Is this cool?

shipley

It’s not hard to resolve this.....

.”what we’re you born as ? ...ok so that’s the category you compete in. You don’t like it or agree with it ?

That’s a shame, best you don’t compete then. Next person please.....”

Vino'sGhost

well i hope you've all commented on the governments consultation on this issue.

The people driving this agenda are massively and disproportionally influential and yet they have no real world experience. Eg Aimee Challenor standing at 20 for the deputy leadership of the green party before being suspended for employing her father as an election agent after he'd been charged with raping and torturing a 10 year old child in the attic of the family home.

Aimee apparently had no idea that was going on or that her father had been charged.

she moved on to the libdems where no doubt her qualities as a promoter of trans rights are not at odds with any safeguarding issues.

The Girl guides looked to Stonewall for advice in developing their policies. Aimee sits on Stonewalls Trans advisory group


https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... n-act-2004

sgt.pepper

Chris Bass wrote:

I don't really know how the biology of it all works or what makes men on average faster and stronger than women so the rest of this is basically rubbish but i'll say it anyway!

If the woman in question is post op and has had the hormone therapy then does that take away the advantage of being a man has?

I think in strength related sports the majority of the advantage comes from having grown up with a male hormone profile through the key developmental years. There was another controversy recently when a successful former male weightlifter started competing against the women.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/04/11/spor ... index.html

I'm all for tolerance and people being happy, but this really doesn't seem fair.

inseine

Shipley wrote:

It’s not hard to resolve this.....

.”what we’re you born as ? ...ok so that’s the category you compete in. You don’t like it or agree with it ?

That’s a shame, best you don’t compete then. Next person please.....”

How would this work with para athletes not born with their disability?

imposter2.0

inseine wrote:

Shipley wrote:

It’s not hard to resolve this.....

.”what we’re you born as ? ...ok so that’s the category you compete in. You don’t like it or agree with it ?

That’s a shame, best you don’t compete then. Next person please.....”

How would this work with para athletes not born with their disability?

That would be an entirely different matter, completely unrelated to this one, would it not..?

inseine

Imposter wrote:

inseine wrote:

Shipley wrote:

It’s not hard to resolve this.....

.”what we’re you born as ? ...ok so that’s the category you compete in. You don’t like it or agree with it ?

That’s a shame, best you don’t compete then. Next person please.....”

How would this work with para athletes not born with their disability?

That would be an entirely different matter, completely unrelated to this one, would it not..?

Possibly, I was just thinking about the point that 'you are who you are' , and that can never change.

imposter2.0

inseine wrote:

Possibly, I was just thinking about the point that 'you are who you are' , and that can never change.

Para athletes are classified according to the disability they present with. Their previous status as able-bodied (or otherwise) is not relevant.

ddraver

I think that has to be the way for para-athletes, however I see Inseine's point too. It's a variation on the 'should able-bodied people be able to compete in wheelchair sports' question

inseine

Imposter wrote:

inseine wrote:

Possibly, I was just thinking about the point that 'you are who you are' , and that can never change.

Para athletes are classified according to the disability they present with. Their previous status as able-bodied (or otherwise) is not relevant.

It is a little bit. Don't they calculate the length of running blades based on the persons assumed height or real height pre disability (if that's the case)?

timothyw

The thing is, I might be missing some nuance of the argument, but McKinnon seems to be saying that, because she can legally define herself as female, that should be enough to compete against other women.

This despite the fact that from what I have read, physically she is male - hasn't had any surgery, isn't taking any hormones etc - I could have missed something here, as obviously it's a fairly private matter (or at least, would be normally...)

This rather ignores the fact that women's sport is in essence a handicap category - in the vast majority of sports, women are not able to compete with men, because men tend to be much bigger, stronger, faster etc etc.

Now certainly, she'd have a point on the human rights thing if she was being denied the opportunity to compete in any category - but if the women's categories are going to retain any credibility then there has to be a line somewhere - I'd suggest somewhere short of McKinnon.

Really, the way forward is to stop defining the 'mens' categories of sport as being exclusively for men - I can understand someone like McKinnon would be uncomfortable competing as a man - but competing against 'cisgendered' women definitely doesn't seem cool.

craigus89

TimothyW wrote:

Now certainly, she'd have a point on the human rights thing if she was being denied the opportunity to compete in any category - but if the women's categories are going to retain any credibility then there has to be a line somewhere - I'd suggest somewhere short of McKinnon.

Is being denied access to competing in elite level sports an impingement on human rights? I don't know but that seems like a stretch from how I understand it.

