Is this cool?

david7m

orraloon wrote:

If I self-declare as a cat, does that mean that I can cr@p in my neighbour's' flowerbeds with impunity?

Ha ha

StillGoing

Killerclown wrote:

How much effort does a ‘trans’ athlete actually have to make though? Is it enough to simply ‘identify as a woman’ in order to be able to compete, or do you have to go for the whole cut and tuck?

The law states that if they claim to be transgender from/to either sex, then no body/company/association etc has the authority to require them to prove it. You can't ask a bloke dressed as a woman turning up to apply to be a leader in the Girl Guides, to lift his skirt to prove he no longer has meat and two veg.

This whole transgender issue is a minority trying to force their lifestyle on the majority. You want to be a woman? Dress like one, walk like one, sit down to pee like one, change your name from Dan to Danielle and even have yourself castrated etc if you wish. But you aren't a woman to me irrespective of how much your appearance may fool some. I have a young daughter as well as two older ones and as we know, young children have no shame in speaking out loud when something isn't right. She'll have no problem shouting out why is that man wearing a dress if she sees one.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Is there enough data out there to demonstrate that women who go through trans-gender procedures to become men are just as capable of sporting success (in sports where physical performance is important) at world level in men categories, as men who become women and then compete in women categories?

If the statistics in both scenarios aren't in the same ballpark, then with my current very limited knowledge of this minefield, I can't possibly see how this can be cool.

Vino'sGhost

orraloon wrote:

If I self-declare as a cat, does that mean that I can cr@p in my neighbour's' flowerbeds with impunity?

AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Vino'sGhost

inseine wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Dabber wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Dabber wrote:

So does McKinnon have monthly periods, is McKinnon's bonestructure (pelvis for instance) the same a women? Does McKinnon have a womb and all the other internal organs of a woman? I don't know the answer to this but if McKinnon doesn't then McKinnon isn't a woman. At least IMO.

Surely the only bits of "being a woman" are those relevant to athletic performance - if they can be controlled so trans athletes are on a par why not let them compete. So long as it's doing no harm to anyone else my default is people should be allowed to do as they please including living as whatever gender they want.

Was McKinnon born a a male? My understand is that McKinnon was.
Has McKinnon got a penis or has surgery been performed? It isn't clear to me what the situation is.
It does seem that McKinnon is undertaking drug treatment to manage testosterone. An artificial process.
Did McKinnon develop a musculature, in the years prior to deciding they would now call themselves a female, more akin to that of a male? Highly likely I would have thought.

So, we have a level playing field do we? Should McKinnon should be considered a woman as far as sports competition is concerned?
At best there is a lot of doubt about that. If there's any doubt at all, women competitors should not be potentially disadvantaged so that McKinnon's human rights aren't breached.
Btw, I've no problem by McKinnon living as what ever sex McKinnon wants.

It seems to me the answer is to introduce a new class of "sex category" in sport that like attributed athletes could compete against each other.

Although I've piped up here with my views I really don't care much about it. It doesn't affect me, I'm not a woman and I don't have a daughter..... but if I was a competing woman sportswomen I think I'd have a very strong view about it.

Nicely put. I have three daughters and i think its a shame that their ability to share competative sport with other girls / women is distorted this way. Not even to mention the safe guarding issues. They have the same view.

What happened to ‘of course its cool, she says shes a woman then shes a woman. End of’ ?

i know. i wasnt serious, its an internet thing.

Vino'sGhost

philthy3 wrote:

Killerclown wrote:

How much effort does a ‘trans’ athlete actually have to make though? Is it enough to simply ‘identify as a woman’ in order to be able to compete, or do you have to go for the whole cut and tuck?

The law states that if they claim to be transgender from/to either sex, then no body/company/association etc has the authority to require them to prove it. You can't ask a bloke dressed as a woman turning up to apply to be a leader in the Girl Guides, to lift his skirt to prove he no longer has meat and two veg.

