Is this cool?

ddraver

Monday morning, let's start with a massive fight...

Dr. Rachel McKinnon @rachelvmckinnon
First transgender woman world champion...ever.*

UCI Masters Track Cycling Women 35-44 Sprint

https://twitter.com/rachelvmckinnon/sta ... 7979173888

The tweets underneath don't do much to help the situation I feel...

ddraver

:?: :?: :?:

craigus89

This will end well.

carbonclem

I saw a re-tweet where Hatie Kopkins had suddenly got involved with cycling politics over this

salsiccia1

ddraver

You say that Sal, but it does look like every cycling news website has gone. "yeerrrr Nope," at it...

I suppose coverage of the Masters Track Worlds has never recieved top billling though...

salsiccia1

I'm broadly in agreement, my gif is a comment on the overall implications for women's sport. It's a valid point of debate though, IMO.

craigus89

To be fair people should be able to have a discussion about this without feeling like they are going to be attacked by either side because their views don't align. But that is never going to happen on the internet, and I'm not about to weigh in either.

bobmcstuff

Salsiccia1 wrote:

I'm broadly in agreement, my gif is a comment on the overall implications for women's sport. It's a valid point of debate though, IMO.

Really interesting section in The Sports Gene about sex and performance. Turns out when it comes down to it it's very complicated in the middle and the only determinant they were able to use reliably was testosterone levels.

I'd suggest reading it anyway as the whole topic turned out to be a lot more complicated than I thought it was.

slowbike

I suppose an easy question is - could every trans-woman beat every woman ... on the basis that not every man could beat every woman (hands up who would like to be able to ride as fast as the women in our Olympic Team - mines up!) - then it's not _just_ the fact that it's a trans-gender woman beating a woman.
However, it does need monitoring to ensure that women's sport isn't dominated by trans entrants

david7m

Should be a transgender class
Dave

craigus89

Slowbike wrote:

I suppose an easy question is - could every trans-woman beat every woman ... on the basis that not every man could beat every woman (hands up who would like to be able to ride as fast as the women in our Olympic Team - mines up!) - then it's not _just_ the fact that it's a trans-gender woman beating a woman.
However, it does need monitoring to ensure that women's sport isn't dominated by trans entrants

Very true. These are not my feelings, but I suspect that the outrage/concern is about the fact that people could identify as they wish and if they are questioned about their motives then society jumps on them as being intolerant. I don't think that anyone is claiming this persons motives were for that reason, but that is the worry as far as I can tell.

specialgueststar

Personally I think it's outrageous and makes a mockery of the sport. I've had these beliefs for a number of years and don't think I will ever change. Let me spell it out 35 IS TOO YOUNG FOR A MATERS CATEGORY ESPECIALLY IN THE SPRINT -- AGAINST 44 YEAR OLDS. !!! Let's do the right thing and raise the age

Pross

SpecialGuestStar wrote:

Personally I think it's outrageous and makes a mockery of the sport. I've had these beliefs for a number of years and don't think I will ever change. Let me spell it out 35 IS TOO YOUNG FOR A MATERS CATEGORY ESPECIALLY IN THE SPRINT -- AGAINST 44 YEAR OLDS. !!! Let's do the right thing and raise the age

topper_harley

Nope, he shouldn’t be cycling v the women

dabber

What a load of boll*cks.... oh, perhaps not.

fenix

Seems like a pretty hollow victory to me ? God knows how you address this kind of thing though.

chris_bass

I don't really know how the biology of it all works or what makes men on average faster and stronger than women so the rest of this is basically rubbish but i'll say it anyway!

If the woman in question is post op and has had the hormone therapy then does that take away the advantage of being a man has?

ddraver

Therein lies the debate Chris.

As with all biology the science is just not that clear cut. If it was, we'd all be Chris Froome in the Alps and Chris Hoy on the Flat...

chris_bass

I guess one way to find out would be to see if this woman raced pre op as a man and see if their times pre op were faster than post op.

iainf72

Chris Bass wrote:

I don't really know how the biology of it all works or what makes men on average faster and stronger than women so the rest of this is basically rubbish but i'll say it anyway!

If the woman in question is post op and has had the hormone therapy then does that take away the advantage of being a man has?

If she has lived 25+ years as a man, with male hornone profiles etc, then those “benefits” don’t just disappear.

I guess it depends where you land on the question of whether there are significant biological differences between male and female.

Killerclown

So that’s physically a man, ‘winning’ a women’s race. I know blokes generally don’t like getting ‘chicked’ but this takes it a whole new level

Vino'sGhost

of course its cool, she says shes a woman then shes a woman. End of.

sometimes you lot are in the dark ages.

ddraver

iainf72 wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

I don't really know how the biology of it all works or what makes men on average faster and stronger than women so the rest of this is basically rubbish but i'll say it anyway!

If the woman in question is post op and has had the hormone therapy then does that take away the advantage of being a man has?

If she has lived 25+ years as a man, with male hornone profiles etc, then those “benefits” don’t just disappear.

I guess it depends where you land on the question of whether there are significant biological differences between male and female.

I'm not an expert and this is not a simple topic so please don't take what I say as Gospel but, all the same, this...

Killerclown wrote:

So that’s physically a man, ‘winning’ a women’s race. I know blokes generally don’t like getting ‘chicked’ but this takes it a whole new level

...is wildly over simplistic.

There would be a decrease in PB's simply becaue hormone treatments would affect the level of testosterone and so reduce performance. From what I've seen, testosterone is the only clear major control on performance. However what that means is that other factors are much harder to pin down and identify. Plus, as iain says, it is not clear how long the benefits of developing from a child into a man last.

The photo really does not help the cause eh..?

Vino'sGhost

btw what is a strident feminist? is that where she strides because shes got a pair of knackers?

Vino'sGhost

and finally.......

Will womens records start falling now to chicks with Dicks? will there be any biological women record holders in 50 years?

will women just give up?

shirley_basso

This made me raise an eyebrow:

RichN95.

This is a good article covering the issues. It focusses on two trans cyclists (one of whom is McKinnon in the original story) and the other is Jillian Beardon. They used to be teammates but had a huge falling out over trans rights in sport.
McKinnon's attitude is that she should get whatever she wants and screw anyone else, while Beardon recognises that the rights of non-trans women need to be considered and is trying to help to IOC develop their understanding.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/sports/ol ... 995434001/

Vino'sGhost

I bet McKinnon will win, any debate seems to be stifled .

The trans movement is terribly damaging to women. even the girl guides now welcomes any woman biological or otherwise, any comment or dissent along the lines of recognising the needs of others alongside the trans is leads to ejection.

this includes parents who apparently have no rights to be concerned that women with big rapey cocks might be sharing sleeping and washing facilities. The world has gone mad and the losers are women.

dabber

My view, if there's a doubt, any doubt at all that this doesn't result in a level playing field then they shouldn't be allowed to compete in the women's class.

DeVlaeminck

Well she's not female in the sense that is most relevant to cycling ability, fully support her right to live as a female in ways which don't impinge on the rights and opportunities of women but transgender rights have gone too far in this case.

If transgender and intersex individuals take these sports up without some kind of testosterone blocking (or whatever the science suggests) then we would wave goodbye to female elite sport.