Chain difference?

13

Comments

  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Imposter wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    The apparent lack of understanding of what induces chain failure / wear / stretch in this bit doesn’t ‘add value’ to this thread at all IMHO.

    Ironic post of the day.. :lol:
    :):)
  • sniper68
    sniper68 Posts: 2,910
    Imposter wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    The apparent lack of understanding of what induces chain failure / wear / stretch in this bit doesn’t ‘add value’ to this thread at all IMHO.
    Ironic post of the day.. :lol:
    I think he should write a book,if he hasn't already.I'd read it...and I haven't read a book in years!
    Lynskey R480

  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    Ericshun wrote:
    The apparent lack of understanding of what induces chain failure / wear / stretch in this bit doesn’t ‘add value’ to this thread at all IMHO.

    I'm not sure what your rudeness adds either, but there you go. I mentioned that Sram chains seem to have less lateral strength (specifically bending resistance) since I keep bending them (and not other chains in similar setups). I also mentioned that they wear out (specifically by stretching) more quickly than Campagnolo. I don't believe I suggested that the two issues are correlated in any way. Mind you, "stretch" can only be the result of wear to the pivot bushings reducing their overall diameter, longitudinal elastic deformation of the side plates or, I suppose, ovalisation of the link pin holes - and the weaker the side plates, the more susceptible I expect they would be to deformation in any direction.
    964Cup wrote:
    They are directional, noisy chains in an otherwise identical system could point to the chain being installed incorrectly (IMHO).

    Not noticeably humble, but you may comfort yourself with the knowledge that I know how to install a chain and that incorrect installation was not a contributory factor.
  • lesfirth
    lesfirth Posts: 1,382
    Ericshun wrote:
    :evil:
    lesfirth wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    lesfirth wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.

    So what you are saying is that all Shimano chains are made to the same specification and that some turn out better than others. The better ones are sold as Dura ace and the rubbish are sold as 105. If that is the case, do they replace all the hollow pins with solid ones when they down grade those chains to 105 or do they then put hollow pins in the good chains to sell them as Dura ace? Or do you have a degree in talking boll0cks?

    28 years in manufacturing of various stuff, tells me how it works. Whether or not you like it, bothers me not. They work on ‘indented specs’ a wide ‘cover all spec’ with relatively broad pass or fail criteria, to maximise yields / profits, with incrementally tighter sub specs, for the ‘higher end’ products. The tighter the spec, the lower the yield of products meeting that spec, which makes it ‘premium’. Premium = more money charged.


    I was probably working as a qualified engineer in the aero industry before you were born. I know what you are saying but I do not think it is applicable to Shimano chain production. Without any jargon just answer a simple question.

    A 105 11 speed chain has so;id pins and a Dura Ace 11 speed chain has hollow pins, so if they all start as you say i.e., the same, when do the pins get changed?

    The chains are made to a supplied spec. Often there is a different spec used by the manufacturer, to the end user / customer, and this tends to be tighter. With something like these particular chains, a D.A. chain will be dealt with as a separate entity, because it’s significantly different enough to warrant it, and it will be subject to a different set of specs than a more generic design, which could quite happily work in a ‘dog poo’ application, and the original intended application, subject to an indented spec. It’s the best part of the reason why a D.A. Chain is more expensive than a 105 chain. It’s not a terribly difficult concept to get one’s head around ( I’d have thought ). A bit like in a salad factory. A tomato won’t be subject to the same qualification criteria as a cucumber, but there are ‘premium quality’ tomatoes, and less good tomatoes. The ones that hit the tightest spec and the ones that don’t hit that spec limit are still tomatoes and will both make soup quite nicely, but the not so good ones won’t look good enough to end up in the “finest / chosen by you / insert generic marketing crap and a fancy pack” so they end up making soup, or in the “wonky” ingredient pile. Cucumbers are completely different ( other than they are still salad ingredients), so they will never be treated with the same specs as tomatoes.

    So we are agreed that they are not "pretty much identical".

    This Milemuncher pantomime is ruining this forum. I am all for a joke and a bit of banter but the OP asked a question the serious answers to it have been swamped with childish nonsense.
    I would suggest that when someone identifies a new alias ( I am not very good at that) we all just ignore him.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    lesfirth wrote:
    I would suggest that when someone identifies a new alias ( I am not very good at that) we all just ignore him.

    Agree with the sentiment, but it can be sometimes difficult to 'ignore' him when the content he posts is invariably flat out wrong and sometimes actually dangerous.
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    Ericshun wrote:
    WeezySwiss wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    WeezySwiss wrote:

    Well it was like it was made of cheese. Probably a manufacturing fault, but still annoying

    That’s the problem with this sort of batch testing. It detects likely rogue batches, based on extrapolated results / data harvested from sample sizes dictated by overall batch size. It’s almost impossible to find an anomalous single chain, without 100 percent testing the entire batch. Unfortunately that’s also impossible because the types of test used to determine durability are destructive. If I was paying Dura Ace prices, and the chains were failing that often, I’d be making sure the retailers and manufacturers were aware of the problem.

