"to be honest, I don't care about cyclists..."

tangled_metal

john1967 wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Pross wrote:

It is basically impossible for a vehicle to safely pass a cyclist when there is an oncoming vehicle on a standard width single carriageway UK road.

There is if you ride in the gutter where you belong.
Not my argument, but one given to me seriously by an otherwise intelligent person.
Sums up what we are up against.

On my ride the other evening i had the audacity not to be in the gutter and a driver pulled along side me and screamed at me to get there immediately.I would have liked to have been given the right to reply but the driver zoomed away.Im used to this sort of thing now and i wont let it ruin my rides.

Well a few weeks back the driver of an overtaking car slowed down alongside me and two brats leant out the passenger windows on my side to shout at me. They were hanging right out of the windows and asked "are you disabled?" then the driver sped off before I could reply. I was riding a two wheeled recumbent bike. Ignorance of some people.

Mind you being a recumbent rider in an out group of an out group. And nobody can see us in the roads apparently too!

buckles

Gary sparrow wrote:

Never ceases to amaze me the hatred towards cyclists. I often wonder is it pig ignorance or a complete lack of brain cells that makes these people think we are all law breaking paracites who never pay tax . Sadly Selfishness and impatience are rampant in the society we live in .

Pig ignorance, complete lack of brain cells, and jealousy. I think jealousy is a big part of it. Jealous of the freedom to go where we like, filter through traffic etc. for just the cost of the bike and our own energy, while they're sat there fuming and inhaling fumes... and paying £1.37/litre.

God forbid they try it themselves. They might cheer up.

milemuncher1

Buckles wrote:

Gary sparrow wrote:

Never ceases to amaze me the hatred towards cyclists. I often wonder is it pig ignorance or a complete lack of brain cells that makes these people think we are all law breaking paracites who never pay tax . Sadly Selfishness and impatience are rampant in the society we live in .

Pig ignorance, complete lack of brain cells, and jealousy. I think jealousy is a big part of it. Jealous of the freedom to go where we like, filter through traffic etc. for just the cost of the bike and our own energy, while they're sat there fuming and inhaling fumes... and paying £1.37/litre.

God forbid they try it themselves. They might cheer up.

Quite right.

johnmcl7

Gary sparrow wrote:

Buckles wrote:

Someone I work with said cyclists should be shot. Apparently we're all c***s who get in his way (not on OUR way but in HIS way), and should be forced to pay 'road tax' (because ALL motorists pay to use the road apparently) and have insurance (because we cause so much death, damage and destruction). An utter moron.

Never ceases to amaze me the hatred towards cyclists. I often wonder is it pig ignorance or a complete lack of brain cells that makes these people think we are all law breaking paracites who never pay tax . Sadly Selfishness and impatience are rampant in the society we live in .

The best answer I've seen to that question is as follows:

Rachel Aldred, a Westminster University sociologist who studies transport issues, argues that British cyclists suffer because, unlike in countries such as the Netherlands and Denmark, bikes are seen as frivolous, compared with the serious, adult business of driving. She says: “It’s as if you’re doing something you shouldn’t be doing on the roads, almost like you’re playing in the street and getting in the way of the traffic, like you’re a child. There’s also this dual way you can be stigmatised as a cyclist – it was historically seen as something for people with no choice, but now it’s seen as something for people who have a choice. It’s a leisure or play thing that they shouldn’t be doing in this inappropriate place.”

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... t-cyclists

I don't understand the hatred either as I'm fairly new to cycling (started nearly six years ago) but I wasn't ever bothered about cyclists on the road. I saw the pretty much stereotypical forum post recently ranting about how cyclists believe themselves above the law and ignore traffic lights etc. being made on a motoring legal forum whose sole existence was due to many, many drivers ignoring traffic laws but the poster didn't see that contradiction.

haydenm

Sniper68 wrote:

Buckles wrote:

Someone I work with said cyclists should be shot. Apparently we're all c***s who get in his way (not on OUR way but in HIS way), and should be forced to pay 'road tax' (because ALL motorists pay to use the road apparently) and have insurance (because we cause so much death, damage and destruction). An utter moron.

