Is this cool?

DeVlaeminck

Jez mon wrote:

In her own words...

https://www.velonews.com/2018/10/news/q ... ete_480206

Can't help think that despite all the talk about endogenous testosterone she's a philosopher not a scientist.

Unfortunately if you decide to go through with this process, you should forfeit your right to compete at the highest level of sport.

In her answers she says her testosterone range is below average for a woman. Is she then taking some kind of testosterone suppressing treatment, has she had surgery? I thought that the bottom of the normal range for men was still well above the upper range for women and a quick google suggests that is the case but I don't claim any expertise ??

Paulie W

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Pretty certain your assumption is wrong. Certainly if she has undergone some kind of therapy to negate the advantages conferred by being biologically male then I'd have no objection to her competing. As I say though my understanding is she hasn't.

I think youre missing the point. She has to be able to evidence that she is under a testosterone level for a certain period of time. Maybe she is under that level naturally but more likely she is under because of the treatment she is undertaking as part of her transition.

I dont know whether that evidence should be sufficient...

DeVlaeminck

I don't think I'm missing the point, I may as I admitted be mistaken on a matter of fact but that is why I posed it as a question - has she been on some kind of treatment - rather than making a statement. The *point* is pretty clear though - does being/having been male confer an advantage.

I took from Rich's link that she wasn't undergoing hormone treatment and if that were the case I was puzzled as to how she could be below the average level for a female. Checking it again though it looks like she is against the testosterone requirements but she is actually complying with them . In that case as I said a couple of posts ago *if* those requirements are sufficient to level the playing field with biological females I've no issue with her competing. Whether they do level the playing field I've no idea.

slowbike

On average, males have more testosterone than females and females have more estrogen than males. In a recent study by Stephané Bermon and Pierre Yves Garnier, they tested over 2,000 IAAF world championship track and field athletes and found that 1/6 of the male athletes were in or below the female range of testosterone, so a disproportionate amount of elite males have very low testosterone. This study showed there is absolutely no relationship between testosterone in terms of performance in males. The relationship they found in women was weak and sporadic.

If that's true then perhaps testosterone isn't the right one to be measuring.

IIRC, there was a BBC documentary about boys and girls at school and gender stereotyping. The research showed that boys and girls have exactly the same physical strength until around the age of 8-10 - then boys naturally start getting stronger.

Look at the UCI recognised world records for track (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... ck_cycling) - in every directly comparable event - men are faster/go further than women (I'd love to be able to go faster than the women) - you can't say that this is because the men train harder/better than the women - look at the 4k tp (both men and women compete in that) - the British women team are the best - but still 20 seconds behind the men (AUS) - 20 seconds in a ~4 minute race is massive.
What that suggests is that a really good male competing against the best female could still win - which if you consider male/female categories as pure handicaps perhaps doesn't matter - but perhaps it's not really that fair - and certainly open to abuse. The male/female categories were based purely on gender - because its known that we develop differently. Allowing trans women to compete against men doesn't put men at a disadvantage - but the other way around arguably puts the females at a disadvantage.
A few competing will make little difference - the impact would come when trans-genders start to dominate the results in womens racing - as that will discourage women from entering the sport - why bother competing if you don't stand a chance of winning - which is why we had male/female categories ....

Vino'sGhost

shes a professor and a woman so we should all believe her. just like that woman last week trying to derail the appointment of the judge

bobmcstuff

Slowbike wrote:

On average, males have more testosterone than females and females have more estrogen than males. In a recent study by Stephané Bermon and Pierre Yves Garnier, they tested over 2,000 IAAF world championship track and field athletes and found that 1/6 of the male athletes were in or below the female range of testosterone, so a disproportionate amount of elite males have very low testosterone. This study showed there is absolutely no relationship between testosterone in terms of performance in males. The relationship they found in women was weak and sporadic.

If that's true then perhaps testosterone isn't the right one to be measuring.

Endurance training causes testosterone levels to decrease.

Something about it here: https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a2086 ... -the-link/

Vino'sGhost

the testosterone thing is a red herring. Shes got a nob shes a bloke. not much of one maybe but a bloke non the less

DeVlaeminck

Slowbike wrote:

On average, males have more testosterone than females and females have more estrogen than males. In a recent study by Stephané Bermon and Pierre Yves Garnier, they tested over 2,000 IAAF world championship track and field athletes and found that 1/6 of the male athletes were in or below the female range of testosterone, so a disproportionate amount of elite males have very low testosterone. This study showed there is absolutely no relationship between testosterone in terms of performance in males. The relationship they found in women was weak and sporadic.

If that's true then perhaps testosterone isn't the right one to be measuring.

..

From the same scientist though quoted from The Guardian talking about intersex athletes.