The counter that would be made to my point I presume would be the middle eastern women's football teams who aren't allowed to play, but that seems like a bad comparison to make when there is a 'choice' involved.

bompington

Imposter wrote:

inseine wrote:

Possibly, I was just thinking about the point that 'you are who you are' , and that can never change.

Para athletes are classified according to the disability they present with. Their previous status as able-bodied (or otherwise) is not relevant.

So there's a simple solution then: just as paralympic sports have their different categories, you should be able to compete in any one of the 72 gender categories (or however many there are these days). "Congratulations to Sam on xer bronze medal in the Anisogender 100m!"

Except, of course, because the world has gone stark raving mad, that doesn't deal with the reality-bending requirement (about to become actual law, with actual punishment for anyone who dares to disagree) that you can declare yourself to be whatever gender you want.

Personally I'm looking forward to cleaning up in the under-8 category at the local junior park run now that I'm identifying as a toddler.

Vino'sGhost

I think Elite sport should be just that, elite. By its very nature not everyone can compete. otherwise its rounders.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

I've not read the specifics on this case, but the general principal doesn't sit well with me, a trans-gender either competes with other trans-genders or they compete in the male/female category depending their birth gender.

A tentative not cool from me.

RichN95.

My rather rough and ready solution is to get away with the formal classifications of men and women and have 'Open' and 'Restricted' (for want of a better word) where those competing in the restricted have to meet certain gender criteria. It recognises that gender is fluid rather than binary and sets cut off point - no different to the lightweight cut off point in rowing.

Furthermore it would allow women, if they so please, to compete alongside men.

StillGoing

Elephant in the room. Born with a c**k, its a male. Simple. Having it cut off and ramming a load of chemicals in your body to suppress hair growth and grow b00bs only makes you a woman in the eyes of the foolish. If people want to redefine themselves, then have a category for them. But don't call them women or men just because that's what they want to be. It creates a world full of problems such as the rapist that self defined as a woman to get incarcerated in a female prison and attack two inmates. I accept that there are some people that have serious issues, but it does not make them the opposite sex just by having surgery and a certificate. I blame the East Germans for all this when they were getting men to compete in the women's events in the Olympics.

twotoebenny

My fairly basic level of scientific understanding is if you have two x chromosomes you are female, and if you have one x and one y you are male. Simples

RichN95.

TwoToeBenny wrote:

My fairly basic level of scientific understanding is if you have two x chromosomes you are female, and if you have one x and one y you are male. Simples

It's not that simple though. Some people have extra chromosones. There's a whole chapter about this in The Sports Gene by David Epstein. It's a genuinely complex subject.

bobmcstuff

RichN95 wrote:

TwoToeBenny wrote:

My fairly basic level of scientific understanding is if you have two x chromosomes you are female, and if you have one x and one y you are male. Simples

It's not that simple though. Some people have extra chromosones. There's a whole chapter about this in The Sports Gene by David Epstein. It's a genuinely complex subject.

It is, I referred to that book earlier, I genuinely didn't realise how complicated it actually was when you get right to the line. I'd really recommend reading it.

With Castor Semenya they ended up doing it on testosterone levels because that's the only thing they can be 100% sure on.

iainf72

There is a rather interesting Waking Up podcast where Sam Harris covers a bit of this type of ground

https://samharris.org/podcasts/135-navi ... ex-gender/

The whole sex / gender thing is a lot more complicated than it might appear.

A lot of the discussion is about hormones and their effect on people which is quite fascinating (and a bit icky)

Vino'sGhost

the issue is actually black and white as far as the trans issue is concerned. If you identify as a woman you are a woman. There is no qualifying, no gradations you are a woman and wo betide anyone who has alternative views or opinions. Its a dangerous place.

heres a commentary i read on line.

The people driving this agenda are massively and disproportionally influential and yet they have no real world experience. Eg Aimee Challenor standing at 20 for the deputy leadership of the green party before being suspended for employing her father as an election agent after he'd been charged with raping and torturing a 10 year old child in the attic of the family home.

Aimee apparently had no idea that was going on or that her father had been charged.

she moved on to the libdems where no doubt her qualities as a promoter of trans rights are not at odds with any safeguarding issues.

The Girl guides looked to Stonewall for advice in developing their policies. Aimee sits on Stonewalls Trans advisory group.
Stonewall wrote the girl guides policy on trans.

Parents will not be told if there is a trans person sharing the sleeping or toilet facilities of their daughters because the trans person IS a girl or a woman. There is no discussion and if someone is concerned about the rights of their daughters to a safe and respectful place for their daughters they are shown the door. Trans rights and feeling are a trump card.

slowbike

Vino'sGhost wrote:

The Girl guides looked to Stonewall for advice in developing their policies. Aimee sits on Stonewalls Trans advisory group.
Stonewall wrote the girl guides policy on trans.

