Boris Johnson's Burkha Comments
Comments
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Rick Chasey wrote:Not comfortable with a woman in a niqab?
And then you go on to say the govt needs to grow some balls?
Ahahaha ok mate.
Thought I would get a smarter response than that... :roll:0 -
dstev55 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Yeah so forcing any dress on or off anyone is sh!t.
But it works both ways.
Just let people wear wtf they want to and let them do it in peace.
That doesn't exactly work in practice though does it?
For example I am a store manager in a supermarket and I am not comfortable with people entering my shop with a full face covering. Whether that be a Niqab, a motorcycle helmet, a balaclava, whatever. If it was a motorcycle helmet we'd ask the customer to remove it, if it was a balaclava we'd probably hand over the cash. A Niqab? Not a lot we can do is there? And in the interests of security and safety of my staff, I think it needs to be addressed. In fact, in the interests of UK security I think the government need to grow a pair and follow the Scandinavian way.
As for Boris's comments? All a bit childish really isn't it?
Can I ask if robbers hiding their identity with a Niqab is a serious issue in retail? if so are there stats that Boris should be using to support his argument0 -
dstev55 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Not comfortable with a woman in a niqab?
And then you go on to say the govt needs to grow some balls?
Ahahaha ok mate.
Thought I would get a smarter response than that... :roll:
Keeping fighting the good fight.
Keep that bog roll close to hand.0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Yeah so forcing any dress on or off anyone is sh!t.
But it works both ways.
Just let people wear wtf they want to and let them do it in peace.
That doesn't exactly work in practice though does it?
For example I am a store manager in a supermarket and I am not comfortable with people entering my shop with a full face covering. Whether that be a Niqab, a motorcycle helmet, a balaclava, whatever. If it was a motorcycle helmet we'd ask the customer to remove it, if it was a balaclava we'd probably hand over the cash. A Niqab? Not a lot we can do is there? And in the interests of security and safety of my staff, I think it needs to be addressed. In fact, in the interests of UK security I think the government need to grow a pair and follow the Scandinavian way.
As for Boris's comments? All a bit childish really isn't it?
Can I ask if robbers hiding their identity with a Niqab is a serious issue in retail? if so are there stats that Boris should be using to support his argument
About 6 months ago I had a lady wearing a full length Niqab who was caught stealing about £100 worth of cashew nuts in packets. She had made a device that sat inside her Niqab that she hung bags off that she could put nuts inside. If we didn't have a store detective on duty at the time I think it is very unlikely she would have ever been caught. She wasn't even muslim by the way.
Anyway, in all honesty, I didn't state what I did because of any fear for shoplifting or robberies, I just think it is my right and my staff's right to be able to see who we are serving. Like I say we will not serve someone with a helmet on. What's different?0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Not comfortable with a woman in a niqab?
And then you go on to say the govt needs to grow some balls?
Ahahaha ok mate.
Thought I would get a smarter response than that... :roll:
Keeping fighting the good fight.
Keep that bog roll close to hand.
Ok then.0 -
Clean up in isle 5, a women in religious dress walked in and I shat my pants :roll:.
Seriously, man up.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Clean up in isle 5, a women in religious dress walked in and I shat my pants :roll:.
Seriously, man up.
Ok then.0 -
Can't see any relevance. What's the above story got to do with anyone covering their face?, Could have been any woman (or man) or squirrel hiding nuts in their clothes?dstev55 wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Yeah so forcing any dress on or off anyone is sh!t.
But it works both ways.
Just let people wear wtf they want to and let them do it in peace.
That doesn't exactly work in practice though does it?
For example I am a store manager in a supermarket and I am not comfortable with people entering my shop with a full face covering. Whether that be a Niqab, a motorcycle helmet, a balaclava, whatever. If it was a motorcycle helmet we'd ask the customer to remove it, if it was a balaclava we'd probably hand over the cash. A Niqab? Not a lot we can do is there? And in the interests of security and safety of my staff, I think it needs to be addressed. In fact, in the interests of UK security I think the government need to grow a pair and follow the Scandinavian way.