This whole transgender issue is a minority trying to force their lifestyle on the majority. You want to be a woman? Dress like one, walk like one, sit down to pee like one, change your name from Dan to Danielle and even have yourself castrated etc if you wish. But you aren't a woman to me irrespective of how much your appearance may fool some. I have a young daughter as well as two older ones and as we know, young children have no shame in speaking out loud when something isn't right. She'll have no problem shouting out why is that man wearing a dress if she sees one.

if a bloke in a skirt turned up to girl guides they have a policy to accept him as a woman. If thats what he says it is.

on the other hand if a young woman puts trousers on and says she feels like a man, they chuck her out. They dont need her kind.

slowbike

philthy3 wrote:

The law states that if they claim to be transgender from/to either sex, then no body/company/association etc has the authority to require them to prove it. You can't ask a bloke dressed as a woman turning up to apply to be a leader in the Girl Guides, to lift his skirt to prove he no longer has meat and two veg.

It shouldn't matter - there are female scout leaders - nobody bats an eyelid - it's ADULTS supervising CHILDREN - it _should_ all be fine. Obviously the bit that matters is that _some_ adults take advantage of their situation for self gratification or monetary gain - to the detriment of the child. I don't care what sex they align with - they should be removed (personally I think they should be removed full stop, but we're not allowed to do that any more)

philthy3 wrote:

This whole transgender issue is a minority trying to force their lifestyle on the majority. You want to be a woman? Dress like one, walk like one, sit down to pee like one, change your name from Dan to Danielle and even have yourself castrated etc if you wish. But you aren't a woman to me irrespective of how much your appearance may fool some. I have a young daughter as well as two older ones and as we know, young children have no shame in speaking out loud when something isn't right. She'll have no problem shouting out why is that man wearing a dress if she sees one.

Again - doesn't matter - you should be able to wear what you like, call yourself what you like etc etc ... yes, children will call out what doesn't look "normal" to them - no need to be embarrassed by that.

One issue for me is where we have handicap systems based on gender which have the capacity for abuse. The handicap is there to allow people to compete on equal terms - what needs checking is that the rules for entering the handicap are achieving that aim.
eg - Sailing races - we get fleet races of all the boats of the same class racing against each other - no time corrections - it's first over the line wins - great - but what if I had a boat from a different (faster) class that I wanted to race in this class? Fortunately for sailing - unless you meet the measurement rules, you're not allowed - and for one design classes, that's pretty stringent...
For development classes theres a bit more leeway - hull lengths, widths, freeboard have to be within constraints and there's similar rules on the mast height, sail sizes etc etc. so you couldn't take say an International 14, reduce the sail size and race in a Merlin class race (they're both development classes)... the International 14 is significantly faster than a Merlin - so it'd take just a mediocre sailor to easily win the Merlin races - seems sensible and fair enough as all it would take is for one rogue boat to "get away with it" and everyone would be doing it ...

In the same way - womens cycle racing needs "measurement rules" to ensure everyone is competing equally - do the trans-gender competitors have an advantage? One trans-gender winner doesn't mean they all have an advantage - if they were winning every race fairly easily then there's definitely something wrong - and I don't believe any trans-gender cyclist has a world record - so it seems that for now at least, there's equal opportunity. But it is something that needs to be monitored.

Vino'sGhost

Slowbike wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

The law states that if they claim to be transgender from/to either sex, then no body/company/association etc has the authority to require them to prove it. You can't ask a bloke dressed as a woman turning up to apply to be a leader in the Girl Guides, to lift his skirt to prove he no longer has meat and two veg.

It shouldn't matter - there are female scout leaders - nobody bats an eyelid - it's ADULTS supervising CHILDREN - it _should_ all be fine. Obviously the bit that matters is that _some_ adults take advantage of their situation for self gratification or monetary gain - to the detriment of the child. I don't care what sex they align with - they should be removed (personally I think they should be removed full stop, but we're not allowed to do that any more)

philthy3 wrote:

This whole transgender issue is a minority trying to force their lifestyle on the majority. You want to be a woman? Dress like one, walk like one, sit down to pee like one, change your name from Dan to Danielle and even have yourself castrated etc if you wish. But you aren't a woman to me irrespective of how much your appearance may fool some. I have a young daughter as well as two older ones and as we know, young children have no shame in speaking out loud when something isn't right. She'll have no problem shouting out why is that man wearing a dress if she sees one.

Again - doesn't matter - you should be able to wear what you like, call yourself what you like etc etc ... yes, children will call out what doesn't look "normal" to them - no need to be embarrassed by that.

