Pinot DNS for TDF

No_Ta_Doctor

Rick Chasey wrote:

I don’t think only looking at winners is good either given how narrow the sample is.

Speaking of narrow samples, the UCI rankings are based on the top 8 riders only.
If you continued your logical widening of the sample to all riders then your points difference between France and GB would be huge. Which makes my point that if you want to judge success on having a load of relatively mediocre riders taking points from mediocre races then France are very successful.

Last French winner of a WT stage race (correct this if my Wikipedia trawl is wrong, I'm not Rich)?
Alaphilippe - ToC in '16.
Before that?
Moreau won the Dauphine in '01 and '07
Before that?
Jalabert.....

France are one of the great nations of cycling, this is poor.

davidof

No tA Doctor wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I don’t think only looking at winners is good either given how narrow the sample is.

Speaking of narrow samples, the UCI rankings are based on the top 8 riders only.
If you continued your logical widening of the sample to all riders then your points difference between France and GB would be huge. Which makes my point that if you want to judge success on having a load of relatively mediocre riders taking points from mediocre races then France are very successful.

Last French winner of a WT stage race (correct this if my Wikipedia trawl is wrong, I'm not Rich)?
Alaphilippe - ToC in '16.
Before that?
Moreau won the Dauphine in '01 and '07
Before that?
Jalabert.....

France are one of the great nations of cycling, this is poor.

Success in the classics is not exactly thick on the ground recently

Paris Roubaix: Frédéric Guesdon 1997
MSN: Arnaud Démare 2016
Gent–Wevelgem: Philippe Gaumont 1997
Tour of Flanders: Jacky Durand 1992
La Flèche Wallonne : Julien Alaphilippe 2018
Liège–Bastogne–Liège: Bernard Hinault 1980
Giro di Lombardia: Laurent Jalabert 1997
Omloop Het Nieuwsblad: No French winner
Milan - Turin: Henri Pélissier 1911+
Amstel Gold: Hinault 1980
Clásica de San Sebastián: Tony Gallopin 2013





+ no actually that's a joke it was JaJa in 1997.

No_Ta_Doctor

davidof wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I don’t think only looking at winners is good either given how narrow the sample is.

Speaking of narrow samples, the UCI rankings are based on the top 8 riders only.
If you continued your logical widening of the sample to all riders then your points difference between France and GB would be huge. Which makes my point that if you want to judge success on having a load of relatively mediocre riders taking points from mediocre races then France are very successful.

Last French winner of a WT stage race (correct this if my Wikipedia trawl is wrong, I'm not Rich)?
Alaphilippe - ToC in '16.
Before that?
Moreau won the Dauphine in '01 and '07
Before that?
Jalabert.....

France are one of the great nations of cycling, this is poor.

Success in the classics is not exactly thick on the ground recently

Paris Roubaix: Frédéric Guesdon 1997
MSN: Arnaud Démare 2016
Gent–Wevelgem: Philippe Gaumont 1997
Tour of Flanders: Jacky Durand 1992
La Flèche Wallonne : Julien Alaphilippe 2018
Liège–Bastogne–Liège: Bernard Hinault 1980
Giro di Lombardia: Laurent Jalabert 1997
Omloop Het Nieuwsblad: No French winner
Milan - Turin: Henri Pélissier 1911+
Amstel Gold: Hinault 1980
Clásica de San Sebastián: Tony Gallopin 2013





+ no actually that's a joke it was JaJa in 1997.

To be fair, quite a few of those don't have a GB winner at all.

Does seem to reinforce the point that part of the issue is French teams - Alaphilippe most recent classic winner and most recent stage race winner, .....riding for Quick-Step.

DeadCalm

If Chris Froome had taken up Italian citizenship as he was apparently rumored to be considering whilst at Barloworld, how would Britain be looking in terms of wins?

No_Ta_Doctor

DeadCalm wrote:

If Chris Froome had taken up Italian citizenship as he was apparently rumored to be considering whilst at Barloworld, how would Britain be looking in terms of wins?

If my aunt had balls....

davidof

No tA Doctor wrote:

To be fair, quite a few of those don't have a GB winner at all.

Sure, but I'm not batting for Britain, I'm just surprised that France isn't winning more It does seem to be a post Festina issue.

DeVlaeminck

No tA Doctor wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

If Chris Froome had taken up Italian citizenship as he was apparently rumored to be considering whilst at Barloworld, how would Britain be looking in terms of wins?