As for Boris's comments? All a bit childish really isn't it?
Can I ask if robbers hiding their identity with a Niqab is a serious issue in retail? if so are there stats that Boris should be using to support his argument
About 6 months ago I had a lady wearing a full length Niqab who was caught stealing about £100 worth of cashew nuts in packets. She had made a device that sat inside her Niqab that she hung bags off that she could put nuts inside. If we didn't have a store detective on duty at the time I think it is very unlikely she would have ever been caught. She wasn't even muslim by the way.
Anyway, in all honesty, I didn't state what I did because of any fear for shoplifting or robberies, I just think it is my right and my staff's right to be able to see who we are serving. Like I say we will not serve someone with a helmet on. What's different?All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0 -
bianchimoon wrote:
Can't see any relevance. What's the above story got to do with anyone covering their face?, Could have been any woman (or man) or squirrel hiding nuts in their clothes?dstev55 wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Yeah so forcing any dress on or off anyone is sh!t.
But it works both ways.
Just let people wear wtf they want to and let them do it in peace.
That doesn't exactly work in practice though does it?
For example I am a store manager in a supermarket and I am not comfortable with people entering my shop with a full face covering. Whether that be a Niqab, a motorcycle helmet, a balaclava, whatever. If it was a motorcycle helmet we'd ask the customer to remove it, if it was a balaclava we'd probably hand over the cash. A Niqab? Not a lot we can do is there? And in the interests of security and safety of my staff, I think it needs to be addressed. In fact, in the interests of UK security I think the government need to grow a pair and follow the Scandinavian way.
As for Boris's comments? All a bit childish really isn't it?
Can I ask if robbers hiding their identity with a Niqab is a serious issue in retail? if so are there stats that Boris should be using to support his argument
About 6 months ago I had a lady wearing a full length Niqab who was caught stealing about £100 worth of cashew nuts in packets. She had made a device that sat inside her Niqab that she hung bags off that she could put nuts inside. If we didn't have a store detective on duty at the time I think it is very unlikely she would have ever been caught. She wasn't even muslim by the way.
Anyway, in all honesty, I didn't state what I did because of any fear for shoplifting or robberies, I just think it is my right and my staff's right to be able to see who we are serving. Like I say we will not serve someone with a helmet on. What's different?
You're right, there isn't a lot. As I stated, I didn't say what I originally said because of fear of shoplifting or robberies. However I was responding to a comment, hence the story.0 -
dstev55 wrote:bianchimoon wrote:
Can't see any relevance. What's the above story got to do with anyone covering their face?, Could have been any woman (or man) or squirrel hiding nuts in their clothes?dstev55 wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Yeah so forcing any dress on or off anyone is sh!t.
But it works both ways.
Just let people wear wtf they want to and let them do it in peace.
That doesn't exactly work in practice though does it?
For example I am a store manager in a supermarket and I am not comfortable with people entering my shop with a full face covering. Whether that be a Niqab, a motorcycle helmet, a balaclava, whatever. If it was a motorcycle helmet we'd ask the customer to remove it, if it was a balaclava we'd probably hand over the cash. A Niqab? Not a lot we can do is there? And in the interests of security and safety of my staff, I think it needs to be addressed. In fact, in the interests of UK security I think the government need to grow a pair and follow the Scandinavian way.
As for Boris's comments? All a bit childish really isn't it?
Can I ask if robbers hiding their identity with a Niqab is a serious issue in retail? if so are there stats that Boris should be using to support his argument
About 6 months ago I had a lady wearing a full length Niqab who was caught stealing about £100 worth of cashew nuts in packets. She had made a device that sat inside her Niqab that she hung bags off that she could put nuts inside. If we didn't have a store detective on duty at the time I think it is very unlikely she would have ever been caught. She wasn't even muslim by the way.
