"to be honest, I don't care about cyclists..."

DavidJB

mfin wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

mfin wrote:

It's the attitudes of cyclists that has to change. Well, the ones who create the bad rap for the rest of us. Cyclists should ride in a way that always holds in mind that they could be holding people up, people who no matter how much you educate them, will be pissed off if they are inconvenienced.

There are a lot less bikes than cars on the road, and a cyclist is going to get in people's way. Once you ride in a manner that is safe, will minimise any inconvenience to drivers, and thanking drivers who have sat behind you, passed you well etc, then you are doing your bit. Unfortunately, what happens is a huge amount of cyclists ride like the ****s they are, and it's difficult to get ****s to stop acting like ****s.

This guy :roll:

You'd have to be a dipshit or naive to not agree. Try reading it again, I'm not pointing the finger at all cyclists, not at all, there are lots of polite cyclists who ride well.

It's more your aggressive tone I find amusing. You must be a very angry man. Calm down dear. Do you think by taking some unnecessary tone your point is any more valid? You just come across as either a troll or a moron. I actually didn't indicate how I felt either way, but don't let that get in the way of your little keyboard rage

joenobody

mfin wrote:

Drivers wouldn't get annoyed if cyclists rode courteously and were polite

What a load of rubbish. Of course (some - not all, let's not lump them all together because of a small subset) drivers would still get annoyed. Some drivers will only be happy when there are no cyclists on the roads at all.

slowbike

mfin wrote:

if you're looking for ways to improve the situation by lessening bad driving around bad examples of cycling, the best way is to try to get the cyclists not to create unnecessary danger for themselves by riding in ways that irritate drivers. I find it staggering that so many cyclists are that stupid that they continually think that it's always the drivers fault.

If cyclists rode more courteously and less arrogantly, individual cases of driving that puts them in danger would not happen and overall attitudes towards them as a whole would improve.

Out on the club ride - vast majority of drivers courteous, riders single out and enable the drivers to overtake where appropriate - everyone is happy. Except there's always one - trying to overtake the group whilst we're doing >30mph downhill around a blind bend with double white lines - so for over 2 hours we're courteous riders - and for 20 seconds we're complete tits ... or is it just the driver that is the complete tit and can't wait 20 seconds for the road to open up so he can overtake?

Sorry - there are shit cyclists and shit drivers - the sensible cyclists come across more shit drivers because they go faster.

mfin

DavidJB wrote:

mfin wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

mfin wrote:

It's the attitudes of cyclists that has to change. Well, the ones who create the bad rap for the rest of us. Cyclists should ride in a way that always holds in mind that they could be holding people up, people who no matter how much you educate them, will be pissed off if they are inconvenienced.

There are a lot less bikes than cars on the road, and a cyclist is going to get in people's way. Once you ride in a manner that is safe, will minimise any inconvenience to drivers, and thanking drivers who have sat behind you, passed you well etc, then you are doing your bit. Unfortunately, what happens is a huge amount of cyclists ride like the ****s they are, and it's difficult to get ****s to stop acting like ****s.

This guy :roll:

You'd have to be a dipshit or naive to not agree. Try reading it again, I'm not pointing the finger at all cyclists, not at all, there are lots of polite cyclists who ride well.

It's more your aggressive tone I find amusing. You must be a very angry man. Calm down dear. Do you think by taking some unnecessary tone your point is any more valid? You just come across as either a troll or a moron. I actually didn't indicate how I felt either way, but don't let that get in the way of your little keyboard rage

You've assumed that I'm angry, I'm not, I'm quite laid back. I think you're taking things far too seriously!

mfin

JoeNobody wrote:

mfin wrote:

Drivers wouldn't get annoyed if cyclists rode courteously and were polite

What a load of rubbish. Of course (some - not all, let's not lump them all together because of a small subset) drivers would still get annoyed. Some drivers will only be happy when there are no cyclists on the roads at all.

Well done, you've spotted that some drivers will get annoyed whatever. Of course they will. You've just quoted a small sentence and argued against it, that's hardly difficult to do or clever. The general point still stands. Unless you think that if all cyclists being polite and courteous it would be utterly pointless? It wouldn't be though, and good manners are never a bad thing.

joenobody

mfin wrote:

Well done, you've spotted that some drivers will get annoyed whatever. Of course they will. You've just quoted a small sentence and argued against it, that's hardly difficult to do or clever. The general point still stands. Unless you think that if all cyclists being polite and courteous it would be utterly pointless? It wouldn't be though, and good manners are never a bad thing.

I picked that sentence because it appeared to me to be central to your argument, but ok, let's take a little more of what you wrote:

That said, if you're looking for ways to improve the situation by lessening bad driving around bad examples of cycling, the best way is to try to get the cyclists not to create unnecessary danger for themselves by riding in ways that irritate drivers. I find it staggering that so many cyclists are that stupid that they continually think that it's always the drivers fault.