One issue for me is where we have handicap systems based on gender which have the capacity for abuse. The handicap is there to allow people to compete on equal terms - what needs checking is that the rules for entering the handicap are achieving that aim.
eg - Sailing races - we get fleet races of all the boats of the same class racing against each other - no time corrections - it's first over the line wins - great - but what if I had a boat from a different (faster) class that I wanted to race in this class? Fortunately for sailing - unless you meet the measurement rules, you're not allowed - and for one design classes, that's pretty stringent...
For development classes theres a bit more leeway - hull lengths, widths, freeboard have to be within constraints and there's similar rules on the mast height, sail sizes etc etc. so you couldn't take say an International 14, reduce the sail size and race in a Merlin class race (they're both development classes)... the International 14 is significantly faster than a Merlin - so it'd take just a mediocre sailor to easily win the Merlin races - seems sensible and fair enough as all it would take is for one rogue boat to "get away with it" and everyone would be doing it ...

In the same way - womens cycle racing needs "measurement rules" to ensure everyone is competing equally - do the trans-gender competitors have an advantage? One trans-gender winner doesn't mean they all have an advantage - if they were winning every race fairly easily then there's definitely something wrong - and I don't believe any trans-gender cyclist has a world record - so it seems that for now at least, there's equal opportunity. But it is something that needs to be monitored.

I think youll find that the scouting movement is open to people off all sex, there is no discrimination. The Girl guides is a different organisation and they do not accept men. but they will put a self identifying woman in the same showering facility as young girls because "she" is a woman.

RichN95.

Currently in the UK and many other countries what gender someone is has become almost irrelevant in actual practical terms. There are few examples of where genders are actually segregated. Bathrooms/changing rooms is one and sport is another. These are segregations for the benefit of the 'weaker' (for want of a better word )party'. Sport is likely to become the battleground for the gender identity wars that have been going on for sometime (largely between militant trans activists and radical feminists). It seems to me that McKinnon sees her victory primarily as a victory within the context of these wars rather than what is right for sport.

john80

DeVlaeminck wrote:

john80 wrote:

Sometimes in life just because you can do something does not mean you should. Elite sports is not an area for men to become women and then compete against women. Whilst she might have low testosterone she looks like a man, was a man and now is some form of either operated or self declared women status. It is biology at birth I am afraid in this case for me.

In the case of testosterone for women I think this is unfair on the actual women such as Caster Semenya. She was born a women, been subjected to independent verification of this and is no different to the exceptions that are people such a Usain Bolt.

Welcome to the new world where people can be what they want to be regardless of all norms. I wonder when we will come out of this rabbit hole.

Re Semenya I don't think we know what her biology is. I assume she is biologically intersex - if so she isn't really born a woman is she. I have sympathy for her but look at the 800m podium in Rio - without trivialising it how many would consider any of those three as women - if you are a straight man or gay woman could you possibly view them as a potential partner? Your gut instinct is it's three blokes, they look, talk and even run like men.

Semenya has had a formal process of gender verification done and this has declared that she is a women using experts that are specialists in this area. When she goes for a shower then I am pretty sure she does not have a 8" member and two balls as this might have been pretty obvious to the testers. Sport is not a beauty contest as this sort of thing already exists in the form of pageants with a fair number of women taking issue with this concept. By all means you might not want to marry them but I do respect their prowess in their chosen field. I don't respect the self selection method of gender which is frankly ludicrous. I am off to enter a greyhound race as I think I might be a dog. I will be fighting for the rights of my fellow dogs as the start cages are awfully small for a larger dog like me.

timothyw

I think the case of Semenya is interesting as regards to the current subject because my understanding is that she lives in much the way that we'd expect a typical man to - she is married to a woman and Caster is, from the pictures I've seen, the one who wears the trousers (in the most literal sense).

Does make you think that had Semenya been born in a slightly different time or a slightly different country she might now be competing as a trans man rather than woman - although clearly she is very happy to identify as a woman inspite of what would appear to be somewhat unusual biology and a more masculine lifestyle than most.

Still, one could speculate that she has taken the interpretation/decision that is most likely to result in athletic success, rather than relative mediocrity, and you could certainly say the same of McKinnon, who would not be winning masters sprint events in the men's categories.

It's interesting that two of the highest profile trans people on the planet (Pippa and Caitlyn) had achieved success at the very highest level of male sport - you can't help but point out that had they been able to self-certify as female at the time then their level of dominance would have been absurd.

I can't help but wonder though, given what we know about doping in sport, if certain hormones taken in the persuit of success at the time might have been what led to such changes within their bodies that led to them ultimately questioning and changing their own gender - given that our gender is largely the product of our hormones. There are certainly East German female athletes who transitioned to becoming male after years of heavy doping.