Anyway, in all honesty, I didn't state what I did because of any fear for shoplifting or robberies, I just think it is my right and my staff's right to be able to see who we are serving. Like I say we will not serve someone with a helmet on. What's different?
You're right, there isn't a lot. As I stated, I didn't say what I originally said because of fear of shoplifting or robberies. However I was responding to a comment, hence the story.
If not robbery what are these women going to to that causes you to fear for the safety and security of your staff?0 -
Look, I don't fear them, I just believe that in public in the UK, you should be showing your face. I think the fact that certain people don't does have implications to UK security.
I think I've made my feelings pretty clear on the subject now, obviously many of you don't agree which is absolutely fine but I'll be saying no more on the subject.0 -
dstev55 wrote:
For example I am a store manager in a supermarket and I am not comfortable with people entering my shop with a full face covering. Whether that be a Niqab, a motorcycle helmet, a balaclava, whatever. If it was a motorcycle helmet we'd ask the customer to remove it, if it was a balaclava we'd probably hand over the cash. A Niqab? Not a lot we can do is there? And in the interests of security and safety of my staff, I think it needs to be addressed. In fact, in the interests of UK security I think the government need to grow a pair and follow the Scandinavian way.
As for Boris's comments? All a bit childish really isn't it?
"In the interests of security" is exactly what Trump would say.
Why do you have a problem with niqab wearer? What about sunglasses when you can't see their eyes?
Yes, Boris is childish and dumbs us down.0 -
dstev55 wrote:Look, I don't fear them, I just believe that in public in the UK, you should be showing your face. I think the fact that certain people don't does have implications to UK security.
I think I've made my feelings pretty clear on the subject now, obviously many of you don't agree which is absolutely fine but I'll be saying no more on the subject.
It is an embarrassing position to hold, I agree.
I'd avoid masquerade balls too.
And operating theatres...
Probably side step American football too, and ice hockey. etc
FWIW , Johnson has got the bank robber inversely wrong, no?
The eyes are the one thing the robber does cover!0 -
Isn't this the reason why things like brexit and trump were voted in, because those to dared to voice their opinions on foreigners, racism, social divide etc were shut down and ridiculed?
Holding an opinion that a burkha or headdress isn't something you particularly like is not illegal and laughing at that person for admitting it doesn't really help. A bit of educated discussion rather than self righteous ridicule may go a bit further.0 -
A valid point, but in practice having a rational discussion/debate with a person with an irrational fear/prejudice will as history as shown prove futile. Can you really imagine sitting down with Tommy Robinson or Steve Bannon and coming to an agreement on the subject of what rational people see as clothing and what some as a terrorist uniform?Shirley Basso wrote:Isn't this the reason why things like brexit and trump were voted in, because those to dared to voice their opinions on foreigners, racism, social divide etc were shut down and ridiculed?
Holding an opinion that a burkha or headdress isn't something you particularly like is not illegal and laughing at that person for admitting it doesn't really help. A bit of educated discussion rather than self righteous ridicule may go a bit further.All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0 -
I'm mostly talking about Rick's (sorry, mate) comments to every time someone dares voice their opinion. It comes across as some holier than thou ridicule which just stifles the discussion and likely dissuades others from engaging in the debate. I'm pretty sure this was the case more broadly when Brexit, Trump, UKIP, BNP and other parties gained momentum, as people who dared have a discussion were branded a racist and that was that.
It doesn't matter so much if it what someone says is right, wrong or totally ill thought out, so long as it's not totally racist and entrenched. It's important that people are comfortable to express their views which are listened to and where necessary, educated and corrected.
I do enjoy following these types of discussion about divisive issues as I know that I have a great deal to learn about other cultures and importantly how these issues affect the British (all ethnicities) public. And this is in spite of having lived and travelled in conservative Muslim countries (and worked at an Islamic company!)0 -
Shirley Basso wrote:I'm mostly talking about Rick's (sorry, mate) comments to every time someone dares voice their opinion. It comes across as some holier than thou ridicule which just stifles the discussion and likely dissuades others from engaging in the debate.