If my aunt had balls....

Actually these days that is no longer necessarily true . In any case though if she had never lived in the UK it'd be a stretch to say she owed whatever she was to this country.

andyp

As this is the best Pinot thread on here, it seems it's the right place to say that he's confirmed today that he'll retire at the end of the 2023 season.

tailwindhome

I've never really got the social media/ Twitter Pinot love in.

A bog standard rider

wakemalcolm

tailwindhome said:

A bog standard rider

......with a tour podium and a monument. Not too shoddy for a lonely goatherd. I'd have those achievements celebrated in my bog any day.

ddraver

Tim Henman with a sexy frrrrench accent...

(Pronounced "accs-ant")

tailwindhome

wakemalcolm said:

tailwindhome said:

A bog standard rider

......with a tour podium and a monument. Not too shoddy for a lonely goatherd. I'd have those achievements celebrated in my bog any day.

I think it's this whole 'lonely goatherd' vibe that leaves me cold.

andyrr

tailwindhome said:

I've never really got the social media/ Twitter Pinot love in.

A bog standard rider

Not sure if bog standard riders generally end their careers with a 3rd o/a at the tour, a win at Il Lombardia, Criterium International and Tour of the Alps plus stages at the Vuelta, Giro and tour? In a number of GTs he flattered to deceive, going well before some malady resulted in a bad day followed by further tumbling down the GC but as one of the few French GC riders of his generation he inevitably and unfortunately got hyped for glory.

wakemalcolm

tailwindhome said:

I think it's this whole 'lonely goatherd' vibe that leaves me cold.

Fair comment. I guess it depends on whether you're old enough to consider getting your strings pulled by Julie Andrews each Christmas to be a good thing.

rick_chasey

tailwindhome said:

wakemalcolm said:

tailwindhome said:

A bog standard rider

......with a tour podium and a monument. Not too shoddy for a lonely goatherd. I'd have those achievements celebrated in my bog any day.

I think it's this whole 'lonely goatherd' vibe that leaves me cold.

No fan either but isn't it the standard mercurial talent - that when the stars align he is is world class? Like that stage where he won on the Tourmalet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1Thu7ChmVk

rick_chasey

Helps that he's quite good looking.

andyrac

The great enigma of French cycling; a GT podium, and a Monument win is something most riders would sign up for. However, I can't quite decide whether he over achieved, or under achieved.

Did his talent warrant more, or was that a fair reflection on his abilities? His well known issues with descending earlier in his career didn't help, but he worked on it, and appeared to be a lot better, especially when winning Il Lombardia.

The 2019 Tour sort of sums him up; in a great position to challenge for the win, and then he injures his knee....A glorious failure, celebrated by many....

And as ever, what could he have done on a non French/ more professional team? We'll never know.....

ddraver

So who takes over the lineage of Voeckler, Pinot,...?

hanshotfirst

tailwindhome said:

I've never really got the social media/ Twitter Pinot love in.

A bog standard rider

Always had a soft spot for him because he podium'd in the first Tour I ever watched, was the year I fell in love with the sport. Liked the rider, loved that FDJ kit that year too so just always wanted him to do well.

I get he was overhyped because he was a French rider with GT winning potential, (at least he had Bardet to share the heat with), but he was far from bog standard was he?

hanshotfirst

ddraver said:

So who takes over the lineage of Voeckler, Pinot,...?

Gaudu surely, no?

RichN95.

If Pinot was Danish or German, for example, no-one would pay much attention to him. But because he's French he gets fawned over as some romantic hero. The backwardness and unwillingness to maximise his talents by him and his team are rebranded as virtues. In truth he occasional had a good moments once or twice a year, but he was a lesser version of Dan Martin. And not afraid to play the 'doping foreigners' card to explain another failure. He's everything that's wrong with French cycling embodied in one man.

tailwindhome

If I've filtered the list correctly, this is the all time ranking per PCS of active riders

Bog standard may be harsh, but he's a ways off top tier

andyp

RichN95. said:

If Pinot was Danish or German, for example, no-one would pay much attention to him. But because he's French he gets fawned over as some romantic hero. The backwardness and unwillingness to maximise his talents by him and his team are rebranded as virtues. In truth he occasional had a good moments once or twice a year, but he was a lesser version of Dan Martin. And not afraid to play the 'doping foreigners' card to explain another failure. He's everything that's wrong with French cycling embodied in one man.

