Boris Johnson's Burkha Comments

laurentian

Coopster the 1st wrote:

It's the usual liberal shouty mob trying to out do each other with their faux outrage.

They are scared of having a grown-up conversation on the issue raised and thus suppress the issue underground . . .

What this uproar really proves is that there are large groups of people in the UK who have demonstrated they are not grown-up enough to have an adult conversation on this subject.

That's part of the point though isn't it?

Saying someone looks like a "letterbox" or "bank robber" is anything but a "grown up conversation". I'm unsure whether BJ is capable of such a thing

If this were some junior councillor from an industrial town they would have been out on their ear very quickly

mfin

Coopster the 1st wrote:

It's the usual liberal shouty mob trying to out do each other with their faux outrage.

They are scared of having a grown-up conversation on the issue raised and thus suppress the issue underground.

Then they come out all offended again when reality bites them because the issue can no longer be suppressed. Brexit being a perfect example of this.

Then there is the left leaning media who are using this as an excuse to bury their current problems that the political side they support are having.

And all the above groups are looking for any opportunity to discredit and trash the reputation of anyone who supported Brexit as some sort of revenge thing.

How did you manage to bring Brexit in? Brilliant

Nobody needs to trash the reputation of anyone that supported Brexit, and it has zero to do with this Boris thing.

It's amazing how far people will twist and elaborate on things to fit their own unrelated agendas.

imposter2.0

Coopster the 1st wrote:

It's the usual liberal shouty mob trying to out do each other with their faux outrage.

They are scared of having a grown-up conversation on the issue raised and thus suppress the issue underground.

Then they come out all offended again when reality bites them because the issue can no longer be suppressed. Brexit being a perfect example of this.

Then there is the left leaning media who are using this as an excuse to bury their current problems that the political side they support are having.

And all the above groups are looking for any opportunity to discredit and trash the reputation of anyone who supported Brexit as some sort of revenge thing.

The Danish are a great nation of people and I support the ban they have put in place. I would ban the burka and niqab in the UK because of the underlying religious reasons that means women wear them.

What this uproar really proves is that there are large groups of people in the UK who have demonstrated they are not grown-up enough to have an adult conversation on this subject.

Dammit - if you had mentioned 'crooked' Hillary and Trump as well, I would have won a tenner. Please try harder next time.

cruff

Imposter wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

It's the usual liberal shouty mob trying to out do each other with their faux outrage.

They are scared of having a grown-up conversation on the issue raised and thus suppress the issue underground.

Then they come out all offended again when reality bites them because the issue can no longer be suppressed. Brexit being a perfect example of this.

Then there is the left leaning media who are using this as an excuse to bury their current problems that the political side they support are having.

And all the above groups are looking for any opportunity to discredit and trash the reputation of anyone who supported Brexit as some sort of revenge thing.

The Danish are a great nation of people and I support the ban they have put in place. I would ban the burka and niqab in the UK because of the underlying religious reasons that means women wear them.

What this uproar really proves is that there are large groups of people in the UK who have demonstrated they are not grown-up enough to have an adult conversation on this subject.

Dammit - if you had mentioned 'crooked' Hillary and Trump as well, I would have won a tenner. Please try harder next time.

BUT HER EMAILS!

rjsterry

drlodge wrote:

Pross wrote:

Thing is, it's not even a religious requirement just a narrow interpretation by elements who want to use religion to control things. I believe that use of the burka is quite low in Iran which I suspect most people would consider a fairly hardline Muslim country. Johnson has taken the completely wrong route if he wants to challenge its use as he is ridiculing people who potentially would rather not where it but are forced to and that is where the focus should be.

Agree on the first part, but I think BoJO's error, if there was one, was to say things that seemed to ridicule the women rather than the idea of wearing the clothing.

Perhaps rather than apologise, he should clarify what he meant...the niqab/burka/face covering bin bag outfit is a ridiculous idea and is not the norm in the civilised secular western world.

Love how a load of non-Muslim men KNOW for a solid fact why some Muslim women dress this way, and think it's any of their business to tell them that they shouldn't.

TheBigBean

rjsterry wrote:

Love how a load of non-Muslim men KNOW for a solid fact why some Muslim women dress this way, and think it's any of their business to tell them that they shouldn't.

Why do the women get a pass?

Jez mon

Cruff wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

How many people have actually read the article?

Me

Dare I say it...

That isn't the point.

Bojo isn't claiming to be an artist where he's making comments that have to be taken in context, he's put an article out there with a very deliberately controversial turn of phrase.

