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Chain difference?

ben@31[email protected] Posts: 2,327
edited December 2018 in Workshop
Is there any difference between 11 speed chains apart from a few grammes and lots of £'s ?

For example is there any difference between a 11 speed Dura-Ace and an Ultegra ? What about KMC chains and which of their model is the equivalent?

Which one would you get ? Thanks
"The Prince of Wales is now the King of France" - Calton Kirby
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Posts

  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,965
    No performance or functional differences. Some of the coatings may offer improved longevity, but that's about it. The law of diminishing returns applies...
  • The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 3,288
    This is going to be good.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,965
    Shortfall wrote:
    This is going to be good.

    He can't help himself, unfortunately...
  • webboowebboo Posts: 4,965
    Ericshun wrote:
    The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.
    What’s a lower yield chain. Is it when there’s been a poor harvest in Shimano land and there wasn’t many chains that year on the chain tree.
  • Vino'sGhostVino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Mmm popcorn
  • sniper68sniper68 Posts: 2,910
    Shortfall wrote:
    This is going to be good.
    I'm hoping so.....
    Imposter wrote:
    He can't help himself, unfortunately...
    I take it this is BRs multiple account Bullshitter :wink:
    Webboo wrote:
    What’s a lower yield chain. Is it when there’s been a poor harvest in Shimano land and there wasn’t many chains that year on the chain tree.
    Brilliant,post of the week 8)
    Mmm popcorn
    Just popping some in t'microwave nah :D
  • Subscribed
  • lesfirthlesfirth Posts: 1,356
    Ericshun wrote:
    The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.

    So what you are saying is that all Shimano chains are made to the same specification and that some turn out better than others. The better ones are sold as Dura ace and the rubbish are sold as 105. If that is the case, do they replace all the hollow pins with solid ones when they down grade those chains to 105 or do they then put hollow pins in the good chains to sell them as Dura ace? Or do you have a degree in talking boll0cks?
  • Webboo wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.
    What’s a lower yield chain. Is it when there’s been a poor harvest in Shimano land and there wasn’t many chains that year on the chain tree.

    Weirdly, that’s not too far from the truth.
  • lesfirth wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.

    So what you are saying is that all Shimano chains are made to the same specification and that some turn out better than others. The better ones are sold as Dura ace and the rubbish are sold as 105. If that is the case, do they replace all the hollow pins with solid ones when they down grade those chains to 105 or do they then put hollow pins in the good chains to sell them as Dura ace? Or do you have a degree in talking boll0cks?

    28 years in manufacturing of various stuff, tells me how it works. Whether or not you like it, bothers me not. They work on ‘indented specs’ a wide ‘cover all spec’ with relatively broad pass or fail criteria, to maximise yields / profits, with incrementally tighter sub specs, for the ‘higher end’ products. The tighter the spec, the lower the yield of products meeting that spec, which makes it ‘premium’. Premium = more money charged. There are various different chain types as well, those for indexed systems, and those for hairy arsed applications, where there is no requirement for the chain to ‘climb’ a cassette ( for example). The indexed system chains are more complex to manufacture, so tend to suffer relatively lower yields. As an aside, if a chain type has something unique to it ( hollow pins in Dura Ace for example ) it becomes a P.I.T.A. from a manufacturing perspective, because it can’t be sub classified, if a batch fails ( or can it?????) so a fail ends up in a pile of scrap chains ( or do they????) which bumps the price up ( that definitely does happen ).
  • lesfirthlesfirth Posts: 1,356
    Ericshun wrote:
    lesfirth wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.

    So what you are saying is that all Shimano chains are made to the same specification and that some turn out better than others. The better ones are sold as Dura ace and the rubbish are sold as 105. If that is the case, do they replace all the hollow pins with solid ones when they down grade those chains to 105 or do they then put hollow pins in the good chains to sell them as Dura ace? Or do you have a degree in talking boll0cks?

    28 years in manufacturing of various stuff, tells me how it works. Whether or not you like it, bothers me not. They work on ‘indented specs’ a wide ‘cover all spec’ with relatively broad pass or fail criteria, to maximise yields / profits, with incrementally tighter sub specs, for the ‘higher end’ products. The tighter the spec, the lower the yield of products meeting that spec, which makes it ‘premium’. Premium = more money charged.


    I was probably working as a qualified engineer in the aero industry before you were born. I know what you are saying but I do not think it is applicable to Shimano chain production. Without any jargon just answer a simple question.

    A 105 11 speed chain has so;id pins and a Dura Ace 11 speed chain has hollow pins, so if they all start as you say i.e., the same, when do the pins get changed?
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,965
    Milemuncher/Bottomwhatever/ericshun/I've forgotten the rest of his names, there's been so many....

    All you have to remember is that he has more experience than any of us of riding, engineering, flying helicopters, martial arts, science, space, fibre optics, litigation and probably a load of other stuff that has yet to crop up on here. He simply adopts a new persona to fit whatever lies he happens to be telling at the time.
  • webboowebboo Posts: 4,965
    You forgot he’s by Royal appointment as well.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,965
    Webboo wrote:
    You forgot he’s by Royal appointment as well.