DeVlaeminck

john80 wrote:

Semenya has had a formal process of gender verification done and this has declared that she is a women using experts that are specialists in this area. When she goes for a shower then I am pretty sure she does not have a 8" member and two balls as this might have been pretty obvious to the testers. Sport is not a beauty contest as this sort of thing already exists in the form of pageants with a fair number of women taking issue with this concept. By all means you might not want to marry them but I do respect their prowess in their chosen field. I don't respect the self selection method of gender which is frankly ludicrous. I am off to enter a greyhound race as I think I might be a dog. I will be fighting for the rights of my fellow dogs as the start cages are awfully small for a larger dog like me.

Yes but we don't know the protocol by which these experts decide if someone is female. There are a number of ways in which people can be intersex - have male and female traits - different combinations of the xy chromosomes, internal testes and resistance to testosterone so the body doesn't develop male chracteristics etc, a number of different ways in which people are born non-typical.

Male/female is not always an either/or even biologically which I know has already been stated in this thread.

Wheelspinner

Mackinnon wasn't the fastest qualifier in her sprint event - came in second, and the times of the top 4 were extremely close in that qual. In the subsequent eliminations rounds, the times posted by the other competitors in winning their quarter and semi finals were still pretty much the same - quicker or slower by a few tenths/hundredths, but basically no different.

The winning time in the final was no different, and the bronze medal races were won in same or even slightly quicker time.

If you can be bothered checking the other events (age groups) or mens equivalent, the gap between winner and minor placings in speed/time whatever was very similar.

Mackinnon was not a standout, vastly better then the opposition racer, just one of the top 4-6 of them in her age group. Whether her results are because she's not had to work as hard as her opposition due to a perceived advantage from the male background, or whether because she's just a better sprint racer than the others is hard to tell.

If this was Olympics or the real World Champs, it might be worth caring about, but since it is Masters age group racing it seems pretty insignificant really.

Quick - name the winner of the Mens 55+ Pursuit Gold Medal.

See? Who cares? A trans-gender person "won" one event out of about 100. Big deal.

peat

That it was a competitive contest is moot. I'm a totally unexceptional male athlete and am usually just a whisker ahead of the fastest women in TT's or Hill-climbs. How about I declare myself a lady and go and clean-up at my regional amateur events?

Not cool.

Paulie W

TimothyW wrote:

I think the case of Semenya is interesting as regards to the current subject because my understanding is that she lives in much the way that we'd expect a typical man to - she is married to a woman and Caster is, from the pictures I've seen, the one who wears the trousers (in the most literal sense).

Does make you think that had Semenya been born in a slightly different time or a slightly different country she might now be competing as a trans man rather than woman - although clearly she is very happy to identify as a woman inspite of what would appear to be somewhat unusual biology and a more masculine lifestyle than most.

Still, one could speculate that she has taken the interpretation/decision that is most likely to result in athletic success, rather than relative mediocrity, and you could certainly say the same of McKinnon, who would not be winning masters sprint events in the men's categories.

I sincerely doubt that many if any people are making decisions on whether to transition based on potential sporting success or lack of! There is an odd narrative in this thread that seems to see being Tans as some flippant choice people make and another one that somehow see Trans people as a poweful group controlling society - most Tans people have a pretty shit life and have little or no power.

bompington

Paulie W wrote:

I sincerely doubt that many if any people are making decisions on whether to transition based on potential sporting success or lack of! There is an odd narrative in this thread that seems to see being Tans as some flippant choice people make and another one that somehow see Trans people as a poweful group controlling society - most Tans people have a pretty shoot life and have little or no power.

This is largely true.

But people are actually getting prosecuted and sacked from their jobs for, for example, using the objectively correct pronoun to describe someone. Meanwhile, in the women's prison he demanded (and was freely given the right) to go to, a male rapist sexually assaults fellow inmates.

No-one here, or pretty much anywhere nowadays, is denying that trans issues are not just a trivial matter of fancying wearing a frock, and I think everyone accepts that people should be respected and allowed to live their life how they want.

But the speed with which a very small minority interest has managed to force change, and what's more, change the culture so that any debate, disagreement or argument is utterly taboo - that's unprecedented, and quite scary.