Sadly this seems to be a common theme across the UK.Some of the total hatred I've heard at work really does make you wonder how these people have managed to get through their life without killing a cyclist/pedestrian :oops:

I agree with this. I'm not convinced a lot of people have really truly thought through their opinion of cyclists, there's a lot of talk about running them over and that they shouldn't be on the road but I think most of the poor driving I see is just poor driving because they are oblivious rather than deliberately trying to kill me. I mean, you post one thing about giving space when you pass cyclists and then your 78y/o Aunty Doris starts advocating murder because they are a 'nuisance'. She's an idiot, not a murderer. (Or perhaps both)

The problem is, the more people who go along with it, and the more people like Mr Clarkson say stupid things, the more people hold those opinions and it gives the very rare person who would deliberately hit someone a licence to do it. As if society is on his side.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were more 'accidents' and altercations with bikes after that bellend hit that pedestrian and showed no remorse for it. I think bad press is hugely amplified against cyclists, it makes me doubly angry with fellow cyclists who do go through red lights and things, it all contributes and helps get us killed.

peat

I think cyclists & gypsies/travellers are possibly the only 'groups' left that you can openly make negative remarks about in public without the fear of being labelled a '----ist'.

I've been on the receiving end of unsolicited abuse recently - people literally approaching me and telling me what they saw a cyclist do once or what one said to someone they knew...

Without getting too dramatic, If I were to walk up to a <insert ethnic group> man and lambaste him over <insert stereotypical behaviour of which he had no involvement>, I'd be publicly lynched. And rightly so.

peat

I got into a 'discussion' in my local pub. It essentially descended into people taking it in turns to tell me, 'the cyclist', about how 'we' make 'their' life difficult. The fact that I drive alot too and experience the same situations they described was inconvenient and therefore ignored.

Anyway, one particular gentleman was lamenting being held up by a 'f***ing cyclist' on his way to the next town. There were no opportunities to overtake because of the solid oncoming traffic. I proffered that it was an unrealistic exception in 2018 to be able to go from point A to point B totally unhindered due to increased population density and therefore traffic of all kinds. I said that had there been less cars on the road, overtaking the cyclist would have been easier. I saw a brief flicker in his eyes before he concluded that if the cyclist wasn't there, he wouldn't have been held up. He then turned away and started talking to someone else. Case closed.

Essentially, 'education' is wasted on the entrenched. I don't have optimism that it'll get any better, ever.

lakesluddite

It's essentially the 'bully' instinct that is within us all coming to the fore. Most right minded people can suppress this, having been told over and over again in school that it is wrong to do this, we 'get the message' and keep it locked away. It's telling that many companies and organisations need to have Work-Place Bullying policies.

Unfortunately in many people it resurfaces, driven by ignorance, arrogance and an over-inflated ego (hence why their arguments tend to be 'gets in MY way' not 'OUR way'). When Margaret Thatcher said back in 1987 that 'there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first' then many took that to heart. Me first, everyone else secondary. Our society has largely lost it's collective empathy that we have been told existed during and after the last war. A collective empathy that gave us the NHS and the Welfare state.

We can't expect to change the attitude of these people without somehow installing (or re-installing) a genuine respect for all others throughout the whole of society, without the need to constantly segregate people into groups of 'others'.

God, I'm depressed just writing this, I might just go for a lie down, and try to wake up in 30 years time to see if it's any better.

pblakeney

LakesLuddite wrote:

God, I'm depressed just writing this, I might just go for a lie down, and try to wake up in 30 years time to see if it's any better.

Don't bother.
Look at the average teenager now and their attitude to society. They will be in charge then.

frogonabike

Peat wrote:

I think cyclists & gypsies/travellers are possibly the only 'groups' left that you can openly make negative remarks about in public without the fear of being labelled a '----ist'.

I've been on the receiving end of unsolicited abuse recently - people literally approaching me and telling me what they saw a cyclist do once or what one said to someone they knew...

