European Champs Road Races

bobmcstuff

DeVlaeminck wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Lack of race radios was definitely something to do with it. At one point the Brits were chasing down their own rider for 15 minutes until they got the message and I'm sure Germany did the same early on.

And this is at the essence of the radio debate. Race radios are their to tell riders the race situation so that they can make informed tactical decisions. The stereotype is that DSs are calling the shots, but whenever the riders talk about tactics it's the team leader or road captain doing it.

Eliminating race radios will just mean that decisions are made with less information. And in any field less information ultimately leads to more conservative actions.

But in so doing created a more chaotic and exciting race !

Not necessarily sure that a race where every break gets chased down immediately would be more exciting...

Maybe they should just do some stages without it.

Or maybe some stages where they mix up all the radios and put the riders on with DSs from other teams so they can feed the riders misinformation. The "Fake News" stage.

No_Ta_Doctor

I always think non-trade races have weird and confusing tactics anyway. I tend to know what most trade teams are bringing to a race and what they might be trying, but as soon as it's all mixed up and they're in national kit I'm lost.

Oh and riders chasing their own teammates because they didn't know isn't exciting, it's farcical. Cycling has a current surplus of farce, we don't need any more, thank you very much.

Pross

Rather than start a new thread I thought I'd chuck this here. Seeing that the swimming champs in Glasgow has a mixed medley today got me thinking, does anyone think a mixed team pursuit would be a good addition to the major track champs? It would make for some interesting tactical decisions but can't recall ever seeing it done.

cougie

Maybe the Revolution series could test this out.

RichN95.

Pross wrote:

Rather than start a new thread I thought I'd chuck this here. Seeing that the swimming champs in Glasgow has a mixed medley today got me thinking, does anyone think a mixed team pursuit would be a good addition to the major track champs? It would make for some interesting tactical decisions but can't recall ever seeing it done.

The swimming worked because both men and women had to do the same amount of swimming on their own.

In the pursuits that wouldn't be the case. It's worth pointing out that in these championships all three medallists in the Men's individual pursuit did the 4k faster than the fastest run in the Women's team pursuit. The clear tactic would be for the slower woman to drop out immediately and the faster one to get paced around as best as possible by the two men. It would be no different than having an individual pursuit behind a derny, unless you mandated that each rider does equal turns.

rick_chasey

No tA Doctor wrote:

I always think non-trade races have weird and confusing tactics anyway. I tend to know what most trade teams are bringing to a race and what they might be trying, but as soon as it's all mixed up and they're in national kit I'm lost.

Oh and riders chasing their own teammates because they didn't know isn't exciting, it's farcical. Cycling has a current surplus of farce, we don't need any more, thank you very much.

Is this not partly down to lack of experience without radios?

I mean there were a good 80 years of cycling with no race radios and they weren't all chasing each other all the time.

bobmcstuff

Rick Chasey wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

I always think non-trade races have weird and confusing tactics anyway. I tend to know what most trade teams are bringing to a race and what they might be trying, but as soon as it's all mixed up and they're in national kit I'm lost.

Oh and riders chasing their own teammates because they didn't know isn't exciting, it's farcical. Cycling has a current surplus of farce, we don't need any more, thank you very much.

Is this not partly down to lack of experience without radios?

I mean there were a good 80 years of cycling with no race radios and they weren't all chasing each other all the time.

I was thinking this, isn't the road captain's job to police who is going in the break and decide if it goes or not.

Pross

RichN95 wrote:

Pross wrote:

Rather than start a new thread I thought I'd chuck this here. Seeing that the swimming champs in Glasgow has a mixed medley today got me thinking, does anyone think a mixed team pursuit would be a good addition to the major track champs? It would make for some interesting tactical decisions but can't recall ever seeing it done.

The swimming worked because both men and women had to do the same amount of swimming on their own.

In the pursuits that wouldn't be the case. It's worth pointing out that in these championships all three medallists in the Men's individual pursuit did the 4k faster than the fastest run in the Women's team pursuit. The clear tactic would be for the slower woman to drop out immediately and the faster one to get paced around as best as possible by the two men. It would be no different than having an individual pursuit behind a derny, unless you mandated that each rider does equal turns.

I'm not convinced. That's the sort of thing I was wondering about, whether you put a slow rider on the front to burn them up in the first km (maybe a strong female kilo rider) or riders doing half turns so that the stronger riders get a rest and can then go even faster at the end. I'd still be interested to see how teams would approach it and think you'd get various strategies.

hanshotfirst

Anybody know what time the race is due to finish on Saturday? Gonna see if I can watch it and then get back through to Stirling to see that David Millar film at the Macrobert.