Parents will not be told if there is a trans person sharing the sleeping or toilet facilities of their daughters because the trans person IS a girl or a woman. There is no discussion and if someone is concerned about the rights of their daughters to a safe and respectful place for their daughters they are shown the door. Trans rights and feeling are a trump card.

It's not about sexuality though is it... a person can identify how they like and should (largely) be expected to be treated as such. If a teenage male feels more comfortable being a female and wants to live like that then there shouldn't be a major issue with it. Obviously, those in charge of minors should know about it and be cautious in how they approach it because there are obviously those who try to exploit it - as are in all walks of life.
But in sport, where we segregate according to gender purely because males tend to be faster/stronger than females it seems a little unfair to naturally born females when a bloke comes in and wins.

DeVlaeminck

Yes womens sport is separate from men's because of a physical/biological difference just as amputees and other para sport categories are based on disadvantage conferred by physical differences. A trans woman (born a man) competing against women without any therapy to remove that advantage or an intersex athlete with high testosterone levels competing against women makes as much sense as me identifying as an amputee or as a blind person and competing in sports reserved for athletes with those disabilities.

If we have have to redefine what a woman is for the purposes of sport based on biology then that should happen because that is the reason womens sport exists in the first place.

salsiccia1

My assumption is that most (all?) of us posting on this thread are male and born as such. I'd be interested to hear the views of sportswomen and find out how they feel about transgender competitors.

I sympathise with the situation transgender people find themselves in, I can't imagine the difficulties that life throws up for them but I can't help but think that expecting to be able to act and be treated the same as 'natural-born' women (for want of a better phrase) is unreasonable when it comes to gender-defined activities such as sport. That's probably not fair on them but it's also not fair on women who don't feel there's a level playing field.

CitizenLee

Salsiccia1 wrote:

My assumption is that most (all?) of us posting on this thread are male and born as such. I'd be interested to hear the views of sportswomen and find out how they feel about transgender competitors.

I can identify as a women and answer if you like? That's all we now need to do to qualify as one right?

Paulie W

What is confusing me in the coverage of and reaction to this story is the suggestion that McKinnon has just rocked up and said I'm a woman and been allowed to race. Clearly there are a set of regulations about hormone levels etc. which the athletes need to conform to and I would assume she has done so.

Now whether those rules are "fair" or are based on sufficient evidence to be appropriate is another matter. As others have pointed out, this is not so simple as it might first appear and there are very few research studies that even begin to address the issues at the heart of this matter. I've seen some very small scale studies which suggest that athletes transitioning from male to female perform no better at their age grade post-transition. There is more anecdotal evidence that post-transition transgender athletes are disadvantaged because of the rules than benefit but the stories that tend to make the news are of "oversized" trans females rolling over the opposition in Australian Rules or Wrestling. I suspect that this is not the beginning of the end of days for women's sport not least because you have to have to be a remarkable person to want to put your head above the parapet like McKinnon has and the idea, that some seem to have, that mediocre male athletes will be rushing to transition is ridiculous for all kinds of reasons.

Killerclown

How much effort does a ‘trans’ athlete actually have to make though? Is it enough to simply ‘identify as a woman’ in order to be able to compete, or do you have to go for the whole cut and tuck?

DeVlaeminck

Paulie W wrote:

What is confusing me in the coverage of and reaction to this story is the suggestion that McKinnon has just rocked up and said I'm a woman and been allowed to race. Clearly there are a set of regulations about hormone levels etc. which the athletes need to conform to and I would assume she has done so.

s.

Pretty certain your assumption is wrong. Certainly if she has undergone some kind of therapy to negate the advantages conferred by being biologically male then I'd have no objection to her competing. As I say though my understanding is she hasn't.

Jez mon

In her own words...

https://www.velonews.com/2018/10/news/q ... ete_480206

Can't help think that despite all the talk about endogenous testosterone she's a philosopher not a scientist.

Unfortunately if you decide to go through with this process, you should forfeit your right to compete at the highest level of sport.

imposter2.0

Jez mon wrote:

Can't help think that despite all the talk about endogenous testosterone she's a philosopher not a scientist.

She teaches philosophy and ethics - I would probably focus less on the philosophy and more on the ethics in this particular case...

Jez mon wrote:

Unfortunately if you decide to go through with this process, you should forfeit your right to compete at the highest level of sport.

I'm inclined to agree, unless separate, multiple classifications/categories (similar to para sport) can be established.