Without getting too dramatic, If I were to walk up to a <insert ethnic group> man and lambaste him over <insert stereotypical behaviour of which he had no involvement>, I'd be publicly lynched. And rightly so.

and gingers, don't forget the gingers. In fact I think you're a bit ----ist for forgetting us. How dare you.

peat

P!ss off, Rusty! No-one cares what you lot think.

[Dear internet, this was a joke. Incase you missed it.]

ben@31

frogonabike wrote:

Peat wrote:

I think cyclists & gypsies/travellers are possibly the only 'groups' left that you can openly make negative remarks about in public without the fear of being labelled a '----ist'.

I've been on the receiving end of unsolicited abuse recently - people literally approaching me and telling me what they saw a cyclist do once or what one said to someone they knew...

Without getting too dramatic, If I were to walk up to a <insert ethnic group> man and lambaste him over <insert stereotypical behaviour of which he had no involvement>, I'd be publicly lynched. And rightly so.

and Gingers, don't forget the gingers. In fact I think you're a bit ----ist for forgetting us. How dare you.

Most comments Ive heard people say about gingers happened to be just bad humour.
While most comments about cyclists are vile hatred that mention bodily harm or attempted murder.

Ive never heard someone say they'd run a Ginger over.

Pituophis

ben@31 wrote:

frogonabike wrote:

Peat wrote:

I think cyclists & gypsies/travellers are possibly the only 'groups' left that you can openly make negative remarks about in public without the fear of being labelled a '----ist'.

I've been on the receiving end of unsolicited abuse recently - people literally approaching me and telling me what they saw a cyclist do once or what one said to someone they knew...

Without getting too dramatic, If I were to walk up to a <insert ethnic group> man and lambaste him over <insert stereotypical behaviour of which he had no involvement>, I'd be publicly lynched. And rightly so.

and Gingers, don't forget the gingers. In fact I think you're a bit ----ist for forgetting us. How dare you.

Most comments Ive heard people say about gingers happened to be just bad humour.
While most comments about cyclists are vile hatred that mention bodily harm or attempted murder.

Ive never heard someone say they'd run a Ginger over.

You want to read what they think of Brexiteers on this very forum, plenty of genuine hatred there. I often wonder what chaos would errupt if you substituted gay/black/muslim etc, etc for brexiteer in half the posts! :shock:
Many, many people are self centred bigots these days, they just don't know it. :roll:

neeb

Trying to be optimistic - I think we need to have a prominent public debate about the issue whereby it becomes the main topic of conversation in the media for a few weeks, probably preciptated by some event.That seems to be the way that major social change happens nowadays. Look at the Harvey Weinstein case / Me Too movement - for years a certain type of completely unacceptable behaviour was tolerated, trivialised and ignored, but suddenly it is much more difficult to get away with expressing such attitudes (in public at least) because they have been thoroughly exposed for what they are in the full light of public/media scrutiny.

Perhaps such a debate wouldn't just concern cycling but the wider issue of selfish car use with its associated impacts on society through air pollution, obesity and ill-health, accidents and the quality of the urban environment. The logic of the case is overwhelming and it ties in to the debate about how we are going to fund the NHS given the aging population etc.

ben@31

neeb wrote:

Trying to be optimistic - I think we need to have a prominent public debate about the issue whereby it becomes the main topic of conversation in the media for a few weeks, probably preciptated by some event.That seems to be the way that major social change happens nowadays. Look at the Harvey Weinstein case / Me Too movement - for years a certain type of completely unacceptable behaviour was tolerated, trivialised and ignored, but suddenly it is much more difficult to get away with expressing such attitudes (in public at least) because they have been thoroughly exposed for what they are in the full light of public/media scrutiny.

Perhaps such a debate wouldn't just concern cycling but the wider issue of selfish car use with its associated impacts on society through air pollution, obesity and ill-health, accidents and the quality of the urban environment. The logic of the case is overwhelming and it ties in to the debate about how we are going to fund the NHS given the aging population etc.