Also is there a start list?

hanshotfirst

argyllflyer wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

sherer wrote:

When's the men's race ?

Next Sunday. Time Trials on Wednesday.

The knock on of the road closures for Wednesday is causing a bit of fuss in other sports - semi pro football games postponed on Wednesday evening because parts of the city are being closed off (though one of the teams involved is not happy and wants the game played regardless).

Love that this is noising up the football fans! My mate is a Clyde supporter, wonder if they're meant to be playing and if he'll have a rant at me for being a cyclist.

DeVlaeminck

bobmcstuff wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

I always think non-trade races have weird and confusing tactics anyway. I tend to know what most trade teams are bringing to a race and what they might be trying, but as soon as it's all mixed up and they're in national kit I'm lost.

Oh and riders chasing their own teammates because they didn't know isn't exciting, it's farcical. Cycling has a current surplus of farce, we don't need any more, thank you very much.

Is this not partly down to lack of experience without radios?

I mean there were a good 80 years of cycling with no race radios and they weren't all chasing each other all the time.

I was thinking this, isn't the road captain's job to police who is going in the break and decide if it goes or not.

I don't know if everyone commenting watched the race but they didn't chase down everyone as soon as they tried to get away like some 3rd cat race.

Of course it's one race and may not indicate that lack of radios would necessarily make a race more exciting but in this case it certainly seemed to contribute to the entertainment.

RichN95.

hanshotfirst wrote:

Anybody know what time the race is due to finish on Saturday? Gonna see if I can watch it and then get back through to Stirling to see that David Millar film at the Macrobert.

Also is there a start list?

First of all it's on SUNDAY, not Saturday. It finishes around 4-4.30.

This is the entry list. These are the countries squads from which the final teams will be chosen: https://www.europeanchampionships.com/r ... ce-men.htm

Dorset_Boy

Pross wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Pross wrote:

Rather than start a new thread I thought I'd chuck this here. Seeing that the swimming champs in Glasgow has a mixed medley today got me thinking, does anyone think a mixed team pursuit would be a good addition to the major track champs? It would make for some interesting tactical decisions but can't recall ever seeing it done.

The swimming worked because both men and women had to do the same amount of swimming on their own.

In the pursuits that wouldn't be the case. It's worth pointing out that in these championships all three medallists in the Men's individual pursuit did the 4k faster than the fastest run in the Women's team pursuit. The clear tactic would be for the slower woman to drop out immediately and the faster one to get paced around as best as possible by the two men. It would be no different than having an individual pursuit behind a derny, unless you mandated that each rider does equal turns.

I'm not convinced. That's the sort of thing I was wondering about, whether you put a slow rider on the front to burn them up in the first km (maybe a strong female kilo rider) or riders doing half turns so that the stronger riders get a rest and can then go even faster at the end. I'd still be interested to see how teams would approach it and think you'd get various strategies.

How about a relay, say 4.75 kms, so each rider does a min of 1 km and then have a lap to handsling in the next rider....

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Eliminating race radios will just mean that decisions are made with less information. And in any field less information ultimately leads to more conservative actions.

Over the long run i don't buy that.

shirley_basso

I'd say if you think the chasing group are less clued up then you're more likely to think a breakaway would stick?

bobmcstuff

Shirley Basso wrote:

I'd say if you think the chasing group are less clued up then you're more likely to think a breakaway would stick?

I would have assumed the opposite, I would have thought they would be much more cautious about the amount of time they let the break take (bearing in mind they do still get time checks from the motos)

No_Ta_Doctor

I'm really not all that interested in "excitement" that's generated by riders not having the correct info and therefore making a mistake. Why not go all the way and take the race numbers off and let them ride in masks? Why not make them ride a route where they don't know where the finish line is? What's it all for anyway, just to give a break a better chance of staying away?

Anyone proposing this is a good thing ought to refresh themselves on The Stolen Vuelta.

DeVlaeminck

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Eliminating race radios will just mean that decisions are made with less information. And in any field less information ultimately leads to more conservative actions.

Over the long run i don't buy that.

It's very hard to know what the conservative action is if you don't have perfect information. So for example if a rival attacks but you have 3 domestiques 20 seconds from making contact with your group the conservative thing is to wait and let them ride the rival down. If you have no idea where your domestiques are the conservative thing is what...I don't think it's obvious.

My take is it means the race becomes less controllable so it favours the risk taker and disfavours (if that is a word) the strongest teams.

When people say they don't want excitement created by mistakes why not? It's still up to opposition riders to put them in a situation where they have to make the call - it's part of racing it's not like they are told the course could go left and right and if they take the wrong turn it's a dead end.