"“Historically the reason why we have separate male and female categories is that otherwise females would never win any medals,” Bermon added. “Testosterone is the most important factor in explaining the difference. We are talking about females competing with levels similar to males. Very often it is more than 20 or 25nmol/L. So it is very high.”

Haven't the IAAF just lowered or tried to lower the limit for women from 10 to 5. Given all that I find it hard to believe so many male athletes have such low testosterone. The natural level for men isnt just a bit higher it's typically ten times higher.

bompington

Surely, in the appropriate spirit of the whole issue, xer testosterone level is nothing to do with white-privileged lab tests but is exactly what xe says it is, and anyone who doesn't accept that is guilty of transphobic deadhormoning?

ocdupalais

I was going to say that I’m looking forward to Philippa York having a crack at veteran women’s races, but, er...

ocdupalais

What chance she could return to this place (perhaps as ‘gottheblouse’ to indicate that things have moved on?), and share her thoughts on the issue? No doubt she’s been asked by some editor somewhere to do as much.

imposter2.0

OCDuPalais wrote:

What chance she could return to this place (perhaps as ‘gottheblouse’ to indicate that things have moved on?),

Evidence - if any were needed - that things really haven't moved on...

bompington

Imposter wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

What chance she could return to this place (perhaps as ‘gottheblouse’ to indicate that things have moved on?),

Evidence - if any were needed - that things really haven't moved on...

Evidence - if it were needed - that a sense of humour is rapidly becoming seriously taboo.

dabber

So does McKinnon have monthly periods, is McKinnon's bonestructure (pelvis for instance) the same a women? Does McKinnon have a womb and all the other internal organs of a woman? I don't know the answer to this but if McKinnon doesn't then McKinnon isn't a woman. At least IMO.

jwa581

So if the argument is that testosterone levels alone are a poor marker of performance differences between males and females and the reasons for differences in performance are multifactorial, then how is it possible to ensure that a trans female competitor has not got an unfair advantage from her male genetics. What else needs testing for? Also, when did the testing for testosterone take place on these studies, as the levels will fluctuate e.g. will be lower in a cyclist post tour de France than pre. I know Chris Boardman for instance suffered form low testosterone secondary to the chronic stress of years of training towards the end of his career. He could still compete at elite level (albeit with some loss of performance - suggesting that testosterone may well be important in athletic performance!) but had to be careful due to osteoporosis. The whole thing is highly complex, and surely the rights of non trans women to compete on a level playing field have to considered.

imposter2.0

bompington wrote:

Imposter wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

What chance she could return to this place (perhaps as ‘gottheblouse’ to indicate that things have moved on?),

Evidence - if any were needed - that things really haven't moved on...

Evidence - if it were needed - that a sense of humour is rapidly becoming seriously taboo.

Humour is subjective, unfortunately..

Jez mon

Dabber wrote:

So does McKinnon have monthly periods, is McKinnon's bonestructure (pelvis for instance) the same a women? Does McKinnon have a womb and all the other internal organs of a woman? I don't know the answer to this but if McKinnon doesn't then McKinnon isn't a woman. At least IMO.

The womb and monthly period criteria would remove a sizable number of people born women from the women category...

joe_totale-2

Jez mon wrote:

Dabber wrote:

So does McKinnon have monthly periods, is McKinnon's bonestructure (pelvis for instance) the same a women? Does McKinnon have a womb and all the other internal organs of a woman? I don't know the answer to this but if McKinnon doesn't then McKinnon isn't a woman. At least IMO.

The womb and monthly period criteria would remove a sizable number of people born women from the women category...

Indeed. For example Polycystic Ovary Syndrome affects around 20% of women and one of the symptoms is irregular periods.
Also there is a hormone imbalance meaning that women with Polycystic Ovary Syndrome produce more testosterone then women without PCOS.
Shall we ban all those women from cycling?

john80

Sometimes in life just because you can do something does not mean you should. Elite sports is not an area for men to become women and then compete against women. Whilst she might have low testosterone she looks like a man, was a man and now is some form of either operated or self declared women status. It is biology at birth I am afraid in this case for me.

In the case of testosterone for women I think this is unfair on the actual women such as Caster Semenya. She was born a women, been subjected to independent verification of this and is no different to the exceptions that are people such a Usain Bolt.

Welcome to the new world where people can be what they want to be regardless of all norms. I wonder when we will come out of this rabbit hole.

Graculus

I've had a read of this thread, very interesting discussion, I'm not sure if I'm the first woman to post on it, but here goes.

My first reaction on reading this news, was to be really angry, but I'm beginning to think differently now.

I think MacKinnon looks ridiculous, and her smugness at winning just makes me think of competitive dad from the Fast Show. She won against a field of women who are a fraction of her strength and power. Big deal!

