Chain difference?
Comments
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Imposter wrote:Ericshun wrote:thecycleclinic wrote:Izumi may make shimano chains but KMC do also. KMC dont make all shimano chains just some of them.
Hence the reason lots of chains in ‘Shimano’ packaging have ‘KMC’ stamped on the links.
Can you post a picture, or link to an example of a Shimano chain with 'KMC' stamped on it? I bet you don't.
I’d need a new ( OEM / generic ) chain in Shimano packaging, which I haven’t got.0 -
Imposter wrote:Ericshun wrote:The chains are made to a supplied spec. Often there is a different spec used by the manufacturer, to the end user / customer, and this tends to be tighter. With something like these particular chains, a D.A. chain will be dealt with as a separate entity, because it’s significantly different enough to warrant it, and it will be subject to a different set of specs than a more generic design, which could quite happily work in a ‘dog poo’ application, and the original intended application, subject to an indented spec. It’s the best part of the reason why a D.A. Chain is more expensive than a 105 chain. It’s not a terribly difficult concept to get one’s head around ( I’d have thought ). A bit like in a salad factory. A tomato won’t be subject to the same qualification criteria as a cucumber, but there are ‘premium quality’ tomatoes, and less good tomatoes. The ones that hit the tightest spec and the ones that don’t hit that spec limit are still tomatoes and will both make soup quite nicely, but the not so good ones won’t look good enough to end up in the “finest / chosen by you / insert generic marketing crap and a fancy pack” so they end up making soup, or in the “wonky” ingredient pile. Cucumbers are completely different ( other than they are still salad ingredients), so they will never be treated with the same specs as tomatoes.
Quite simply the most pitifully-absurd attempt at waffle I have ever read. Utterly clueless.
The fact you even posted that says everything anyone needs to know about you really.0 -
thecycleclinic wrote:Izumi may make shimano chains but KMC do also. KMC dont make all shimano chains just some of them.
You may say that, but unless you can support it with evidence, then it's just another claim on the internet.
The evidence for KMC making chains for Shimano is largely made up of people claiming as much on forums like this. There are also a couple of references elsewhere on the internet, including a vague mention on a Wiki page. There is no mention on the KMC website of any association with Shimano. You'd think they might mention it.
Izumi, on the other hand, make regular mentions of their manufacturing relationship with Shimano and have been doing so for 20/30 years or more. I'd say the evidence for Izumi far outweighs the evidence for KMC.0 -
Ericshun wrote:The fact you even posted that says everything anyone needs to know about you really.
It shows my observations are accurate, if that's what you mean.0 -
Ericshun wrote:I’d need a new ( OEM / generic ) chain in Shimano packaging, which I haven’t got.
There are lots of pictures of Shimano oem chains on the internet. None of them have 'KMC' stamped on them.0 -
Ericshun wrote::evil:lesfirth wrote:Ericshun wrote:lesfirth wrote:Ericshun wrote:The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.
So what you are saying is that all Shimano chains are made to the same specification and that some turn out better than others. The better ones are sold as Dura ace and the rubbish are sold as 105. If that is the case, do they replace all the hollow pins with solid ones when they down grade those chains to 105 or do they then put hollow pins in the good chains to sell them as Dura ace? Or do you have a degree in talking boll0cks?
28 years in manufacturing of various stuff, tells me how it works. Whether or not you like it, bothers me not. They work on ‘indented specs’ a wide ‘cover all spec’ with relatively broad pass or fail criteria, to maximise yields / profits, with incrementally tighter sub specs, for the ‘higher end’ products. The tighter the spec, the lower the yield of products meeting that spec, which makes it ‘premium’. Premium = more money charged.
I was probably working as a qualified engineer in the aero industry before you were born. I know what you are saying but I do not think it is applicable to Shimano chain production. Without any jargon just answer a simple question.
A 105 11 speed chain has so;id pins and a Dura Ace 11 speed chain has hollow pins, so if they all start as you say i.e., the same, when do the pins get changed?