Maybe if his only job was a controversial opinion columnist you'd go, I broadly agree with the main thrust of his argument but he makes it in a way that means he comes across as a pillock. But his main job is meant to be as an MP, so what he writes is held to a different standard.

Pross

rjsterry wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Pross wrote:

Thing is, it's not even a religious requirement just a narrow interpretation by elements who want to use religion to control things. I believe that use of the burka is quite low in Iran which I suspect most people would consider a fairly hardline Muslim country. Johnson has taken the completely wrong route if he wants to challenge its use as he is ridiculing people who potentially would rather not where it but are forced to and that is where the focus should be.

Agree on the first part, but I think BoJO's error, if there was one, was to say things that seemed to ridicule the women rather than the idea of wearing the clothing.

Perhaps rather than apologise, he should clarify what he meant...the niqab/burka/face covering bin bag outfit is a ridiculous idea and is not the norm in the civilised secular western world.

Love how a load of non-Muslim men KNOW for a solid fact why some Muslim women dress this way, and think it's any of their business to tell them that they shouldn't.

Not sure I said anywhere I KNOW for a fact why anyone wears one. However, I suspect that in some / many cases the woman isn't choosing to wear it - I can imagine it offers all sorts of practical problems (very hot in many of the countries where it is widely worn, very difficult to eat in public if you're wearing it). I've been told by Muslims directly (and also read and heard on TV / radio) that there is no religious need for them to wear it and that it is a cultural thing rather than religious. If a woman is wearing it through choice then they should be free to do so (but in my opinion they should also be expected to show their face where it is legitimately needed for security such as airports). However, they should also be free from being told they must wear it whether by non-Muslim men, Muslim men or anybody else.

kingstongraham

John Humphrys thinks people are concerned about all the women in burkas they see in pubs.

DeVlaeminck

drlodge wrote:

To steal a quote...

The Burka is the uniform of medieval patriarchal tyranny. It victim-blames women for their beauty. Where this is enforced it symbolises violent misogyny. I don't advocate banning this monstrosity but I refuse to defend it. It deserves to be ridiculed. Not the women inside it.

Women defending this have Stockholm syndrome. Liberals defending this are akin to conservatives defending the confederate flag. It is not racist to challenge religion (which is an idea, not a race). It is our civic duty. It is not offensive to remind everyone that this isn’t normal. It is offensive to advocate for this to become normalised.

Sums up my views on it. Apparently it's all about choice but strangely the men never make this choice just the women. Anyone familiar with Lukes' 3 Faces of Power would recognise this as a classic case. It should be called out for what it is, an unwanted misogynistic practice imported from a culture several centuries behind our own.

I disagree with the jokey way Boris compares women to post boxes and bank robbers but so what at least a public figure has had the bollocks to stand up for western values that were hard fought for.

rjsterry

TheBigBean wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Love how a load of non-Muslim men KNOW for a solid fact why some Muslim women dress this way, and think it's any of their business to tell them that they shouldn't.

Why do the women get a pass?

I was referring just to this thread.

rjsterry

Coopster the 1st wrote:

It's the usual liberal shouty mob

Theresa May, Eric Pickles, Brandon Lewis and Jeremy Wright are the usual liberal shouty mob?

an adult conversation on this subject.

Playground insults are an adult conversation?

DeVlaeminck

Do you really think women in the kind of households where this is normal have a free choice, that they are raised with an open mind on the subject? Come on you aren't that naive are you?

rjsterry

Pross wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Pross wrote:

Thing is, it's not even a religious requirement just a narrow interpretation by elements who want to use religion to control things. I believe that use of the burka is quite low in Iran which I suspect most people would consider a fairly hardline Muslim country. Johnson has taken the completely wrong route if he wants to challenge its use as he is ridiculing people who potentially would rather not where it but are forced to and that is where the focus should be.

Agree on the first part, but I think BoJO's error, if there was one, was to say things that seemed to ridicule the women rather than the idea of wearing the clothing.

Perhaps rather than apologise, he should clarify what he meant...the niqab/burka/face covering bin bag outfit is a ridiculous idea and is not the norm in the civilised secular western world.

Love how a load of non-Muslim men KNOW for a solid fact why some Muslim women dress this way, and think it's any of their business to tell them that they shouldn't.

Not sure I said anywhere I KNOW for a fact why anyone wears one. However, I suspect that in some / many cases the woman isn't choosing to wear it - I can imagine it offers all sorts of practical problems (very hot in many of the countries where it is widely worn, very difficult to eat in public if you're wearing it). I've been told by Muslims directly (and also read and heard on TV / radio) that there is no religious need for them to wear it and that it is a cultural thing rather than religious. If a woman is wearing it through choice then they should be free to do so (but in my opinion they should also be expected to show their face where it is legitimately needed for security such as airports). However, they should also be free from being told they must wear it whether by non-Muslim men, Muslim men or anybody else.