That is true, it does need to be debated. However all parties need to have their voice heard. The Daily hate mail is very good at writing articles that think harming cyclists is acceptable. However the daily mail never quotes the Police saying "actually this dangerous driving is illegal"

neeb

ben@31 wrote:

That is true, it does need to be debated. However all parties need to have their voice heard. The Daily hate mail is very good at writing articles that think harming cyclists is acceptable. However the daily mail never quotes the Police saying "actually this dangerous driving is illegal"

It needs a critical threshold to be reached after all of the arguments have been had out in public and enough people accept that such opinions are unacceptable. Enough people who have been injured/killed or their familes speaking out prominently and being given a platform by a big segment of the media (BBC etc). Once the argument has been decisively won in public even the DM will have to tow the line (or at least ignore the topic).

mfin

It's the attitudes of cyclists that has to change. Well, the ones who create the bad rap for the rest of us. Cyclists should ride in a way that always holds in mind that they could be holding people up, people who no matter how much you educate them, will be pissed off if they are inconvenienced.

There are a lot less bikes than cars on the road, and a cyclist is going to get in people's way. Once you ride in a manner that is safe, will minimise any inconvenience to drivers, and thanking drivers who have sat behind you, passed you well etc, then you are doing your bit. Unfortunately, what happens is a huge amount of cyclists ride like the ****s they are, and it's difficult to get ****s to stop acting like ****s.

DavidJB

mfin wrote:

It's the attitudes of cyclists that has to change. Well, the ones who create the bad rap for the rest of us. Cyclists should ride in a way that always holds in mind that they could be holding people up, people who no matter how much you educate them, will be pissed off if they are inconvenienced.

There are a lot less bikes than cars on the road, and a cyclist is going to get in people's way. Once you ride in a manner that is safe, will minimise any inconvenience to drivers, and thanking drivers who have sat behind you, passed you well etc, then you are doing your bit. Unfortunately, what happens is a huge amount of cyclists ride like the ****s they are, and it's difficult to get ****s to stop acting like ****s.

This guy :roll:

buckles

What makes me laugh : "cyclists go through red lights"

Yet I see more motorists than cyclists go through red lights, and nobody seems to complain about that.

peat

DavidJB wrote:

mfin wrote:

It's the attitudes of cyclists that has to change. Well, the ones who create the bad rap for the rest of us. Cyclists should ride in a way that always holds in mind that they could be holding people up, people who no matter how much you educate them, will be pissed off if they are inconvenienced.

There are a lot less bikes than cars on the road, and a cyclist is going to get in people's way. Once you ride in a manner that is safe, will minimise any inconvenience to drivers, and thanking drivers who have sat behind you, passed you well etc, then you are doing your bit. Unfortunately, what happens is a huge amount of cyclists ride like the ****s they are, and it's difficult to get ****s to stop acting like ****s.

This guy :roll:

If you think 'we' are beyond scrutiny, you are wrong. There are inconsiderate twunts in every demographic.

A chap i follow on Strava uploaded some ride pictures the other day, a selection of selfies of he and his 2 mates on a ride. Smileing and waving away, in the background a queue of 7 or 8 cars trying to get past. If I was in one of the cars, that would piss me right off, and I consider myself an empathetic driver towards cyclists (by dint of being one). That sort of of carry on does none of us any favors.

thegreatdivide

Pituophis wrote:

You want to read what they think of Brexiteers on this very forum, plenty of genuine hatred there. I often wonder what chaos would errupt if you substituted gay/black/muslim etc, etc for brexiteer in half the posts! :shock:
Many, many people are self centred bigots these days, they just don't know it. :roll:

I have no doubt in my mind that the numerically named entity and very right wing poster would love to insert said substitutions. Little F@scist 'I'm Alright Jack' Britain in full effect. I genuinely hope that a family of Muslim refugees with a gay son get fast tracked British passports, move in next door to him and start voting Labour. His grubby little world would implode.

neeb

mfin wrote:

It's the attitudes of cyclists that has to change. Well, the ones who create the bad rap for the rest of us.

As has been said and is obvious,there both drivers and cyclists who have bad attitudes (both are a fairly random section of humanity). Most drivers and most cyclists are sensible and considerate. The problem is that on the road drivers are in a position of power through being much less vulnerable, and it's the abuse of that power in a totally unacceptable way that's the problem.

mfin wrote:

Cyclists should ride in a way that always holds in mind that they could be holding people up, people who no matter how much you educate them, will be pissed off if they are inconvenienced.