    Quit before you dig yourself further into that hole. And I raise you a rainbow carrot.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Imposter wrote:
    lesfirth wrote:
    I would suggest that when someone identifies a new alias ( I am not very good at that) we all just ignore him.

    Agree with the sentiment, but it can be sometimes difficult to 'ignore' him when the content he posts is invariably flat out wrong and sometimes actually dangerous.

    Also not much fun in that either :)
  • Ericshun
    Ericshun Posts: 34
    Imposter wrote:
    lesfirth wrote:
    I would suggest that when someone identifies a new alias ( I am not very good at that) we all just ignore him.

    Agree with the sentiment, but it can be sometimes difficult to 'ignore' him when the content he posts is invariably flat out wrong and sometimes actually dangerous.


    “Ironic post of the day”
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Ericshun wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    lesfirth wrote:
    I would suggest that when someone identifies a new alias ( I am not very good at that) we all just ignore him.

    Agree with the sentiment, but it can be sometimes difficult to 'ignore' him when the content he posts is invariably flat out wrong and sometimes actually dangerous.


    “Ironic post of the day”

    Feel free to point out where you feel my own content corresponds with either of the above. I'll wait.. :lol:
  • Ericshun
    Ericshun Posts: 34
    darkhairedlord wrote:

    Quit before you dig yourself further into that hole. And I raise you a rainbow carrot.

    What hole, the hole made of donkeys years of experience testing various bits of engineered stuff, for a living, thus giving me a pretty good insight into how these things work you mean?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Ericshun wrote:
    darkhairedlord wrote:

    Quit before you dig yourself further into that hole. And I raise you a rainbow carrot.

    What hole, the hole made of donkeys years of experience testing various bits of engineered stuff, for a living, thus giving me a pretty good insight into how these things work you mean?

    Having 'experience' doesn't make you right. In your case, it just makes you ignorant.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    my experience is that the least able are sent to test things. the most able design them.
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    Ericshun wrote:
    darkhairedlord wrote:

    Quit before you dig yourself further into that hole. And I raise you a rainbow carrot.

    What hole, the hole made of donkeys years of experience testing various bits of engineered stuff, for a living, thus giving me a pretty good insight into how these things work you mean?
    "testing" doesn't correlate with to "insight into how these things work"
  • Ericshun
    Ericshun Posts: 34
    Webboo wrote:
    Given bumuncher is Decathlon man, I would wonder where his experience of Dura Ace chains comes from.

    https://www.decathlon.co.uk/ultra-940-c ... 90340.html
  • Ericshun
    Ericshun Posts: 34
    darkhairedlord wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    darkhairedlord wrote:

    Quit before you dig yourself further into that hole. And I raise you a rainbow carrot.

    What hole, the hole made of donkeys years of experience testing various bits of engineered stuff, for a living, thus giving me a pretty good insight into how these things work you mean?
    "testing" doesn't correlate with to "insight into how these things work"

    It does when you’re the one writing the test protocols.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Ericshun wrote:

    It does when you’re the one writing the test protocols.

    Presumably you know about the stuff you are testing (let's hope so, although I wouldn't bet on it). It doesn't follow that you have any pertinent knowledge on how Shimano makes chains. In fact, you continue to demonstrate that you are utterly clueless in this regard.
  • Brakeless
    Brakeless Posts: 865
    Ericshun wrote:
    Webboo wrote:
    Given bumuncher is Decathlon man, I would wonder where his experience of Dura Ace chains comes from.

    https://www.decathlon.co.uk/ultra-940-c ... 90340.html

    You know you don't own that model Nic.
  • cld531c
    cld531c Posts: 517
    Brakeless wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    Webboo wrote:
    Given bumuncher is Decathlon man, I would wonder where his experience of Dura Ace chains comes from.

    https://www.decathlon.co.uk/ultra-940-c ... 90340.html

    You know you don't own that model Nic.

    He doesn't need to, he has more experience than everyone and rides more than anyone else so therefore he knows everything :lol:
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    cld531c wrote:
    Brakeless wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    Webboo wrote:
    Given bumuncher is Decathlon man, I would wonder where his experience of Dura Ace chains comes from.

    https://www.decathlon.co.uk/ultra-940-c ... 90340.html

    You know you don't own that model Nic.

    He doesn't need to, he has more experience than everyone and rides more than anyone else so therefore he knows everything :lol:

    When bummuncher rides hes actually testing his chains to destruction on every incline since he loads an additional 40KG on his back.