Bad driving is almost endemic. Drivers break the rules of the road all the time, regardless of the presence, or not, of cyclists on the road in front of them. It's part of the hurried, self important lives we believe we lead right now. The recommendation for cyclists to ride in the primary position in certain circumstances can be enough to enrage a driver, even though they're doing so in order to "not create unnecessary danger for themselves". In these cases it's highly likely that any danger will be precipitated by the driver not having the patience to sit back and wait for a safe moment to execute whatever manoeuvre they had in mind (assuming that it wasn't "pass the cyclist too close to punish them for being on the road").

If cyclists rode more courteously and less arrogantly, individual cases of driving that puts them in danger would not happen and overall attitudes towards them as a whole would improve.

Or, if drivers drove more courteously and less arrogantly, individual cases of driving that puts cyclists (or any other road user) in danger would not happen. I don't know what impact that would have on the overall attitude towards drivers as a whole because we don't judge all of them the same, based on the actions of a few.

The best way of making drivers who think cyclists are complete ****s by default is not to ride like a complete ****s. The more examples of cyclists being courteous and waving to say thanks when drivers wait for them that drivers see the more they might think better of all cyclists.

No. Drivers need to accept that they have a duty of care to other road users, regardless of their behaviour, because they're driving a ton+ metal box that can kill or seriously injure at relatively (for a car/truck/motor vehicle) low speeds. That is, after all, why drivers need a license to drive and cyclists don't need one to ride. I shouldn't have to acknowledge exceptionally good behaviour from drivers when I'm on my bike because it should be the norm, not an exception. I should, and do, do it because I'm a polite person. I do it when I'm driving too, but that doesn't mean it's a valid solution to making the roads safer for cycling. It is unwarranted entitlement on the behalf of drivers that causes these problems. It's why people don't let people merge in from a closing lane, or let them out from junctions, or stop at a traffic light just changing to red, etc, when the impact to the driver is actually small. And it's the drivers' behaviour that should be addressed.

mfin

JoeNobody wrote:

mfin wrote:

Well done, you've spotted that some drivers will get annoyed whatever. Of course they will. You've just quoted a small sentence and argued against it, that's hardly difficult to do or clever. The general point still stands. Unless you think that if all cyclists being polite and courteous it would be utterly pointless? It wouldn't be though, and good manners are never a bad thing.

I picked that sentence because it appeared to me to be central to your argument, but ok, let's take a little more of what you wrote:

That said, if you're looking for ways to improve the situation by lessening bad driving around bad examples of cycling, the best way is to try to get the cyclists not to create unnecessary danger for themselves by riding in ways that irritate drivers. I find it staggering that so many cyclists are that stupid that they continually think that it's always the drivers fault.

Bad driving is almost endemic. Drivers break the rules of the road all the time, regardless of the presence, or not, of cyclists on the road in front of them. It's part of the hurried, self important lives we believe we lead right now. The recommendation for cyclists to ride in the primary position in certain circumstances can be enough to enrage a driver, even though they're doing so in order to "not create unnecessary danger for themselves". In these cases it's highly likely that any danger will be precipitated by the driver not having the patience to sit back and wait for a safe moment to execute whatever manoeuvre they had in mind (assuming that it wasn't "pass the cyclist too close to punish them for being on the road").

If cyclists rode more courteously and less arrogantly, individual cases of driving that puts them in danger would not happen and overall attitudes towards them as a whole would improve.

Or, if drivers drove more courteously and less arrogantly, individual cases of driving that puts cyclists (or any other road user) in danger would not happen. I don't know what impact that would have on the overall attitude towards drivers as a whole because we don't judge all of them the same, based on the actions of a few.

The best way of making drivers who think cyclists are complete ****s by default is not to ride like a complete ****s. The more examples of cyclists being courteous and waving to say thanks when drivers wait for them that drivers see the more they might think better of all cyclists.

No. Drivers need to accept that they have a duty of care to other road users, regardless of their behaviour, because they're driving a ton+ metal box that can kill or seriously injure at relatively (for a car/truck/motor vehicle) low speeds. That is, after all, why drivers need a license to drive and cyclists don't need one to ride. I shouldn't have to acknowledge exceptionally good behaviour from drivers when I'm on my bike because it should be the norm, not an exception. I should, and do, do it because I'm a polite person. I do it when I'm driving too, but that doesn't mean it's a valid solution to making the roads safer for cycling. It is unwarranted entitlement on the behalf of drivers that causes these problems. It's why people don't let people merge in from a closing lane, or let them out from junctions, or stop at a traffic light just changing to red, etc, when the impact to the driver is actually small. And it's the drivers' behaviour that should be addressed.

Well, you seem to say you are courteous and polite so if you're also riding well, you're not part of the problem, so great.