Should they not also be free from being told they shouldn't wear it by anyone? You, I, Boris and everyone except the wearer need to butt out.

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Do you really think women in the kind of households where this is normal have a free choice, that they are raised with an open mind on the subject? Come on you aren't that naive are you?

So what is your issue, the burka that makes them look like a bank robber apparently, or the issue around domestic free will?

It's no coincidence people seem to focus much more on what the woman wears (to the point in some instances where the law allows the police to literally undress them in public), rather than the actual issue.

DeVlaeminck

Well Boris hasn't told anyone they can't wear it, he specifically said he was against a ban.

Rick, as I've already said I found the bank robber comment trivial and unnecessary. It was a silly insult and not something I'd associate myself with and I don't accept your attempt to associate my views with it.

My "issue" with the burqa is that it is a cultural practice that oppresses women. I think at best it's a choice made through a false consciousness and often something which isn't even a choice in that sense of the word. We only have to look around the world to see the status of women in cultures where the burqa is common, I include communities in the uk in that, to pretend it is anything other than repressive shows naivity.

coopster_the_1st

Bar a few this thread proves my point.

Shouty faux outraged liberals are trying to suppress and shutdown the debate by pulling the racism card.

I'm sure Boris knew what he was writing, knowing full well it would bring the debate into the public arena. A pity it is being hijacked by the usual snowflakes!

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Well Boris hasn't told anyone they can't wear it, he specifically said he was against a ban.

Rick, as I've already said I found the bank robber comment trivial and unnecessary. It was a silly insult and not something I'd associate myself with and I don't accept your attempt to associate my views with it.

My "issue" with the burqa is that it is a cultural practice that oppresses women. I think at best it's a choice made through a false consciousness and often something which isn't even a choice in that sense of the word. We only have to look around the world to see the status of women in cultures where the burqa is common, I include communities in the uk in that, to pretend it is anything other than repressive shows naivity.

So it’s a kinda mix between white man “I know best” and broader mainsplaining “I know better than you about your attire”.

If you think female oppression is an issue, banning items of female clothes or alikening them to criminals isn’t the way to go about it, is it?

rick_chasey

It’s not hard. It can be both a symbol of oppression and of rebellion, depending on the context.

Either way it’s the powers that be, who are usually men, who are weighing in on what women ought or ought not to wear.

rjsterry

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Do you really think women in the kind of households where this is normal have a free choice, that they are raised with an open mind on the subject? Come on you aren't that naive are you?

Dunno. The woman in a niqab I spoke to the other day seemed fairly normal, but asking a stranger whether they have made their own decisions about dressing themselves seems a little ridiculous. I'm sure some do feel pressured to dress in this way. I'm equally sure some make an entirely independent decision to do so, and likewise that there are plenty of non-Muslim women who are pressured into dressing or otherwise behaving in a particular (less obvious) way by a family member. If you want to have a debate about women being pressured to conform to certain ways of dressing and behaviour then the enforced wearing of the burqa is a pretty small part.

shirley_basso

It's not really mansplaining to offer an opinion that a typically mysogonistic religion has broadly mysogonistic dress codes which women must/should adhere to. Plus you're kind of stifling the conversation by assigning labels to anyone who has an opinion. People were strongly against hoodies which got them banned in certain areas - those were mostly worn by men, and their association was / is with those who have something to hide. Western culture associates this type of garment with someone who should be feared or who has something to hide, hence a 'general' dislike of them in the West.

Think of it more of a clash of cultures than a clash of genders.

Of course women and anyone has the right to wear what they like, but people who garments which cover your whole face are difficult to communicate with and I'm sure there are western women out there, just as much as men who think, rightly or wrongly that these women are forced to wear these types of clothing and that they shouldn't be.

And if they do wear them willingly, ask yourself where the religious doctrine comes from which encouraged it in the first place?

Relating to rjsterry I think I agree that social pressure on what women should wear is equally strong if not worse but the consequences for rebelling against it aren't generally as severe as where religion enforces it.

Of course, this is just opinion for discussion and I don't think I know best, but I do disapprove of a section of society or a religion enforcing any way of life on another without them making an informed decision about it themselves.

rjsterry

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Bar a few this thread proves my point.

Shouty faux outraged liberals are trying to suppress and shutdown the debate by pulling the racism card.