And can we get away from this idea it's all a out breaks staying away on long flat stages. It's not, it's about those situations such as Landa or Quintana or Valverde going up the road in the Tour this year and how the favourites react. Teams can pull unimportant breaks back with or without radios - the issue is about key decisions at key points that crop up every so often in races where radios do help the stronger team use that strength to its greatest advantage.

RichN95.

DeVlaeminck wrote:

It's very hard to know what the conservative action is if you don't have perfect information. So for example if a rival attacks but you have 3 domestiques 20 seconds from making contact with your group the conservative thing is to wait and let them ride the rival down. If you have no idea where your domestiques are the conservative thing is what...I don't think it's obvious.

But good teams would ride together as a block for most of the race so they know where the domestiques are. They already do that in most races, why would they change tactics because of a lack of radios?

In most areas of life people who lack information about a situation will act defensively.

No_Ta_Doctor

DeVlaeminck wrote:

When people say they don't want excitement created by mistakes why not? It's still up to opposition riders to put them in a situation where they have to make the call - it's part of racing it's not like they are told the course could go left and right and if they take the wrong turn it's a dead end.

Mistake was maybe the wrong word. It can be argued that Dumoulin made a mistake in not chasing Froome alone in the Giro - he made a decision to wait for Riechenbach which cost him time (personally I think he would have been cooked if he tried t go it alone, but that's another story). But there was a tactical decision, made on the road, with accurate information available.

If, for some strange reason (and I can put up a hypothetical scenario for you if you really want - again, think the Stolen Vuelta) he didn't know Froome had attacked and therefore just dawdled along then that's not a mistake, it's making the correct tactical decision based on faulty or missing information. I don't think that would be "exciting", I think that would be farcical.

I want to see riders make tactical decisions based on accurate information. Otherwise it *is* like not being told the course but taking a wrong turn to a dead end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Vuelta_a_Espa%C3%B1a

rick_chasey

No tA Doctor wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

When people say they don't want excitement created by mistakes why not? It's still up to opposition riders to put them in a situation where they have to make the call - it's part of racing it's not like they are told the course could go left and right and if they take the wrong turn it's a dead end.

Mistake was maybe the wrong word. It can be argued that Dumoulin made a mistake in not chasing Froome alone in the Giro - he made a decision to wait for Riechenbach which cost him time (personally I think he would have been cooked if he tried t go it alone, but that's another story). But there was a tactical decision, made on the road, with accurate information available.

If, for some strange reason (and I can put up a hypothetical scenario for you if you really want - again, think the Stolen Vuelta) he didn't know Froome had attacked and therefore just dawdled along then that's not a mistake, it's making the correct tactical decision based on faulty or missing information. I don't think that would be "exciting", I think that would be farcical.

I want to see riders make tactical decisions based on accurate information. Otherwise it *is* like not being told the course but taking a wrong turn to a dead end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Vuelta_a_Espa%C3%B1a

Not really.

Knowing your team mate is in the front group, but, for example not knowing he’s blowing hard and not contributing because he’s pooped is quite a lot of extra information over “these three are in the break at x minutes”

I sort of like the idea that to get additional information beyond the composition of group and time gaps you need proximity.

I don’t think the 1.HC and below races we saw when race radios were banned had more conservative riding.

I think if affects races a lot less than people think because, for a few notable exceptions, those races played out as expected.

When Froome was being dropped in the Tour this year, the riders didn’t instantly notice and Froome had the luxury of radioing to Berbal to tell him to chill. Only after that did his rivals notice and attack. I personally would hve liked it that he shout to Berbal to get his attention.

The same on the other side in 2012 when Froome made the move and the radio told him to come back.

I like the idea that proximity to the action has a genuine advantage and deep down I think it honestly favours the more attacking minded, albeit it’s quite a small impact.

Alan Ha Ha

hanshotfirst wrote:

Anybody know what time the race is due to finish on Saturday? Gonna see if I can watch it and then get back through to Stirling to see that David Millar film at the Macrobert.

Also is there a start list?

It's Sunday.

Start lists are not published until 5pm the evening before.