In an ideal world yes drivers would drive in the presence of cyclists in such a way that they are safe, I completely agree, but drivers are regularly pushed over the edge by crap examples of cycling, the fact they should not react like that is neither here nor there.

For the times this is a product of crap cycling, it can be solved by better cycling, that's the the part cyclists can help with. Everybody knows there are loads of cases of bad driving when the cyclists have done nothing wrong, but that kind of thing already gets plenty of press and attention. Cyclists riding like t***s doesn't, and it should.

People should consider how they ride, so many ride badly, if you don't think that that is true and contributes to the ill feeling about cyclists then you are in cloud cuckoo land.

Anyway, the point is that cyclists should improve and drivers should improve. Sometimes on here people are so stupid that they think it's all about the drivers. It's not. There's no need to defend cyclists as a whole when so many ride so badly.

slowbike

mfin wrote:

Anyway, the point is that cyclists should improve and drivers should improve. Sometimes on here people are so stupid that they think it's all about the drivers. It's not. There's no need to defend cyclists as a whole when so many ride so badly.

6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other.

Despite not being religious - let he who is without sin, cast the first stone - unfortunately pretty much everyone will consider their driving/riding standard to be at least above average...

and even if we are riding/driving in a manner we would consider courteous - other road users may not see it in the same way. case in point is riding 2 abreast - this enrages so many drivers - yet if we singled out they'd need so much more road length to overtake - they don't seem to consider this. Anyway - overtaking isn't a right - not that this is remembered either.

joenobody

mfin wrote:

Well, you seem to say you are courteous and polite so if you're also riding well, you're not part of the problem, so great.

I didn't say I was riding well (not that you are saying that either). I jumped some red lights on a ride or two recently. At least one was unavoidable (lights with sensor hadn't picked me up and I sat through 3 cycles when I should have seen a green, but didn't, before deciding to press on). One was at 4-way lights where 2 of the ways were building sites that were packed up for the night, and I just didn't want to wait. Another was at a junction where I was turning left and nothing else was. In a few of the situations there were cars around. It's not something I do routinely though - context is key. My behaviour shouldn't reflect on any other cyclists though. I'm no more representative of you as rider than you are of me. It shouldn't be on my shoulders to change my behaviour because some idiot can't draw a distinction between me and someone else on a bike.

In an ideal world yes drivers would drive in the presence of cyclists in such a way that they are safe, I completely agree, but drivers are regularly pushed over the edge by crap examples of cycling, the fact they should not react like that is neither here nor there.

The fact that they should not react like that is not "neither here nor there". That's pretty much excusing their behaviour. No driver should be "pushed over the edge" by the behaviour of any other road user. If you can't control yourself behind the wheel then you shouldn't be behind the wheel. Again, it shouldn't be on my shoulders (or those of any other cyclist) to change my behaviour to address that.

For the times this is a product of crap cycling, it can be solved by better cycling, that's the the part cyclists can help with. Everybody knows there are loads of cases of bad driving when the cyclists have done nothing wrong, but that kind of thing already gets plenty of press and attention. Cyclists riding like t***s doesn't, and it should.

I think you're wrong. For the average, non-cycling, driver bad driving when cyclists have done nothing wrong gets very little press and attention, unless it's a particularly high profile case.

People should consider how they ride, so many ride badly, if you don't think that that is true and contributes to the ill feeling about cyclists then you are in cloud cuckoo land.

I agree that it contributes to the ill feeling about cyclists. I'm arguing that changing cyclists' behaviour won't make a difference to that perception. (Some) drivers will get frustrated by perfectly reasonable cycling behaviour. I'll say it again in case I haven't already made it clear (), it shouldn't be on cyclists to address this situation. It should be on drivers. Again, if the behaviour of other road users make a driver drive dangerously then they shouldn't be on the road.

mfin

No problem. We disagree.

I think it is easy for cyclists to address their riding, and I think the general standard of riding is crap, especially by the default "I don't single out, I have a right to ride two abreast" arrogant kind of self-righteous new wave of roadies you get nowadays. They are everywhere, the standard of cycling has dropped just as quick as the amount of cyclists has risen in my opinion.

It is a shame that these kind of riders who in lots of ways hold people up without so much as a wave of thanks aren't the exact ones who are smacked off by cars driving badly. I can't blame drivers for getting wound up at cyclists when so many ride so badly, not one bit.

Of course, some people will blame them for getting wound up, but those people don't live in the real world.

The more cyclists who either have been injured or know people who have been injured might be a good thing in that those people will start to consider whether they are riding safely and set about doing so. It appears very few cyclists seem to give a shît apart from that, it's always the driver's fault for many.

Here's the crux...