It is interesting to compare her with Philippa York, as PPs have said, who is of a much slighter build and much closer in size to the other women competitors. I wonder how much physical advantage PY would have, having previously been a man, over a woman of the same size and stature.

However, although men and women compete separately, cycling is a sport where there can also be a downside to being bigger, and different physiques can have advantages in different disciplines of the sport. There are similar problems with sport for children especially in early adolescence where there can be a considerable difference in size and strength between kids of the same age.

If you want to be really fair, then you also have to look at the case of trans men too. They are at a real disadvantage, and there is no real way that the playing field can be made level for them. I can't see this issue going away, but I quite like the idea of some sort of grading system like they use for the paralympic sport.

What does this mean for the future of elite women's sport? In the end I think not much. I am old enough to remember the Olympics during the seventies, when the Iron Curtain countries were regularly fielding women competitors who were medicated and manipulated to be as strong as men, they may have been men (they looked like men!) and yet women's sport has survived and has flourished since that time. In spite of the huge fuss about trans genderism at the moment, I am guessing that the number of trans women athletes who are going to enter top level sport is going to be tiny, far too small to swamp the millions of women who are in the world.

Outside the world of sport things are more serious I think. Most trans people just want to live their lives in peace, but there is handful of activists, often quite vicious, who are driving this debate and are seeking to silence any serious discussion. Most women I know are angry and worried about certain elements, especially the question of women only spaces, and the possible disappearance of the word woman. We are women, we are not womxn, ciswomen or (worst of all) non-trans women.

Sorry this is so long - I haven't posted here for ages, so I have made up for that by going on a bit now!

I would ask any of you who feel strongly about this issue to take part in the government consultation on the Gender Recognition Act, it still has a few days to run. We cannot be fair to be everyone in this matter, but on numbers alone it would seem crazy to let women take the biggest hit of unfairness.

https://consult.education.gov.uk/govern ... ition-act/

dave milne

Be interested to hear Pippa York's take on this.

It's a bloody mess though that's for sure

DeVlaeminck

Dabber wrote:

So does McKinnon have monthly periods, is McKinnon's bonestructure (pelvis for instance) the same a women? Does McKinnon have a womb and all the other internal organs of a woman? I don't know the answer to this but if McKinnon doesn't then McKinnon isn't a woman. At least IMO.

Surely the only bits of "being a woman" are those relevant to athletic performance - if they can be controlled so trans athletes are on a par why not let them compete. So long as it's doing no harm to anyone else my default is people should be allowed to do as they please including living as whatever gender they want.

DeVlaeminck

john80 wrote:

Sometimes in life just because you can do something does not mean you should. Elite sports is not an area for men to become women and then compete against women. Whilst she might have low testosterone she looks like a man, was a man and now is some form of either operated or self declared women status. It is biology at birth I am afraid in this case for me.

In the case of testosterone for women I think this is unfair on the actual women such as Caster Semenya. She was born a women, been subjected to independent verification of this and is no different to the exceptions that are people such a Usain Bolt.

Welcome to the new world where people can be what they want to be regardless of all norms. I wonder when we will come out of this rabbit hole.

Re Semenya I don't think we know what her biology is. I assume she is biologically intersex - if so she isn't really born a woman is she. I have sympathy for her but look at the 800m podium in Rio - without trivialising it how many would consider any of those three as women - if you are a straight man or gay woman could you possibly view them as a potential partner? Your gut instinct is it's three blokes, they look, talk and even run like men.

Vino'sGhost

i reckon she should be stoned or thrown off a building

dabber

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Dabber wrote:

So does McKinnon have monthly periods, is McKinnon's bonestructure (pelvis for instance) the same a women? Does McKinnon have a womb and all the other internal organs of a woman? I don't know the answer to this but if McKinnon doesn't then McKinnon isn't a woman. At least IMO.

Surely the only bits of "being a woman" are those relevant to athletic performance - if they can be controlled so trans athletes are on a par why not let them compete. So long as it's doing no harm to anyone else my default is people should be allowed to do as they please including living as whatever gender they want.

Was McKinnon born a a male? My understand is that McKinnon was.
Has McKinnon got a penis or has surgery been performed? It isn't clear to me what the situation is.
It does seem that McKinnon is undertaking drug treatment to manage testosterone. An artificial process.
Did McKinnon develop a musculature, in the years prior to deciding they would now call themselves a female, more akin to that of a male? Highly likely I would have thought.

So, we have a level playing field do we? Should McKinnon should be considered a woman as far as sports competition is concerned?
At best there is a lot of doubt about that. If there's any doubt at all, women competitors should not be potentially disadvantaged so that McKinnon's human rights aren't breached.
Btw, I've no problem by McKinnon living as what ever sex McKinnon wants.