JeemyW

Very interesting stuff. I found these quotes here, and I have removed the ones that show the advantages of an XX chromosome set, which are less relevant to sport. The point being that an XY chromosome set gives a sporting advantage to the person that is likely relevant to better cycling performance.

Lets just assume Men = XY and Women = XX, I don't think that's too far a stretch!

Men are physically stronger than women, who have, on average, less total muscle mass, both in absolute terms and relative to total body mass. The greater muscle mass of men is the result of testosterone-induced muscular hypertrophy. Men also have denser, stronger bones, tendons, and ligaments.

Men have greater cardiovascular reserve, with larger hearts, greater lung volume per body mass, a higher red blood cell count, and higher haemoglobin. They also have higher circulating clotting factors, which leads to faster healing of wounds.

And perhaps less relevant, but interesting:

Men are taller than women, by an average of about 15cm or 6 inches. The average adult man in America is 175.8cm tall, versus 162cm for the average adult woman.

So the provable facts state that if you are born with XY chromosomes, on average you will have larger lungs, heart, muscle mass, stronger bones and ligaments, throughout your development, primarily due to "testosterone-induced muscular hypertrophy". Even if you argue that in a particular sporting discipline, this is not necessarily advantageous, its provably different enough to justify two classes of competition, traditionally "men's" and "women's" cycling/tennis/why.

Dabber wrote:

Did McKinnon develop a musculature, in the years prior to deciding they would now call themselves a female, more akin to that of a male? Highly likely I would have thought.

From what I've read McKinnon started transitioning at 29 years old or so. Its pretty much agreed that full body development is complete by 18-21.

So my 2 cents is that regardless of current testosterone levels, which might affect stamina and performance in competition and trading, this person has 8-11, or 29 years of advantage, dependent how you view it. Either way its a huge disparity.

Effectively McKinnon was illegally doping the T for 29 years, then stopped, but was still allowed to compete.

“We cannot have a woman legally recognized as a trans woman in society,” McKinnon says, “and not be recognized that way in sports. … Focusing on performance advantage is largely irrelevant because this is a rights issue. We shouldn’t be worried about trans people taking over the Olympics. We should be worried about their fairness and human rights instead.”

I am sure this won't be a popular opinion, but I feel this is simply a case of a selfish person using an unfair advantage to win. If we cannot focus on performance advantage, then what is the point of fair competition?

I feel McKinnon's approach is very disingenuous; it may just be his/her personality. But I think its cheating....

It all comes down to what is or isn't "fair competition". I read up a lot about it; I am not a competitive person at all so its interesting to me - all my family and friends are competitive, athletes (mainly rugby, cycling, golf), and some are pro or semi-pro. I found a good article here, and possibly a relevant quote.

One 2010 study published in the Journal of Economic Psychology found that competitive pressure had no effect on a subject’s ability to complete a difficult task — but it did make subjects substantially more likely to cheat, especially if the task was exceptionally challenging for them.

One could argue that higher testosterone levels make one more aggressive and competitive.

If one is angry with Lance Armstrong for lying about his P-E drug use, if it was "the most devious sustained deception ever perpetrated in world sporting history", then this person's refusal to be T-limited must be comparable, no?

I agree it doesn't matter over much but it IS interesting.

Also, when reading about it I found, in reference to the comment above about Eastern European and Russian athletes who had doped on T for a long time eventually transitioning, the fact that Armstrong accused the test labs of faking his samples. Apparently this was a genuine tactic used during the Cold War both to conceal doping within host countries, and discredit competitors.

Paulie W

bompington wrote:

But people are actually getting prosecuted and sacked from their jobs for, for example, using the objectively correct pronoun to describe someone. Meanwhile, in the women's prison he demanded (and was freely given the right) to go to, a male rapist sexually assaults fellow inmates.
.

There is actually a very complex process for dealing with Trans people in the criminal justice system so I think the freely bit above is not the case. Clearly they got it very wrong but again the media narrative is that this guy simply said he was a trans female and got his way - that's not what happens.

I do think that organisations are afraid of how Equality Law will be interpreted around Trans (and this is partly fuelled by radical trans activists) and consequently make questionable decisions.

Paulie W

bompington wrote:

No-one here, or pretty much anywhere nowadays, is denying that trans issues are not just a trivial matter of fancying wearing a frock, and I think everyone accepts that people should be respected and allowed to live their life how they want.