I'm sure Boris knew what he was writing, knowing full well it would bring the debate into the public arena. A pity it is being hijacked by the usual snowflakes!

Boris thinks of himself as a liberal.

This thread is a debate, it's just that nobody agrees with you.

4chan is that way >>>

rjsterry

Shirley Basso wrote:

It's not really mansplaining to offer an opinion that a typically mysogonistic religion has broadly mysogonistic dress codes which women must/should adhere to.

Congratulations! You win Sweeping Generalisation of the Week.

shirley_basso

rjsterry wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

It's not really mansplaining to offer an opinion that a typically mysogonistic religion has broadly mysogonistic dress codes which women must/should adhere to.

Congratulations! You win Sweeping Generalisation of the Week.

Well that's my point. Just because someone disagrees with what appears to be women having to wear clothing covering their whole or part of their faces, doesn't make them a know it all or mean they are mansplaining. I'm rebutting Rick's comments to Pross.

rjsterry

Slowbike wrote:

cooldad wrote:

bompington wrote:

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/as-a-muslim-woman-id-like-to-thank-boris-johnson-for-calling-out-the-niqab/

That's assuming BJ is subtle enough to understand the point that writer is making, and isn't just a total knob.

I go with the latter.

Oh I dunno - I think he can be a total knob whilst understanding politics and how to manipulate things - I'd be surprised if anything said wasn't done intentionally and with a clear understanding of the affects it may have.

It really is about time we banned religion from the world... it's just an excuse for the few to exert control over the masses.

Hmm. China have tried this. They still seem to be quite hot on control for atheists.

FishFish

Pross wrote:

drlodge wrote:

I believe that use of the burka is quite low in Iran which I suspect most people would consider a fairly hardline Muslim country. .

Iran is Shia that is why.

FishFish

It is not just Britain that is banning it Denmark and France too. And I agree.

rjsterry

FishFish wrote:

It is not just Britain that is banning it Denmark and France too. And I agree.

Britain isn't banning it, but you knew that.

FishFish

You got me there - I thought that was what the fuss was about. For the sake of generality ban them and ban hoods too.

..preferably ban the working class too.

Pross

rjsterry wrote:

Pross wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Pross wrote:

Thing is, it's not even a religious requirement just a narrow interpretation by elements who want to use religion to control things. I believe that use of the burka is quite low in Iran which I suspect most people would consider a fairly hardline Muslim country. Johnson has taken the completely wrong route if he wants to challenge its use as he is ridiculing people who potentially would rather not where it but are forced to and that is where the focus should be.

Agree on the first part, but I think BoJO's error, if there was one, was to say things that seemed to ridicule the women rather than the idea of wearing the clothing.

Perhaps rather than apologise, he should clarify what he meant...the niqab/burka/face covering bin bag outfit is a ridiculous idea and is not the norm in the civilised secular western world.

Love how a load of non-Muslim men KNOW for a solid fact why some Muslim women dress this way, and think it's any of their business to tell them that they shouldn't.

Not sure I said anywhere I KNOW for a fact why anyone wears one. However, I suspect that in some / many cases the woman isn't choosing to wear it - I can imagine it offers all sorts of practical problems (very hot in many of the countries where it is widely worn, very difficult to eat in public if you're wearing it). I've been told by Muslims directly (and also read and heard on TV / radio) that there is no religious need for them to wear it and that it is a cultural thing rather than religious. If a woman is wearing it through choice then they should be free to do so (but in my opinion they should also be expected to show their face where it is legitimately needed for security such as airports). However, they should also be free from being told they must wear it whether by non-Muslim men, Muslim men or anybody else.

Should they not also be free from being told they shouldn't wear it by anyone? You, I, Boris and everyone except the wearer need to butt out.

Of course and I thought I’d said that (or at least implied it) in the part in bold above. My only qualification is that faces should be clearly visible in areas such as airport security or immigration as I don’t see how they can be effective without being able to identify the person. Of course, that probably already occurs and the stories of immigration officials being unable to ask someone to uncover their face are likely Daily Mail style propaganda. Being a white, middle aged, non-Muslim male I obviously don’t have any insight on the subject but my instinct is that very few women, given a completely free choice (no pressure from family or religious leaders) would choose to wear something that appears to be so impractical but I accept I could be completely wrong.

At the other end of the spectrum there was a story a few years back about women in the City being told to dress in a certain (less conservative!) way which is equally unacceptable.

However, I’m not sure Boris’ comments or even calling for a ban altogether can be called anti-Islamic as (from my limited understanding) wearing a Burka is not a religious requirement.