This is total and utter b*llocks and is seemingly based on prejudice rather than reality. Pinot has 33 wins, to Martin's 22, and has a better record in GTs. For a climber without much of a sprint, Pinot has a lot of wins, and the quality is high, with a lot of those wins at World Tour level. He's consistently won outside of France too, which can't be said for a lot of French stars.

FDJ are, despite Madiot's cultivated image, arguably the most progressive French team and whilst Pinot might not be at the leading edge of training and nutrition science, he's been consistently competitive for ten years when the sport has evolved enormously.

andyp

tailwindhome said:

If I've filtered the list correctly, this is the all time ranking per PCS of active riders

Bog standard may be harsh, but he's a ways off top tier

That mainly shows the weakness of a single points system to rank active riders rather than a lack of palmares for Pinot. He's won as many monuments as Greg Van Avermaet but has almost twice as many GT stage wins, for example.

ddraver

andyp said:

FDJ are, despite Madiot's cultivated image, arguably the most progressive French team

RichN95.

andyp said:

This is total and utter b*llocks and is seemingly based on prejudice rather than reality. Pinot has 33 wins, to Martin's 22, and has a better record in GTs. For a climber without much of a sprint, Pinot has a lot of wins, and the quality is high, with a lot of those wins at World Tour level. He's consistently won outside of France too, which can't be said for a lot of French stars.

Their palmares are very similar.

They have both won Lombardia, Martin has also won LBL (2 v 4 on monument podums).
Pinot has 5 GT top tens, Martin has 6.
Pinot has won 6 GT stages, Martin has five.
Pinot has three podiums in major one week races, Martin has 8 (one win)
Pinot has one WT win, Martin has 4 (Including stage WT wins it's 13 v 14)

My apologies for bring facts to an argument rather the prejudice you expected.

If Pinot was a football team he'd be West Ham. There's something traditional about them, with old fashioned bosses like Redknapp, Alladyce and Moyes. Occasionally they can be brilliant. Often they are dogturd. But no-one thinks they are going win anything. But the press don't fawn over them like they do Pinot.

(PS I'm a West Ham fan)

kingstongraham

If he was a footballer he'd be Theo Walcott.

m.r.m.

RichN95. said:

If Pinot was Danish or German, for example, no-one would pay much attention to him. But because he's French he gets fawned over as some romantic hero. The backwardness and unwillingness to maximise his talents by him and his team are rebranded as virtues. In truth he occasional had a good moments once or twice a year, but he was a lesser version of Dan Martin. And not afraid to play the 'doping foreigners' card to explain another failure. He's everything that's wrong with French cycling embodied in one man.

I was just about to say. Isn't he the GT version of Dan Martin? Though i'd take a less harsh stance. Mine is more a, "He should have won more, shame he didn't".

m.r.m.

RichN95. said:

andyp said:

This is total and utter b*llocks and is seemingly based on prejudice rather than reality. Pinot has 33 wins, to Martin's 22, and has a better record in GTs. For a climber without much of a sprint, Pinot has a lot of wins, and the quality is high, with a lot of those wins at World Tour level. He's consistently won outside of France too, which can't be said for a lot of French stars.

Their palmares are very similar.

They have both won Lombardia, Martin has also won LBL (2 v 4 on monument podums).
Pinot has 5 GT top tens, Martin has 6.
Pinot has won 6 GT stages, Martin has five.
Pinot has three podiums in major one week races, Martin has 8 (one win)
Pinot has one WT win, Martin has 4 (Including stage WT wins it's 13 v 14)

My apologies for bring facts to an argument rather the prejudice you expected.

If Pinot was a football team he'd be West Ham. There's something traditional about them, with old fashioned bosses like Redknapp, Alladyce and Moyes. Occasionally they can be brilliant. Often they are dogturd. But no-one thinks they are going win anything. But the press don't fawn over them like they do Pinot.

(PS I'm a West Ham fan)

The West Ham comparison doesn't work. No one cares about West Ham, many do about Pinot. Wouldn't he rather be Chelsea in the Gianfranco Zola era?

davidof

Dunno if he'd have won more with a bigger team. At sky he'd have been a super domestic I guess. He is mentally a bit fragile - which shows up in his moaning about people beating him being on the fringes of doping, or worse - then again maybe he has a point.

Bardet looked to be the better rider. Great descender and climber. Good in the classics but with just the Polka Dots as a major win. Romain at least made the decision to get out of a French team but too long at AG2R I think.