I always picture him as Rick from The Young Ones.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
bianchimoon wrote:A valid point, but in practice having a rational discussion/debate with a person with an irrational fear/prejudice will as history as shown prove futile. Can you really imagine sitting down with Tommy Robinson...
Mo Ansar did just that with him which resulted in him abandoning the english defence league.0 -
I suspect there's a lot more to the story than just his meeting and time with Mo Ansar?TheBigBean wrote:bianchimoon wrote:A valid point, but in practice having a rational discussion/debate with a person with an irrational fear/prejudice will as history as shown prove futile. Can you really imagine sitting down with Tommy Robinson...
Mo Ansar did just that with him which resulted in him abandoning the english defence league.All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0 -
bianchimoon wrote:
I suspect there's a lot more to the story than just his meeting and time with Mo Ansar?TheBigBean wrote:bianchimoon wrote:A valid point, but in practice having a rational discussion/debate with a person with an irrational fear/prejudice will as history as shown prove futile. Can you really imagine sitting down with Tommy Robinson...
Mo Ansar did just that with him which resulted in him abandoning the english defence league.
It took 18 months and involved many others, but it started by sitting down and having a conversation. I think Mo Ansar invited him to dinner with his family. Whilst I don't think this would work for everyone, I found it odd that you singled out the one person for whom it had been vaguely successful.0 -
Shirley Basso wrote:Isn't this the reason why things like brexit and trump were voted in, because those to dared to voice their opinions on foreigners, racism, social divide etc were shut down and ridiculed?
Holding an opinion that a burkha or headdress isn't something you particularly like is not illegal and laughing at that person for admitting it doesn't really help. A bit of educated discussion rather than self righteous ridicule may go a bit further.
I think there is a myth that people don’t discuss foreigners or racism. It’s all anyone ever seems to go on about.
I think that the success of the far right in Europe shows that latent racism is never that far from the surface and faced with poor prospect (as a result of GFC) people look to blame others.
It’s not because racist views weren’t discussed. Au contraire, they were always there, but people never made the case for the advantages of multiculturalism because, for their supporters, the evidence was so overwhelming. Economic growth in ‘00s kept the murmurs about brown people and foreign talk on the phone at the periphery as people mind less when they have good prospects.
When they don’t, it becomes more angry.
But I maintain that people who are scared of women in religious attire need to get a grip. As do people who think the solution to their lack of prospects is to kick out foreigners or treat them as inferior.
You may feel a lot of things are sh!t, but having a go at foreign or racial minorities isn’t gonna solve it.
Just because more than a few people think it, doesn’t make it an acceptable position to take per se. Anxieties about multiculturalism is just another term for xenophobia (quite literally). People need to recognise that.
It might help them realise that their anxieties aren’t all that beneficial. We know racism is bad, so people who are racist don’t like being called it, because then their position is bad.
But it IS bad, so why shouldn’t they know it?0 -
Hmm, perhaps it's because I don't agree it's been vaguely successful and still consider him a far right thug.TheBigBean wrote:bianchimoon wrote:
I suspect there's a lot more to the story than just his meeting and time with Mo Ansar?TheBigBean wrote:bianchimoon wrote:A valid point, but in practice having a rational discussion/debate with a person with an irrational fear/prejudice will as history as shown prove futile. Can you really imagine sitting down with Tommy Robinson...
Mo Ansar did just that with him which resulted in him abandoning the english defence league.
It took 18 months and involved many others, but it started by sitting down and having a conversation. I think Mo Ansar invited him to dinner with his family. Whilst I don't think this would work for everyone, I found it odd that you singled out the one person for whom it had been vaguely successful.
