloss the whole of the outside of my house will you? Or...
Gloss the interior walls instead of using emulsion?

Right.

Obviously I was talking gloss paints not emulsions, but hey who doesn't like a pedant?

To that I agree Gloss paint for woodwork, facias, doors etc. To be fair, the exterior window apertures are painted with Dulux. With the right prep, undercoat, it lasts very well and maintains it's colour.

Let's not start agreeing with each other, it will remove all the fun of the board!

keef66

Just had my first experience of a water based gloss paint. Dulux Trade stuff. Trying it because the oil based stuff seems to go yellow a lot quicker than it used to, and they claim the water based version resists this.

Internal cheapo panelled doors, taken off and laid flat for prep and painting. Existing gloss finish rubbed down to provide a key, and the whole thing wiped down with sugar soap, rinsed and dried.

The stuff doesn't seem to want to cover however generously the brush is loaded. Better result with the roller on the flat bits. On the plus side it's quick drying, so you can be doing the absolutely essential second coat after not very long. Downside is you need twice as much paint. The final finish is OK though.

rjsterry

keef66 wrote:

Just had my first experience of a water based gloss paint. Dulux Trade stuff. Trying it because the oil based stuff seems to go yellow a lot quicker than it used to, and they claim the water based version resists this.

Internal cheapo panelled doors, taken off and laid flat for prep and painting. Existing gloss finish rubbed down to provide a key, and the whole thing wiped down with sugar soap, rinsed and dried.

The stuff doesn't seem to want to cover however generously the brush is loaded. Better result with the roller on the flat bits. On the plus side it's quick drying, so you can be doing the absolutely essential second coat after not very long. Downside is you need twice as much paint. The final finish is OK though.

It's the alkyd resins in oil based gloss that yellow when not exposed to UV. Water based gloss uses different resins, which don't yellow in this way.

Water based gloss is different for sure, with pros and cons against oil-based, for example water based takes much longer to cure than alkyd gloss, despite the quick drying time, so you need to wait longer before rubbing down. But it doesn't wash off unless you've not prepared properly.

Some discussion here.

https://decoratingadvice.co.uk/paint/oi ... ch-is-best

amrushton

People who think zwift is like bike racing and now think it should be an Olympic event. A Gold Medal in Donkey Kong!!!

awavey

amrushton wrote:

People who think zwift is like bike racing and now think it should be an Olympic event. A Gold Medal in Donkey Kong!!!

totally agree, I dont get the hoopla about it at all other than as a training tool (which I do get) but its not bike racing for sure

and are Zwift spending lots of money to get good PR in the media about it all because they are worried Peloton might sneak in and steal their customers or something ?

shirley_basso

Why not?

Peloton could sneak in and steal their customers.

e-sports are becoming more mainstream. Get used to it.

Surfing and dancing are olympic sports and squash isn't. Olympics follows the money, not the 3 principles (Faster, higher, stronger)

rick_chasey

Shirley Basso wrote:

Why not?

Peloton could sneak in and steal their customers.

e-sports are becoming more mainstream. Get used to it.

Surfing and dancing are olympic sports and squash isn't. Olympics follows the money, not the 3 principles (Faster, higher, stronger)

I think there are enough public schoolboy sports in the Olympics as it is without introducing squash, no?

I will now add some salt to my chip on my shoulder.

robert88

Rick Chasey wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Why not?

Peloton could sneak in and steal their customers.

e-sports are becoming more mainstream. Get used to it.

Surfing and dancing are olympic sports and squash isn't. Olympics follows the money, not the 3 principles (Faster, higher, stronger)

I think there are enough public schoolboy sports in the Olympics as it is without introducing squash, no?

I will now add some salt to my chip on my shoulder.

Best squash player I ever played (it was more of a lesson) was a tough Glaswegian of Asian parentage. He'd also been an international level table-tennis player.

cougie

I've no problems with Zwift racing but please not at the Olympics. I think that needs to be pruned as it's way too big.

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Why not?

Peloton could sneak in and steal their customers.

e-sports are becoming more mainstream. Get used to it.

Surfing and dancing are olympic sports and squash isn't. Olympics follows the money, not the 3 principles (Faster, higher, stronger)

I think there are enough public schoolboy sports in the Olympics as it is without introducing squash, no?

I will now add some salt to my chip on my shoulder.

I agree with you but squash is the wrong example

rick_chasey

Really?

Seems to be exclusively played by pinky-ring wearing middle aged men from what I can see.

shirley_basso

Probably need to widen your viewpoint. I know you have your political outlook but the 2 most recent comments are pretty pathetic.

You could say the same about cycling.

Ben6899

Rick Chasey wrote:

Really?

Seems to be exclusively played by pinky-ring wearing middle aged men from what I can see.

In the last 15 years, three of the World #1 have been English. Two of those from - and coached (by the same bloke) in - Pontefract. I know the club where that coaching happened, and the setup is very much accessible to all.

cougie

Loads of people can play squash - most leisure centres offer it. It's a bit odd for a cyclist to claim that squash is elitist ? Bloke I know is a club cyclist and coaches squash. Nice bloke - no pinky ring either.

twotoebenny

Ben6899 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Really?

Seems to be exclusively played by pinky-ring wearing middle aged men from what I can see.

In the last 15 years, three of the World #1 have been English. Two of those from - and coached (by the same bloke) in - Pontefract. I know the club where that coaching happened, and the setup is very much accessible to all.

I'm going to guess that at least one of those was in fact Scottish

Ben6899

TwoToeBenny wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Really?

Seems to be exclusively played by pinky-ring wearing middle aged men from what I can see.

In the last 15 years, three of the World #1 have been English. Two of those from - and coached (by the same bloke) in - Pontefract. I know the club where that coaching happened, and the setup is very much accessible to all.

I'm going to guess that at least one of those was in fact Scottish

No. All three of the English lads are English. There is a Scottish lad in there though. A couple of Frenchmen and then it's dominated by Egyptians. That's looking as far as 2004.

;-)