It seems to me the answer is to introduce a new class of "sex category" in sport that like attributed athletes could compete against each other.

Although I've piped up here with my views I really don't care much about it. It doesn't affect me, I'm not a woman and I don't have a daughter..... but if I was a competing woman sportswomen I think I'd have a very strong view about it.

Vino'sGhost

Dabber wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Dabber wrote:

So does McKinnon have monthly periods, is McKinnon's bonestructure (pelvis for instance) the same a women? Does McKinnon have a womb and all the other internal organs of a woman? I don't know the answer to this but if McKinnon doesn't then McKinnon isn't a woman. At least IMO.

Surely the only bits of "being a woman" are those relevant to athletic performance - if they can be controlled so trans athletes are on a par why not let them compete. So long as it's doing no harm to anyone else my default is people should be allowed to do as they please including living as whatever gender they want.

Was McKinnon born a a male? My understand is that McKinnon was.
Has McKinnon got a penis or has surgery been performed? It isn't clear to me what the situation is.
It does seem that McKinnon is undertaking drug treatment to manage testosterone. An artificial process.
Did McKinnon develop a musculature, in the years prior to deciding they would now call themselves a female, more akin to that of a male? Highly likely I would have thought.

So, we have a level playing field do we? Should McKinnon should be considered a woman as far as sports competition is concerned?
At best there is a lot of doubt about that. If there's any doubt at all, women competitors should not be potentially disadvantaged so that McKinnon's human rights aren't breached.
Btw, I've no problem by McKinnon living as what ever sex McKinnon wants.

It seems to me the answer is to introduce a new class of "sex category" in sport that like attributed athletes could compete against each other.

Although I've piped up here with my views I really don't care much about it. It doesn't affect me, I'm not a woman and I don't have a daughter..... but if I was a competing woman sportswomen I think I'd have a very strong view about it.

Nicely put. I have three daughters and i think its a shame that their ability to share competative sport with other girls / women is distorted this way. Not even to mention the safe guarding issues. They have the same view.

inseine

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Dabber wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Dabber wrote:

So does McKinnon have monthly periods, is McKinnon's bonestructure (pelvis for instance) the same a women? Does McKinnon have a womb and all the other internal organs of a woman? I don't know the answer to this but if McKinnon doesn't then McKinnon isn't a woman. At least IMO.

Surely the only bits of "being a woman" are those relevant to athletic performance - if they can be controlled so trans athletes are on a par why not let them compete. So long as it's doing no harm to anyone else my default is people should be allowed to do as they please including living as whatever gender they want.

Was McKinnon born a a male? My understand is that McKinnon was.
Has McKinnon got a penis or has surgery been performed? It isn't clear to me what the situation is.
It does seem that McKinnon is undertaking drug treatment to manage testosterone. An artificial process.
Did McKinnon develop a musculature, in the years prior to deciding they would now call themselves a female, more akin to that of a male? Highly likely I would have thought.

So, we have a level playing field do we? Should McKinnon should be considered a woman as far as sports competition is concerned?
At best there is a lot of doubt about that. If there's any doubt at all, women competitors should not be potentially disadvantaged so that McKinnon's human rights aren't breached.
Btw, I've no problem by McKinnon living as what ever sex McKinnon wants.

It seems to me the answer is to introduce a new class of "sex category" in sport that like attributed athletes could compete against each other.

Although I've piped up here with my views I really don't care much about it. It doesn't affect me, I'm not a woman and I don't have a daughter..... but if I was a competing woman sportswomen I think I'd have a very strong view about it.

Nicely put. I have three daughters and i think its a shame that their ability to share competative sport with other girls / women is distorted this way. Not even to mention the safe guarding issues. They have the same view.

What happened to ‘of course its cool, she says shes a woman then shes a woman. End of’ ?

confused@BR

I became a "feminist" when my eldest daughter was born in JAN 1973, probably before "feminist" was a word; when I realised what a sh@ deal women generally get in this world. Things have changed in the past forty-odd years, many for the better but the male sense of entitlement and prerogative is deeply set in our society.
Oddly enough this is what I am taking from the behaviour of our doctor friend. Yes, you are taking the tablets and wearing the dress but sisterhood?
One of the ways an underclass of any description can survive and prosper is solidarity, it has worked for countless over the ages, 'e pluribus unum'. When entryists with a disruptive agenda arrive, count the spoons!

orraloon

If I self-declare as a cat, does that mean that I can cr@p in my neighbour's' flowerbeds with impunity?

shipley

So pleased.....I've just found out that my Honda Fireblade is identifying as a Trek Madone SLR so I have entered next years Giro. Fairs fair after all.