WOMEN'S TIME TRIAL FINAL THURSDAY 8 AUGUST 2018 09:00 RIVERSIDE MUSEUM - GLASGOW GREEN Race distance 32.3Km


Surname, Name UCI ID
Communique 1
Country Code

09:00
34
JASEKOVÁ, Tatiana
10009722818
SVK

09:01
33
LAIZANE, Lija
10008680571
LAT

09:02
32
BURNS, Eileen
10015200082
IRL

09:03
31
SHAPIRA, Omer
10008954700
ISR

09:04
30
SHEKEL, Olga
10008694921
UKR

09:05
29
LØNNE, Rikke
10009196893
DEN

09:06
28
PLIASKINA, Anastasiia
10014142984
RUS

09:07
27
PLICHTA, Anna
10009723121
POL

09:08
26
LABOUS, Juliette
10009749894
FRA

09:09
25
WORRACK, Trixi
10002059414
GER

09:10
24
CAVALLI, Marta
10011143260
ITA

09:11
23
MURPHY, Kelly
10015835030
IRL

09:12
22
COVRIG, Ana Maria
10050831115
ROM

09:13
21
PAVLUKHINA, Olena
10005970433
AZE

09:14
20
MACHAČOVÁ, Jarmila
10004738937
CZE

09:15
19
GAFINOVITZ, Rotem
10007521524
ISR

09:16
18
HANSELMANN, Nicole
10004766017
SUI

09:17
17
RITTER, Martina
10008692796
AUT

09:18
16
RAGAZINSKIENE, Daiva
10003220582
LTU

09:19
15
KONONENKO, Valeriya
10003836534
UKR

09:20
14
LEPISTÖ, Lotta Pauliina
10006326202
FIN

09:21
13
GULLIKSEN, Line Marie
10013943631
NOR

09:22
12
BUJAK, Eugenia
10006412589
SLO

09:23
11
MATHIESEN, Pernille
10009637134
DEN

09:24
10
OYARBIDE JIMENEZ, Lourdes
10008651168
ESP

09:25
9
SYRADOEVA, Margarita
10008696537
RUS

09:26
8
SIMMONDS, Hayley
10009326128
GBR

09:27
7
PAWLOWSKA, Katarzyna
10006436336
POL

09:28
6
VAN DER BREGGEN, Anna
10005972655
NED

09:29
5
CORDON RAGOT, Audrey
10005540906
FRA

09:30
4
BRENNAUER, Lisa
10004602935
GER

09:31
3
LONGO BORGHINI, Elisa
10007614985
ITA

09:32
2
DUYCK, Ann-Sophie
10007971562
BEL

09:33
1
VAN DIJK, Ellen
10003264335
NED

Alan Ha Ha

MEN'S TIME TRIAL FINAL THURSDAY 8 AUGUST 2018 13:00 RIVERSIDE MUSEUM - GLASGOW GREEN Race distance 45.7Km

Surname, Name UCI ID
Communique 2
Country Code

13:00
34
BAGDONAS, Gediminas
10003097516
LTU

13:01
33
GOLOVASH, Oleksandr
10006876977
UKR

13:02
32
MACHADO, Tiago
10003247359
POR

13:03
31
DUNBAR, Edward
10009793950
IRL

13:04
30
OVECHKIN, Artem
10005953861
RUS

13:05
29
BÁRTA, Jan
10003245945
CZE

13:06
28
MATHIS, Marco
10007751694
GER

13:07
27
QUAADE, Rasmus Christian
10006064504
DEN

13:08
26
TANFIELD, Harry
10008696840
GBR

13:09
25
DE LA PARTE, Victor
10007452816
ESP

13:10
24
VAN BAARLE, Dylan
10006884455
NED

13:11
23
PAILLOT, Yoann
10006581836
FRA

13:12
22
LAMPAERT, Yves
10008622876
BEL

13:13
21
MOSER, Moreno
10005964167
ITA

13:14
20
NAVARDAUSKAS, Ramunas
10004505531
LTU

13:15
19
LUDVIGSSON, Tobias
10006477762
SWE

13:16
18
SAMOILAU, Branislau
10002917862
BLR

13:17
17
GRIVKO, Andrey
10002698604
UKR

13:18
16
GONÇALVES, José
10006919316
POR

13:19
15
BRÄNDLE, Matthias
10005391564
AUT

13:20
14
ČANECKY, Marek
10004611625
SVK

13:21
13
EVTUSHENKO, Alexander
10008705025
RUS

13:22
12
ČERNÝ, Josef
10007523241
CZE

13:23
11
KÜNG, Stefan
10007499494
SUI

13:24
10
BIALOBLOCKI, Marcin
10003318188
POL

13:25
9
SCHACHMANN, Maximilian
10008693810
GER

13:26
8
MADSEN, Martin Toft
10009766971
DEN
13:27

7
DOWSETT, Alex
10004881508
GBR

13:28
6
CASTROVIEJO, Jonathan
10004617180
ESP

13:29
5
VAN EMDEN, Jos
10004519978
NED

13:30
4
GOUGEARD, Alexis
10007743109
FRA

13:31
3
GANNA, Filippo
10009164056
ITA

13:32
2
MULLEN, Ryan
10008635408
IRL

13:33
1
CAMPENAERTS, Victor
10008913371
BEL

pblakeney

Alan Ha Ha wrote:

MEN'S TIME TRIAL FINAL WEDNESDAY 8 AUGUST 2018 13:00 RIVERSIDE MUSEUM - GLASGOW GREEN Race distance 45.7Km..