The chains are made to a supplied spec. Often there is a different spec used by the manufacturer, to the end user / customer, and this tends to be tighter. With something like these particular chains, a D.A. chain will be dealt with as a separate entity, because it’s significantly different enough to warrant it, and it will be subject to a different set of specs than a more generic design, which could quite happily work in a ‘dog poo’ application, and the original intended application, subject to an indented spec. It’s the best part of the reason why a D.A. Chain is more expensive than a 105 chain. It’s not a terribly difficult concept to get one’s head around ( I’d have thought ). A bit like in a salad factory. A tomato won’t be subject to the same qualification criteria as a cucumber, but there are ‘premium quality’ tomatoes, and less good tomatoes. The ones that hit the tightest spec and the ones that don’t hit that spec limit are still tomatoes and will both make soup quite nicely, but the not so good ones won’t look good enough to end up in the “finest / chosen by you / insert generic marketing crap and a fancy pack” so they end up making soup, or in the “wonky” ingredient pile. Cucumbers are completely different ( other than they are still salad ingredients), so they will never be treated with the same specs as tomatoes.
Absolutely tremendous stuff! Keep it up!0 -
Ericshun wrote:
That's interesting (not). We can now add Women's Hockey to the list of subjects that you know absolutely f-all about...0 -
Ericshun wrote:The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.
My last DA chain snapped 3 times before I got fed up and dumped it!!0 -
WeezySwiss wrote:Ericshun wrote:The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.
My last DA chain snapped 3 times before I got fed up and dumped it!!
Obviously had cucumber in it....0 -
Imposter wrote:WeezySwiss wrote:Ericshun wrote:The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.
My last DA chain snapped 3 times before I got fed up and dumped it!!
Obviously had cucumber in it....
Well it was like it was made of cheese. Probably a manufacturing fault, but still annoying0 -
WeezySwiss wrote:Ericshun wrote:The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.
My last DA chain snapped 3 times before I got fed up and dumped it!!
That's because it was made out of Tomatoes. If it had been made from a higher spec cucumber it would have been fine.0 -
Brakeless wrote:WeezySwiss wrote:Ericshun wrote:The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.
My last DA chain snapped 3 times before I got fed up and dumped it!!
That's because it was made out of Tomatoes. If it had been made from a higher spec cucumber it would have been fine.
edit - Imposter beat me to it
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Imposter wrote:thecycleclinic wrote:Izumi may make shimano chains but KMC do also. KMC dont make all shimano chains just some of them.
You may say that, but unless you can support it with evidence, then it's just another claim on the internet.
The evidence for KMC making chains for Shimano is largely made up of people claiming as much on forums like this. There are also a couple of references elsewhere on the internet, including a vague mention on a Wiki page. There is no mention on the KMC website of any association with Shimano. You'd think they might mention it.
Izumi, on the other hand, make regular mentions of their manufacturing relationship with Shimano and have been doing so for 20/30 years or more. I'd say the evidence for Izumi far outweighs the evidence for KMC.
so who makes Campagnolo ones then?Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am
De Sisti wrote:
This is one of the silliest threads I've come across.
Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honoursmithy21 wrote:
He's right you know.0 -
WeezySwiss wrote:Ericshun wrote:The D.A. chains are pretty much identical to the lower G.S. chains, in form and function, the difference comes in the specification limits they have to meet, at the factory. They are batch tested, and the Dura Ace chains will have the tightest specs applied, regarding stress corrosion ( a technical measure employed to determine durability), and mechanical tolerances, regarding size, shape and manufacturing defects. The lower yield chains, cost more but should last longer, and be more geometrically similar, from chain to chain.
My last DA chain snapped 3 times before I got fed up and dumped it!!
You had one of those Wonky one's, what you should have bought is the DA finest variety.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Matthewfalle wrote:so who makes Campagnolo ones then?
Dunno..
Edit - although this clip suggests that Campag make their own, in house...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HpwQfRvB4o&app=desktop0 -
mmmmm popcorn
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Vino'sGhost wrote:mmmmm popcorn
Nah, salad...and soup...0 -
Imposter wrote:Vino'sGhost wrote:mmmmm popcorn
Nah, salad...and soup...