    And ridden with Chris Froome - so he must be correct at all times...
  • lesfirthlesfirth Posts: 1,356
    Oh censored . Why am I so dim ?
  • My wife has just asked what I'm laughing at.
  • gethincerigethinceri Posts: 1,333
    You are laughing at Chuck Norris.
    Beware.
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,599
    And by Chuck Norris I think you mean Spaz Wangle.
    I don't do smileys.

    There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

    London Calling on Facebook

    Parktools
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Back on topic. Kmc make Shimano chains to Shimano specifications. I use kmc or campagnolo on my bikes. Campagnolo 11 speed chain either non series or record ( chorus is not as good) last longer than kmc 11-93 or x11 SL chains.

    I have yet to try kmc DMC ceramic coated chains. I have one but yet to use it. They are too expensive.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,965
    Shimano chains are made by Izumi, not KMC..
  • Vino'sGhostVino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    More popcorn required for the kmc v Izumi face off. It’s reputation shredding stuff :)

    Why hasn’t bungle contributed yet?
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,965
    Too early for popcorn...

    http://izumichain.co.jp/history_e.html
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 3,288
    Milebottommuncherbriquetteserection. The gift that keeps on giving.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,965
    Shortfall wrote:
    Milebottommuncherbriquetteserection. The gift that keeps on giving.

    More like the gift that avoids all the threads where he is being called out...
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Izumi may make shimano chains but KMC do also. KMC dont make all shimano chains just some of them.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • :evil:
    lesfirth wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    lesfirth wrote:
    Ericshun wrote:
    The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.

    So what you are saying is that all Shimano chains are made to the same specification and that some turn out better than others. The better ones are sold as Dura ace and the rubbish are sold as 105. If that is the case, do they replace all the hollow pins with solid ones when they down grade those chains to 105 or do they then put hollow pins in the good chains to sell them as Dura ace? Or do you have a degree in talking boll0cks?

    28 years in manufacturing of various stuff, tells me how it works. Whether or not you like it, bothers me not. They work on ‘indented specs’ a wide ‘cover all spec’ with relatively broad pass or fail criteria, to maximise yields / profits, with incrementally tighter sub specs, for the ‘higher end’ products. The tighter the spec, the lower the yield of products meeting that spec, which makes it ‘premium’. Premium = more money charged.


    I was probably working as a qualified engineer in the aero industry before you were born. I know what you are saying but I do not think it is applicable to Shimano chain production. Without any jargon just answer a simple question.

    A 105 11 speed chain has so;id pins and a Dura Ace 11 speed chain has hollow pins, so if they all start as you say i.e., the same, when do the pins get changed?

    The chains are made to a supplied spec. Often there is a different spec used by the manufacturer, to the end user / customer, and this tends to be tighter. With something like these particular chains, a D.A. chain will be dealt with as a separate entity, because it’s significantly different enough to warrant it, and it will be subject to a different set of specs than a more generic design, which could quite happily work in a ‘dog poo’ application, and the original intended application, subject to an indented spec. It’s the best part of the reason why a D.A. Chain is more expensive than a 105 chain. It’s not a terribly difficult concept to get one’s head around ( I’d have thought ). A bit like in a salad factory. A tomato won’t be subject to the same qualification criteria as a cucumber, but there are ‘premium quality’ tomatoes, and less good tomatoes. The ones that hit the tightest spec and the ones that don’t hit that spec limit are still tomatoes and will both make soup quite nicely, but the not so good ones won’t look good enough to end up in the “finest / chosen by you / insert generic marketing censored and a fancy pack” so they end up making soup, or in the “wonky” ingredient pile. Cucumbers are completely different ( other than they are still salad ingredients), so they will never be treated with the same specs as tomatoes.
  • Izumi may make shimano chains but KMC do also. KMC dont make all shimano chains just some of them.

    Hence the reason lots of chains in ‘Shimano’ packaging have ‘KMC’ stamped on the links.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,965
    Ericshun wrote:
    The chains are made to a supplied spec. Often there is a different spec used by the manufacturer, to the end user / customer, and this tends to be tighter. With something like these particular chains, a D.A. chain will be dealt with as a separate entity, because it’s significantly different enough to warrant it, and it will be subject to a different set of specs than a more generic design, which could quite happily work in a ‘dog poo’ application, and the original intended application, subject to an indented spec. It’s the best part of the reason why a D.A. Chain is more expensive than a 105 chain. It’s not a terribly difficult concept to get one’s head around ( I’d have thought ). A bit like in a salad factory. A tomato won’t be subject to the same qualification criteria as a cucumber, but there are ‘premium quality’ tomatoes, and less good tomatoes. The ones that hit the tightest spec and the ones that don’t hit that spec limit are still tomatoes and will both make soup quite nicely, but the not so good ones won’t look good enough to end up in the “finest / chosen by you / insert generic marketing censored and a fancy pack” so they end up making soup, or in the “wonky” ingredient pile. Cucumbers are completely different ( other than they are still salad ingredients), so they will never be treated with the same specs as tomatoes.

    Quite simply the most pitifully-absurd attempt at waffle I have ever read. Utterly clueless.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,965
    Ericshun wrote:
    Izumi may make shimano chains but KMC do also. KMC dont make all shimano chains just some of them.

    Hence the reason lots of chains in ‘Shimano’ packaging have ‘KMC’ stamped on the links.

    Can you post a picture, or link to an example of a Shimano chain with 'KMC' stamped on it? I bet you don't.
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