We are clearly reading a different thread and living in a different world!

kingstonian

orraloon wrote:

If I self-declare as a cat, does that mean that I can cr@p in my neighbour's' flowerbeds with impunity?

Yep, go ahead. I'm sure your neighbour will be absolutely fine with it (as long as you don't live next to me.....)

bobmcstuff

Peat wrote:

That it was a competitive contest is moot. I'm a totally unexceptional male athlete and am usually just a whisker ahead of the fastest women in TT's or Hill-climbs. How about I declare myself a lady and go and clean-up at my regional amateur events?

Not cool.

It's not as simple as just declaring yourself a lady and turning up to compete, I don't think.

Vino'sGhost

bobmcstuff wrote:

Peat wrote:

That it was a competitive contest is moot. I'm a totally unexceptional male athlete and am usually just a whisker ahead of the fastest women in TT's or Hill-climbs. How about I declare myself a lady and go and clean-up at my regional amateur events?

Not cool.

It's not as simple as just declaring yourself a lady and turning up to compete, I don't think.

It will be next year as a result of changes to the gender recognition and discrimination laws

burnthesheep

Vino'sGhost wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

Peat wrote:

That it was a competitive contest is moot. I'm a totally unexceptional male athlete and am usually just a whisker ahead of the fastest women in TT's or Hill-climbs. How about I declare myself a lady and go and clean-up at my regional amateur events?

Not cool.

It's not as simple as just declaring yourself a lady and turning up to compete, I don't think.

It will be next year as a result of changes to the gender recognition and discrimination laws

There are hard facts about differences (ones not related to hormones) between men and women that affects performance in endurance sport. In other words, ones that can't be changed by drug therapies or routine gender surgeries.

Just take a look at the VO2max and watts/kg for elite men vs. elite women. Come on, a whole 1.0 w/kg higher? You're not going to bridge that gap with hormone therapy.

When people legislate only on emotion and political bias and ignore facts, they end up injuring others (in endurance sport and sport in general).

This isn't the right to vote, or marry, or keep children, or keep a non-athletic job. Endurance sport relies on traits undeniable through science that those other work positions do not.

Yes, we can't discriminate and cannot injure others. At the same time, we cannot completely ignore facts.

JeemyW

bobmcstuff wrote:

It's not as simple as just declaring yourself a lady and turning up to compete, I don't think.

That's actually what it seems to be in McKinnon's case. Not only that but (s)he is using the agenda to get unfair advantages.

McKinnon says that making him suppress his body’s natural testosterone production in order to compete in women’s sporting events is a violation of his human rights.

I may have this wrong but it appears McKinnon claims endogenous testosterone of 10nmol/l. Semenya is being held to <5.

She said there is no research to suggest that testosterone and body development would in anyway enhance the physical performance of transgender athletes.

McKinnon wrote:

As it happens, high endogenous testosterone has, at best, been shown to provide a 2-3% competitive advantage.

But this ignores the competitive advantage of being born as, and living as, a biological male for 29 years......and its a lie!

His/her science is very poor - every article, every quote, every blog post, says that "next time" (s)he will present the evidence for why trans athletes should be included in competitive sport without restriction, that (s)he will "in a future post" provide the evidence about the 2-3% figure quoted.

McKinnon goes as far as to present an opposite example of a top 20% runner who transitions from men's to women's categories and "remained a top 20% runner post transition: she didn't magically go from a top 20% runner to top 5%". This is a made up example. She says things like "we have some evidence".

Nothing is cited, nothing is science, everything seems geared towards getting her out of the quandary and into the spotlight.

She also seems boastful:

As far as we know, I'm the FIRST EVER trans woman world champion in an individual event...ever.

Hubris much?

Some other quotes I pulled up:

a cursory glance at her physique reveals that she is built like a biological male

We have no idea why men outperform women in sports? Wrong. Men are bigger than women. Period. Additionally, men have more muscle mass: Skeletal muscle constitutes about 42% of a man's body mass but only 36% of a woman's body mass. This is literally textbook anatomy & physiology.

Dr. McKinnon's claim that the performance gap between men and women in sports being due to sociological differences rather than biological ones is pure rubbish.

Averaging over different sports and different individual people, male bodies have a 10 percent advantage.

our hypothesis didn't hold up. In a set of swimming and running races, each women's world record was about 90 percent of the men's world record. The Israeli physicist Ira Hammerman spoke at the 2010 Wingate Congress of Exercise & Sports Sciences, and he found that this little-known ratio held across all sports.