LOL he's a total courgette. brilliant0 -
how about Microshift?Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am
De Sisti wrote:
This is one of the silliest threads I've come across.
Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honoursmithy21 wrote:
He's right you know.0 -
In a desperate attempt to add some actual value in this thread (who am I kidding?) I will say that in my own experience Campagnolo Record chain appears to be a cut above all others in terms of longevity. I'd put Sram Red chains at the bottom; they seem to be made of cheese - I've bent at least three with ill-timed use of a motorised front derailleur (and yes, of course that's my cack-handedness at work too) - and they wear out (based on stretch to 0.75%) in maybe 2.5k kms, where the Record chains are lasting me at least twice as long despite being ridden in worse conditions. On the other hand Sram chains are very cheap, so the cost per km is roughly the same.
I had some issues with noise using Shimano DA7900 10-speed chains, so moved away from Shimano. I've not tried 9000- or 9100-series chains.0 -
Matthewfalle wrote:how about Microshift?
Stop it!0 -
964Cup wrote:In a desperate attempt to add some actual value in this thread (who am I kidding?) I will say that in my own experience Campagnolo Record chain appears to be a cut above all others in terms of longevity. I'd put Sram Red chains at the bottom; they seem to be made of cheese - I've bent at least three with ill-timed use of a motorised front derailleur (and yes, of course that's my cack-handedness at work too) - and they wear out (based on stretch to 0.75%) in maybe 2.5k kms, where the Record chains are lasting me at least twice as long despite being ridden in worse conditions. On the other hand Sram chains are very cheap, so the cost per km is roughly the same.
I had some issues with noise using Shimano DA7900 10-speed chains, so moved away from Shimano. I've not tried 9000- or 9100-series chains.
I have a noisy chain issue with 9000 series chains, same frame and wheels but ultegra cassette and chain = Silent. Moving the wheels around between systems doesnt ease the issue.0 -
I've just fitted one of these beauties:
Be interested to see how it runs with mechanical DA 9100.Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
Scott CR1 SL 12
Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
Scott Foil 180 -
Haven't used Record chains but Chorus and KMC have both been brilliant for me, although I am a fair weather rider and look after my chains.0
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WeezySwiss wrote:Imposter wrote:WeezySwiss wrote:
Well it was like it was made of cheese. Probably a manufacturing fault, but still annoying
That’s the problem with this sort of batch testing. It detects likely rogue batches, based on extrapolated results / data harvested from sample sizes dictated by overall batch size. It’s almost impossible to find an anomalous single chain, without 100 percent testing the entire batch. Unfortunately that’s also impossible because the types of test used to determine durability are destructive. If I was paying Dura Ace prices, and the chains were failing that often, I’d be making sure the retailers and manufacturers were aware of the problem.0 -
Okay.....964Cup wrote:In a desperate attempt to add some actual value in this thread964Cup wrote:I will say that in my own experience Campagnolo Record chain appears to be a cut above all others in terms of longevity.
Do continue.964Cup wrote:I'd put Sram Red chains at the bottom; they seem to be made of cheese - I've bent at least three with ill-timed use of a motorised front derailleur (and yes, of course that's my cack-handedness at work too) - and they wear out (based on stretch to 0.75%) in maybe 2.5k kms, where the Record chains are lasting me at least twice as long despite being ridden in worse conditions. On the other hand Sram chains are very cheap, so the cost per km is roughly the same.
The apparent lack of understanding of what induces chain failure / wear / stretch in this bit doesn’t ‘add value’ to this thread at all IMHO.964Cup wrote:I had some issues with noise using Shimano DA7900 10-speed chains, so moved away from Shimano. I've not tried 9000- or 9100-series chains.
They are directional, noisy chains in an otherwise identical system could point to the chain being installed incorrectly (IMHO).0 -
Ericshun wrote:The apparent lack of understanding of what induces chain failure / wear / stretch in this bit doesn’t ‘add value’ to this thread at all IMHO.
Ironic post of the day.. 0 -
Given bumuncher is Decathlon man, I would wonder where his experience of Dura Ace chains comes from. I would have thought his total experience of any chain would either be from what he wears round his neck or from whipping people who take the p*ss0