FTFY

Alan Ha Ha

PBlakeney wrote:

Alan Ha Ha wrote:

MEN'S TIME TRIAL FINAL WEDNESDAY 8 AUGUST 2018 13:00 RIVERSIDE MUSEUM - GLASGOW GREEN Race distance 45.7Km..

FTFY

hahahahaha organisers error, I just copy and pasted.

http://uec.ch/resources/2018%20Events/2018%20Glasgow/road/lists/tt_start_men.pdf

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Not really.

Knowing your team mate is in the front group, but, for example not knowing he’s blowing hard and not contributing because he’s pooped is quite a lot of extra information over “these three are in the break at x minutes”

I sort of like the idea that to get additional information beyond the composition of group and time gaps you need proximity.

A counter example from the last Tour - first proper mountain stage. Nieve gets in the break clearly with a view to helping Yates in the finale somehow. However, Yates struggles and is dropped. Immediately, Nieve gets told and he attacks, almost winning the stage.

Without radios? Either he sits in the group clueless until they are caught or, more likely, he never goes with the break in the first place.

DeadCalm

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Not really.

Knowing your team mate is in the front group, but, for example not knowing he’s blowing hard and not contributing because he’s pooped is quite a lot of extra information over “these three are in the break at x minutes”

I sort of like the idea that to get additional information beyond the composition of group and time gaps you need proximity.

A counter example from the last Tour - first proper mountain stage. Nieve gets in the break clearly with a view to helping Yates in the finale somehow. However, Yates struggles and is dropped. Immediately, Nieve gets told and he attacks, almost winning the stage.

Without radios? Either he sits in the group clueless until they are caught or, more likely, he never goes with the break in the first place.

Presumably there would have been a M-S car behind the break from which he would be getting information when he went back to get a drink? Likewise, domestiques in the peloton will be getting information from the team car. The information will be there, it just won't be as immediate, right?

I don't have a strong view either way. When did they start using race radios? Were there noticeable changes as a result?

DeadCalm

No tA Doctor wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

When people say they don't want excitement created by mistakes why not? It's still up to opposition riders to put them in a situation where they have to make the call - it's part of racing it's not like they are told the course could go left and right and if they take the wrong turn it's a dead end.

Mistake was maybe the wrong word. It can be argued that Dumoulin made a mistake in not chasing Froome alone in the Giro - he made a decision to wait for Riechenbach which cost him time (personally I think he would have been cooked if he tried t go it alone, but that's another story). But there was a tactical decision, made on the road, with accurate information available.

If, for some strange reason (and I can put up a hypothetical scenario for you if you really want - again, think the Stolen Vuelta) he didn't know Froome had attacked and therefore just dawdled along then that's not a mistake, it's making the correct tactical decision based on faulty or missing information. I don't think that would be "exciting", I think that would be farcical.

I want to see riders make tactical decisions based on accurate information. Otherwise it *is* like not being told the course but taking a wrong turn to a dead end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Vuelta_a_Espa%C3%B1a

The 'stolen' Vuelta could almost certainly never happen these days with or without radios but, even so, not paying attention and allowing a rival to disappear so far up the road without noticing, that's pretty lame.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Not really.

Knowing your team mate is in the front group, but, for example not knowing he’s blowing hard and not contributing because he’s pooped is quite a lot of extra information over “these three are in the break at x minutes”

I sort of like the idea that to get additional information beyond the composition of group and time gaps you need proximity.

A counter example from the last Tour - first proper mountain stage. Nieve gets in the break clearly with a view to helping Yates in the finale somehow. However, Yates struggles and is dropped. Immediately, Nieve gets told and he attacks, almost winning the stage.

Without radios? Either he sits in the group clueless until they are caught or, more likely, he never goes with the break in the first place.

Or he notices Yates is dropping from the group (since they still get info on the race situation). You know they still get time gaps, radio or no radio, right?

I still don’t see why riders can’t just be tuned into race radio and press a button or have some electronic signal that radios they have a mechanical.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

I still don’t see why riders can’t just be tuned into race radio and press a button or have some electronic signal that radios they have a mechanical.

What if they don't speak the language of race radio?

I say keep them and broadcast the interesting bits from the DS's end (which might show the public that the DSs aren't usually the ones making the tactical decisions).