Nothing I've seen or read suggests otherwise to me.All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0 -
I think this is the point that troubles a lot of people, they fear any petty criminal, male or female, can cover themselves up and masquerade as a muslim woman. Telling these people to man up isn't helpful, how do you know if they have a weapon or not? If it's unacceptable to tell a woman to remove a veil in certain circumstances is it ok to tell a bloke to remove his crash helmet? What about "no shirt no service" policies?bianchimoon wrote:
Can't see any relevance. What's the above story got to do with anyone covering their face?, Could have been any woman (or man) or squirrel hiding nuts in their clothes?dstev55 wrote:... lady wearing a full length Niqab who was caught stealing about £100 worth of cashew nuts in packets. ... She wasn't even muslim by the way.
I don't think the burkha or niqab should be banned, I think the comments from Boris were ridiculous. But, I can understand where some of the fear comes from.0 -
Interesting comments Rick and of course, entrenched racism shouldn't be tolerated at all, nor should someone be 'afraid' of a woman in relgious attire.
That said, Xenophobia is not a crime and probably comes from different upbringings and parenting and in any case, if someone is willing to admit that certain aspects of religion make them feel uneasy, I still think that this should be meet with education not ridicule.0 -
What kind of weapon would they hide under a veil? Or do you mean under their long dress...in which case we are back to nuns.Veronese68 wrote:Telling these people to man up isn't helpful, how do you know if they have a weapon or not?0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:
Just because more than a few people think it, doesn’t make it an acceptable position to take per se. Anxieties about multiculturalism is just another term for xenophobia (quite literally). People need to recognise that.
It might help them realise that their anxieties aren’t all that beneficial. We know racism is bad, so people who are racist don’t like being called it, because then their position is bad.
But it IS bad, so why shouldn’t they know it?
It isn't racist to think that the niqab and burqa represent a regressive and misogynistic form of Islam, I can easily find plenty of muslims who don't have white skin just to cover both bases for you who argue the same thing.
Large parts of the left have become apologists for an extreme right wing ideology because they have given up on economic inequality and focused on some simplistic form of identity politics.
Look at the position of women in any community where the burqa and niqab are common - that's all you have to do to realise they are something to be opposed. The point the guy made about motorcyclists removing helmets in his store does indicate that we make exceptions for religion - they get a free pass for things that would be rightly condemned otherwise.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
i thought his comments made a serious point whilst poking a bit of fun at the same time.
I honestly dont know what the fuss is, this isnt racism, and people poke fun at religion all the time with no come back apart from of course the muslims. Theyre oppressed and victims and deserve special treatment. (not)0 -
Not many wear the veil without the long dress. Yes, you could include nuns and I probably should have done. Although you can see a nun's face so you can usually tell if it's a bloke.Hamish McTavish wrote:
What kind of weapon would they hide under a veil? Or do you mean under their long dress...in which case we are back to nuns.Veronese68 wrote:Telling these people to man up isn't helpful, how do you know if they have a weapon or not?0 -
DeVlaeminck wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:
Just because more than a few people think it, doesn’t make it an acceptable position to take per se. Anxieties about multiculturalism is just another term for xenophobia (quite literally). People need to recognise that.
It might help them realise that their anxieties aren’t all that beneficial. We know racism is bad, so people who are racist don’t like being called it, because then their position is bad.
But it IS bad, so why shouldn’t they know it?
It isn't racist to think that the niqab and burqa represent a regressive and misogynistic form of Islam, I can easily find plenty of muslims who don't have white skin just to cover both bases for you who argue the same thing.
Large parts of the left have become apologists for an extreme right wing ideology because they have given up on economic inequality and focused on some simplistic form of identity politics.
Look at the position of women in any community where the burqa and niqab are common - that's all you have to do to realise they are something to be opposed. The point the guy made about motorcyclists removing helmets in his store does indicate that we make exceptions for religion - they get a free pass for things that would be rightly condemned otherwise.
people are asked to remove helmets and balaclavas because there is a history of people using them to hide their identity when robbing the premises. He clearly stated that he wanted to stop muslim women covering up in his shop for the safety and security of his staff.
I really don't give a sh1t what people wear and am happy for their to be an open discussion about it so long as they do so in an unoffensive manner0 -
Good letter from Rowan Atkinson in today's Times about the matter.0