It is so easy for cyclists to ride courteously and safely so it's astounding that they can't do that, and if they insist on pointing the finger at drivers, they can quite easily do that as well, not instead.

timothyw

That's some strong trolling mfin. Perhaps be a bit more subtle next time?

slowbike

mfin wrote:

No problem. We disagree.

I think it is easy for cyclists to address their riding, and I think the general standard of riding is crap, especially by the default "I don't single out, I have a right to ride two abreast" arrogant kind of self-righteous new wave of roadies you get nowadays.

??!

If a driver needs to take to the opposite lane to overtake a cyclist or two - then it's quicker for them to overtake 16 cyclists riding 2 abreast than it is 16 cyclists riding single file.

Pure physics.

Ok - sometimes it's hard for the drivers to see far enough ahead to ensure a safe overtake of a group single file or two abreast - but that's down to the group to either enable the driver to pass (early indication of safe section) or pulling over at a convenient point.

Obviously, if a driver can't get past 2 abreast riders because the road is too narrow when singling out would enable them to do so then the riders should do that - however, sight lines are often too short to enable the driver to overtake safely anyway. The riders then need to consider the duration of that section and their intended course - no point in stopping to let the driver overtake knowing you're coming up to a point where they could've done so anyway - or that the group would be turning off.

Yes - riders do need to be courteous - as do drivers - I think laying the blame primarily at the riders door is uncalled for - most of us do our best and we've got no interest in holding up or inconveniencing drivers - but we shouldn't be expected to jump out of the road every time a car appears on the horizon.

pblakeney

I see enough examples of bad driving from behind the steering wheel of mine when there are no cyclists to be seen that I know where I pin the blame.

joenobody

mfin wrote:

It is a shame that these kind of riders who in lots of ways hold people up without so much as a wave of thanks aren't the exact ones who are smacked off by cars driving badly. I can't blame drivers for getting wound up at cyclists when so many ride so badly, not one bit.

Of course, some people will blame them for getting wound up, but those people don't live in the real world.

I can't fathom this one bit. If you legitimise bad driving that has been precipitated by actual bad cycling it's only a small step in the mind of the driver to legitimise bad driving for perceived bad cycling. And in my experience of talking to people who see cyclists as a problem, their perception is worse than the reality.

On the bit in bold. That's the point right there - it's people driving badly that is the problem. No bad behaviour on the road justifies "losing it". I'm not saying it's unreasonable to get wound up by it, but there mere presence of cyclists should not wind them up, and being wound up should not impact on how they drive. If you can't control your emotions such that you put other road users in danger then you should not be on the road.

Some of these drivers are the ones who invite other drivers to pull over for "a word" when they feel they're a victim of someone else's bad driving, and it doesn't matter if the target of their anger is a cyclist or another driver. There was a video on road.cc the other day that showed two people getting out of a van that had passed too close to a cyclist and clipped him with a wing mirror. Both of the occupants were all up in the face of the cyclist shouting about how he'd hit the van. He had done nothing wrong, although they might have taken offence at his riding in primary. Many drivers aren't like this, but are still prone to losing the plot with cyclists. They are the drivers who feel secure enough in their big metal box that they can bully more vulnerable road users. They are the drivers who believe they have an entitlement to be on the road that cyclists don't/shouldn't have, whether because of "road tax", insurance, licences, registration, etc. No amount of good behaviour will change these drivers' outlooks.

creampie

A £100 fine is now law if a driver is found to be passing to close. How they expect to police it will be interesting. I just bite my bottom lip now when a driver is not being courteous .

peat

Presumably with this new 'You've been framed' portal?

What has been a complete failure is the laws on mobile phone use. There's no-one policing it so it's open season. When i'm on the road, it's pretty sickening at just how many people OBVIOUSLY have a phone in their hand or lap. From my commutes, I have it at about 1 in 8. Head tipped forward, glancing upwards at the road occasionally. If i can register and react in time i'll blast the horn in the vein hope it'll sh1t them up a bit.

milemuncher1

Peat wrote:

Presumably with this new 'You've been framed' portal?

.

gweeds

In the same way that steam gives way to sail, the rule of thumb should be that engine gives way to human.

ben@31

Gweeds wrote:

In the same way that steam gives way to sail, the rule of thumb should be that engine gives way to human.

I think either Belgium or the Netherlands already does this... all cars are legally responsible 100% of the time for avoiding a collision with cyclists. Because cyclists are more vulnerable. As a result their car drivers are probably more careful.

It kind of ties into an earlier post that I made on here that some people have a dangerous driving attitude because they think they can get away with it or they're not aware of the possible outcomes. I seriously think that the Police need to have a word with the haters to remind them they can be prosecuted, fined, banned from driving , prison sentence, etc.

I do get what some people say about bad cyclists going through a red traffic light... you are just giving the haters more ammunition. There's no reason not to stop and wait. Every time I stop at the traffic lights and don't do any filtering, I think the haters must be really gutted they have nothing to complain about.