True. But it's absurd, bordering on obscene, to compare irritation at being held up for 2 or 3 minutes to having one's life seriously and deliberately endangered.

mfin wrote:

There are a lot less bikes than cars on the road,

Yes - well THAT is the problem, isn't it? At least in cities that should not be the case.

mfin

Ok, I got it wrong. Cyclists should not worry if they ride in such a manner that inconveniences others, in fact they should be able to ride however they like because they have a right to be on the road. They should not be bothered about holding people up, should not thank people politely who have waited behind them. In fact f*** drivers.

Oh hang on, I got it right, because that's what the **** cyclists do that winds up drivers, the ones who give the rest of us a bad name.

Cyclists that act like complete arrogant ballbags are what causes the problem. Drivers wouldn't get annoyed if cyclists rode courteously and were polite, but the majority do not. In fact, it's just good manners to do it, but a lot of cyclists don't have good manners, what they do have though is an ability to point the finger of blame at drivers all the time.

*I know this might not translate at all to busy commuting, but we're not in the commuting section of the forum.

mfin

DavidJB wrote:

mfin wrote:

It's the attitudes of cyclists that has to change. Well, the ones who create the bad rap for the rest of us. Cyclists should ride in a way that always holds in mind that they could be holding people up, people who no matter how much you educate them, will be pissed off if they are inconvenienced.

There are a lot less bikes than cars on the road, and a cyclist is going to get in people's way. Once you ride in a manner that is safe, will minimise any inconvenience to drivers, and thanking drivers who have sat behind you, passed you well etc, then you are doing your bit. Unfortunately, what happens is a huge amount of cyclists ride like the ****s they are, and it's difficult to get ****s to stop acting like ****s.

This guy :roll:

You'd have to be a dipshit or naive to not agree. Try reading it again, I'm not pointing the finger at all cyclists, not at all, there are lots of polite cyclists who ride well.

neeb

mfin wrote:

Ok, I got it wrong. Cyclists should not worry if they ride in such a manner that inconveniences others, in fact they should be able to ride however they like because they have a right to be on the road. They should not be bothered about holding people up, should not thank people politely who have waited behind them. In fact f*** drivers.

Oh hang on, I got it right, because that's what the **** cyclists do that winds up drivers, the ones who give the rest of us a bad name.

Cyclists that act like complete arrogant ballbags are what causes the problem. Drivers wouldn't get annoyed if cyclists rode courteously and were polite, but the majority do not. In fact, it's just good manners to do it, but a lot of cyclists don't have good manners, what they do have though is an ability to point the finger of blame at drivers all the time.

*I know this might not translate at all to busy commuting, but we're not in the commuting section of the forum.

Now you are just ranting incoherently but as far as I can gather your argument is basically that *most* cyclists ride inconsiderately while *most* drivers drive considerately. That's just not true. If you think it is you will have to come up with some evidence.

Even if that was the case it would be tangentially relevant - being arrogant and irritating doesn't gave anyone the right to endanger your life, you might as well say that arrogant inconsiderate women deserve to be sexually assualted.

mfin

No my argument is not "basically that *most* cyclists ride inconsiderately while *most* drivers drive considerately", I don't know where you are getting that from at all.

I also didn't say that cyclists being arrogant and irritating gives others the right to endanger their lives either, but they will be put at peril purely because of their riding decisions and approaches. Like it or not, if those cyclists didn't ride like t***s, then low and behold they'd be at less risk. It's very simple. Ride courteously and safely, I can't see what is so difficult about that for people to do unless they are ****s.

pblakeney

Good to know that if I ride courteously and safely then I can dispense of my helmet.
Nice in this heat.

neeb

mfin wrote:

No my argument is not "basically that *most* cyclists ride inconsiderately while *most* drivers drive considerately", I don't know where you are getting that from at all.

I'm getting it from the fact that you think the issue here (your comment on the subject of this thread) is that "It's the attitude of cyclists that has to change". This in response to people reporting completely unacceptable behaviour bordering on dangerously psychopathic by some drivers.