The one thing I found that might mitigate this damning set of circumstance is the statistic that in the US, women make up only 41 percent of high school athletes; and this percentage is much lower in less "progressive" countries.

So one could argue that women could be comparative to men in performance if given the chance.

But:

(a) I bet if you asked women if they'd like to blend their leagues/divisions with the mens', the answer would be no.
And
(b) This does nothing to change the argument that a man who identifies as a woman, still retains the advantages of his/her biological factors.

The 10% difference has been true for 55 years of data collection. Few other interesting titbits I collected while wasting time on this:"

• wrt the maximum amount of oxygen an athlete can use in a minute; Men have an average of 13.6 to 17.5 grams of hemoglobin per decalliter in their blood. Women have 12.0 to 15.5 g/dl. 12% in favour of male athletes.
• if you compare maximum oxygen consupmtion statistics they average to 72.7 for women and 82.1 for men. 72.7 is about 89 percent of 82.1. That's 11% in factour.
• Running. Swimming. Rowing. Kayaking. Short distance, long distance. Accomplished in teams or attempted alone.These are such diverse events, requiring different parts of the body and diverse types of talent. And yet they all share something: Their women's speed world records are all about 90 percent of their men's speed world records, in both short, middle and long distances.
• Taking blockers in around a competition while having levels above your competition the rest of your training time is no different than a male taking exogenous T in training and then taking a blocker before an antidoping control. I.e. cheating.
• What's happened here is someone who happens to be transgender, also happens to be a very good cyclist. There's no reason to believe she would be any different had she been born a woman. The results below show it's not as simple as Man = Strong = Dominant as a Female as well.
• This will hurt the cause of transgender activism in the end because it is so unreasonable and unfair to females.
• It takes about 10 years for the process to be fully completed; this is why trans atheletes are so dominant in women's athletics. Someone who has only recently started therapy is still going to be much stronger than the average woman.
• Male puberty has given him a permanent advantage that cannot be compensated for with hormones or surgery.
• McKinnon is benefiting from denser muscles and bones, higher oxygen intake and lower resting heart rates.
• The only likely reason McKinnon has failed to overcome some in many of his races against the women is likely due to the fact that women tend to have more natural endurance than men do, and this sport, in particular, requires a lot of it.
• labeling others as transphobic for pointing out simple numbers and biological facts is not making McKinnon look any better.
• McKinnon is a fraud and a cheat, and it’s unfair to other women who now have to walk home with lesser medals and worse finishes because they were put up against opponents who get natural physical advantages.

I think the repeated calls against transphobia are very diversionary, when what's being exhibited is nothing less than sexism! The professional female athletes in this case are now being reduced to "biologically disadvantaged opponents".

orraloon

VeloNews podcast has a different edit on the Q&A with McKinnon to the article linked to above.

This was a badminton player who transitioned late 20s, took up cycling via gym spin classes when looking for an activity to replace badminton, not available when he/she moved from Canada to take up a job in US. So no background / pedigree in cycling, but now holds a UCI World title. Hmmm.

And definitely driving an agenda. Thought the VeloNews interviewer gave her/him an easy ride.

webboo

Whether it just the picture but Ms McKinnon doesn’t look very athletic for a world champion.

poppit

If you're interested, here is the video of her first ride in the final, you'll need to wind it forward to 1:04:34, https://youtu.be/Jvi3Ch3Uh60

BTW, the fastest qualifier didn't race in the subsequent heats, don't know why.

poppit

Another fact, as stated before, McKinnon is very new to track cycling, I believe that this is the first time she had set a 200 time on an indoor track and she was disappointed with the time as she had been going faster outdoors. In the final she was racing a multiple world champion who is also a track coach in Holland.

webboo

I’m sure it’s just my imagination but the guy holding her up at the start seemed to be reaching a long way under her saddle.

imposter2.0

poppit wrote:

If you're interested, here is the video of her first ride in the final, you'll need to wind it forward to 1:04:34, https://youtu.be/Jvi3Ch3Uh60

BTW, the fastest qualifier didn't race in the subsequent heats, don't know why.

Not really a huge margin for the win there - certainly nothing embarrassing. Only watched 1/3, but with better tactics the other rider could possibly have taken it. Not as mismatched as I was expecting, tbh. Doesn't change the gender discussion though. Does anyone know what level McKinnon was riding at before the switch to female?