    Thats commitment
  • big_harv
    big_harv Posts: 512
    Nick/ Eric/ Prendiville. Seriously, I am a reasonable sort of bloke. But please please fuck off.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Btw I lifted 4 x 10kg bags of salt last night. 40kg is heavy. If the bum muncher rides around with that on his back I’m not messing with him any more .

    He’s totally chuck Norris
  • Ericshun
    Ericshun Posts: 34
    edited December 2018
    Brakeless wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    Webboo wrote:
    Given bumuncher is Decathlon man, I would wonder where his experience of Dura Ace chains comes from.

    https://www.decathlon.co.uk/ultra-940-c ... 90340.html

    You know you don't own that model Nic.

    No I don't. I didn't say I did. My point was to counter the implication that Decathlon don't do bikes with D.A. kit on them.
  • Ericshun
    Ericshun Posts: 34
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    my experience is that the least able are sent to test things. the most able design them.

    And the very best design them, then write the protocols for the testing.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Ericshun wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    my experience is that the least able are sent to test things. the most able design them.

    And the very best design them, then write the protocols for the testing.

    theres a difference between a technician and an engineer.......
  • Bumo_b
    Bumo_b Posts: 211
    From my limited research and it is limited as I cant really be bothered to do any more. In the mid 80s KMC had a technical venture with Shimano. That is as far as they have gone down that route. Also, if the info on the world wide w*nk is accurate, KMC manufacture in Taiwan and China and Shimano Japan, so it seems reasonably safe to assume KMC/Shimano chains are a no no, especially as there is not one image I can find supporting this as mentioned earlier.
    I'm bored now but love the thread.
    Got the taste for popcorn now!
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    Ericshun wrote:
    Brakeless wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    Webboo wrote:
    Given bumuncher is Decathlon man, I would wonder where his experience of Dura Ace chains comes from.

    https://www.decathlon.co.uk/ultra-940-c ... 90340.html

    You know you don't own that model Nic.

    No I don't. I didn't say I did. My point was to counter the implication that Decathlon don't do bikes with D.A. kit on them.
    My point was if you don’t have Dura Ace kit on your bike why would you buy Dura Ace chains.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Does anyone know for certain that Shimano don't make chains themselves? They have some pretty sophisticated casting / forging /pressing / machining / bonding / finishing facilities for a wide range of components and metals. Why would they not also use their metalworking expertise to manufacture chains??

    But given the many references in the Izumi company history to manufacturing chains for Shimano, and the fact they are also Japanese, I'm guessing that if anyone makes chains for Shimano, it's them.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    keef66 wrote:
    Does anyone know for certain that Shimano don't make chains themselves?

    It's quite possible that they do - but if they do, they certainly seem to keep pretty quiet about it. Meanwhile, Japan is well served by a number of high quality domestic industrial chain manufacturers, like Izumi, Tsubaki, Daido/DID, RK and others, so in a sense, there's no need for them to make their own chain if they can source suitable quality components from just down the road..
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Ericshun wrote:
    Brakeless wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    Webboo wrote:
    Given bumuncher is Decathlon man, I would wonder where his experience of Dura Ace chains comes from.

    https://www.decathlon.co.uk/ultra-940-c ... 90340.html

    You know you don't own that model Nic.

    No I don't. I didn't say I did. My point was to counter the implication that Decathlon don't do bikes with D.A. kit on them.

    I think the term 'Decathlon Man' was aimed at you, rather than Decathlon. And meant to imply you're more of a cost-conscious shopper, and as such unlikely to have much first hand experience of DuraAce chains. Was that assumption correct?

    I'm a basic 9 and 10 speed chain user and I'm often looking for bargains . As long as a chain is reasonably durable, resists corrosion and shifts well, why pay more? To me chains are consumables, and spending on hollow pins, slotted side plates and fancier treatments is a waste of money.

    But to a weight weenie that 10 gram saving might seem worth it, or to those with deep pockets and a desire to own the newest and shiniest gear or to impress their peers with bling, why not?
  • Brakeless
    Brakeless Posts: 865
    Ericshun wrote:
    Brakeless wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    Webboo wrote:
    Given bumuncher is Decathlon man, I would wonder where his experience of Dura Ace chains comes from.

    https://www.decathlon.co.uk/ultra-940-c ... 90340.html

    You know you don't own that model Nic.

    No I don't. I didn't say I did. My point was to counter the implication that Decathlon don't do bikes with D.A. kit on them.

    The question was 'I wonder where his experience of Dura Ace chains comes from'

    By posting a link to that bike it looks like you are saying your experience of Dura ace chains comes from that model of bike.

    You probably have zero experience of Dura Ace components and are as usual posting total cr@p.

Categories