We've already established that there are selfish and irresponsible people amongst both cyclists and drivers. Given the arguments already put forward (that when cyclists are irresponsible it leads to annoyance and irritation but when drivers are irresponsible it leads to risk of, or actual, serious injury or death) I was attempting to make sense of your nonsensical argument by assuming that the only way you could reasonably think that irresponsible behaviour by cyclists was the main issue here would be if you thought it was much more prevalent than such behaviour by drivers.

Clearly I was making the mistake of assuming some underlying if poorly expressed cogency in what you were saying - for that misplaced optimism I apologise.

mfin wrote:

I also didn't say that cyclists being arrogant and irritating gives others the right to endanger their lives either, but they will be put at peril purely because of their riding decisions and approaches. Like it or not, if those cyclists didn't ride like t***s, then low and behold they'd be at less risk. It's very simple. Ride courteously and safely, I can't see what is so difficult about that for people to do unless they are ****s.

If most cyclists are already riding couteously and safely and we take it as a given that there will always be some who don't (you are always going to get some tossers amongst any random sample of humanity), but nonetheless the problem of drivers deliberately endangering the lives of all cyclists remains, how are we going to deal with that? By accepting that as long as any cyclists are riding in an annoying manner that psychopathic behavior by druvers is acceptable, or by trying to make psychopathic behaviour less acceptable?

mfin

neeb wrote:

I was attempting to make sense of your nonsensical argument by assuming that the only way you could reasonably think that irresponsible behaviour by cyclists was the main issue here would be if you thought it was much more prevalent than such behaviour by drivers.

Where have I said that "irresponsible behaviour by cyclists was the main issue here"? ...you've made that up. I've not said that at all.

What I am saying is that the bad cyclists addressing how they act is the most effective route to having a positive impact on the situation.

On here, I think we can assume that most people are cyclists and drivers, and as drivers they are probably considerate to other cyclists when they come across them while driving.

That said, if you're looking for ways to improve the situation by lessening bad driving around bad examples of cycling, the best way is to try to get the cyclists not to create unnecessary danger for themselves by riding in ways that irritate drivers. I find it staggering that so many cyclists are that stupid that they continually think that it's always the drivers fault.

If cyclists rode more courteously and less arrogantly, individual cases of driving that puts them in danger would not happen and overall attitudes towards them as a whole would improve. The best way of making drivers who think cyclists are complete ****s by default is not to ride like a complete ****s. The more examples of cyclists being courteous and waving to say thanks when drivers wait for them that drivers see the more they might think better of all cyclists.

I do however accept that people don't change and road users that are self-righteous idiots don't change really, so a lot of it is just hypothetical and nothing more.

I see no negative at all in cyclists trying to be more considerate and friendly on the road though.

neeb wrote:

If most cyclists are already riding couteously and safely and we take it as a given that there will always be some who don't (you are always going to get some tossers amongst any random sample of humanity), but nonetheless the problem of drivers deliberately endangering the lives of all cyclists remains, how are we going to deal with that? By accepting that as long as any cyclists are riding in an annoying manner that psychopathic behavior by druvers is acceptable, or by trying to make psychopathic behaviour less acceptable?

Addressing the psychopathic behaviour of drivers is difficult, you'll never eliminate the extreme cases. I always think the first route is don't give drivers any unnecessary cause to get wound up. We know people are impatient and we know cyclists hold people up, this is the whole route of the problem. So keeping the inconvenience to a minimum will always help. What doesn't help is thinking because the driver is at fault that you couldn't have helped the situation in the first place.

Cyclists need to wise up and do everything that they can do themselves to help.

peat

Tbf, even the most considerate cyclist will still be in someone's way at some point. It's unavoidable. I think for the more vehemently anti-cyclist brigade, the only solution is to have us off the road completely. (Then they can still sit in all the car traffic and do mental gymnastics to still blame bicycles....)

I do agree that some cyclists and posters on here are keen to throw blame in every direction except towards themselves. That's human nature. There are things we can do to at least show 'willing' to the following cars that we are not out there TO hold them up. But i don't think sweary ranting is going to get many people on-side...