Pinot DNS for TDF
Comments
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The thing is though that up to and including under 23 level there doesn't seem to be a problem. France are churning out talent at a rate to rival any country in the world.Rick Chasey wrote:
I think generally there has been less state investment in sport in France compared to the UK.
Corporate money tends to follow the winners rather than the other way around; sky turned up on the road after monster track success beforehand.
The UK committed to spending a lot on sport for a long time and that eventually paid off.
I also think there's an element of luck.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
The thing is though that up to and including under 23 level there doesn't seem to be a problem. France are churning out talent at a rate to rival any country in the world.Rick Chasey wrote:
I think generally there has been less state investment in sport in France compared to the UK.
Corporate money tends to follow the winners rather than the other way around; sky turned up on the road after monster track success beforehand.
The UK committed to spending a lot on sport for a long time and that eventually paid off.
I also think there's an element of luck.
Isn't that about the time the funding really kicks in?
Every nation has talents; it's about the conversion, and that's what costs.0 -
Take away Froome who has never lived in this country and are the UK really much ahead of France ? OK maybe a bit but as mentioned we have poured money into sport. Frankly who cares - the French do OK and have some really good exciting riders to cheer on I don't see the problem.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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I think the French have a problem even if you don't. It seems that every year cycling slips further down the scale of popular sports in France and a star rider could change that.1
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How is the success of UK vs. France in the past 10 years even comparable? France has done diddly squat compared to the UK (I have no skin in the game); and even in terms of future prospects Columbia, Belgium and the UK seem miles ahead of France. I think Rich's analysis of the problems of French cycling is extremely apt.DeVlaeminck wrote:Take away Froome who has never lived in this country and are the UK really much ahead of France ? OK maybe a bit but as mentioned we have poured money into sport. Frankly who cares - the French do OK and have some really good exciting riders to cheer on I don't see the problem.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230 -
isnt why this Elissonde joined Sky? To be on a higher level team that wins GT races0
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inseine wrote:I think the French have a problem even if you don't. It seems that every year cycling slips further down the scale of popular sports in France and a star rider could change that.
well the traditional white working class hintergrund of pro cycling is dying out in France, the replacement are North Africans who prefer football, France has done quite well in football over the last couple of decades.BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
Instagramme0 -
M.R.M. wrote:
How is the success of UK vs. France in the past 10 years even comparable? France has done diddly squat compared to the UK (I have no skin in the game); and even in terms of future prospects Columbia, Belgium and the UK seem miles ahead of France. I think Rich's analysis of the problems of French cycling is extremely apt.DeVlaeminck wrote:Take away Froome who has never lived in this country and are the UK really much ahead of France ? OK maybe a bit but as mentioned we have poured money into sport. Frankly who cares - the French do OK and have some really good exciting riders to cheer on I don't see the problem.
Did I say in the last 10 years ? I said if you take away Froome who doesn't really owe his development to the UK they aren't that far behind the UK - present tense - they have some good riders like Bardet, Pinot, Allaphillippe, Gallopin etc.
I don't see that as miles behind the current riders the UK has produced.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
DeVlaeminck wrote:M.R.M. wrote:
How is the success of UK vs. France in the past 10 years even comparable? France has done diddly squat compared to the UK (I have no skin in the game); and even in terms of future prospects Columbia, Belgium and the UK seem miles ahead of France. I think Rich's analysis of the problems of French cycling is extremely apt.DeVlaeminck wrote:Take away Froome who has never lived in this country and are the UK really much ahead of France ? OK maybe a bit but as mentioned we have poured money into sport. Frankly who cares - the French do OK and have some really good exciting riders to cheer on I don't see the problem.
Did I say in the last 10 years ? I said if you take away Froome who doesn't really owe his development to the UK they aren't that far behind the UK - present tense - they have some good riders like Bardet, Pinot, Allaphillippe, Gallopin etc.
I don't see that as miles behind the current riders the UK has produced.
Can I just chuck Cavendish into the mix then, he's only a couple of years older than Gallopin?
They may not be that far behind but.... well it's a race, isn't it? The aim is to win, and French riders aren't really winning much. Alaphilippe probably will win a fair amount, Bardet *should* win some stage races and maybe even a GT. But it's mainly potential at the moment: podiums, a few stages, a couple of days in a leaders jersey, the odd classic.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:Can I just chuck Cavendish into the mix then
No, no you may not because I was just about to say "what about Cav?"
Correlation is not causation.0 -
If you mention Cav (which you should), you have to also mention Wiggins and the gap then grows even more. France to cycling is like England to football (until very recently at least).PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230
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In terms of wins this season at events where the World Teams and the Professional Teams took part, so far over 30 French riders have managed wins (63 wins between them, Laporte being tops with 6), whereas only 8 Brits have managed wins (16 wins between them, Simon Yates being tops with 4).
I think the final end-of-season figures in recent years had pretty much the same ratios, i.e. the French had 4x more wins by 4x more riders than the Brits.
When talking about success, how it's being measured needs to be defined first.0 -
M.R.M. wrote:If you mention Cav (which you should), you have to also mention Wiggins and the gap then grows even more. France to cycling is like England to football (until very recently at least).
And if you mention Wiggins you really have to mention Hinault, Anquetil and Petit-Breton.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Don't really see how going back that much is relevant in a discussion about French cycling now. Wiggins' retirement is hardly that long ago. Cav looks like he is finished, but he is trodding on.
Having to bring them up in a defence of current French cycling, just makes my point for me.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230 -
Certainly not by just equating wins. Otherwise Yuraj Sagan is as good a champion as Philipp Gilbert. :Pknedlicky wrote:In terms of wins this season at events where the World Teams and the Professional Teams took part, so far over 30 French riders have managed wins (63 wins between them, Laporte being tops with 6), whereas only 8 Brits have managed wins (16 wins between them, Simon Yates being tops with 4).
I think the final end-of-season figures in recent years had pretty much the same ratios, i.e. the French had 4x more wins by 4x more riders than the Brits.
When talking about success, how it's being measured needs to be defined first.
(I know Oliver Naesen is the current Belgian champ)PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230 -
RichN95 wrote:A little fact I like mentioning: In the 21st Century the Maindy Flyers junior club in Cardiff has had more Olympic Gold medallists in cycling (all disciplines) than France has.
So that says a couple things.
Above all; that the sample sizes are clearly pretty small, so drawing massively broadcnational attitudes towards procycling probably isn’t wise.
Two, if you ignore one; surely that’s evidence that it really is all about funding?0 -
These stats get distorted by there being lots of French races which few foreign teams turn up to. At World Tour level British riders have eleven wins (S.Yates 5, Froome 3, A.Yates 2, Thomas 1) to France's seven (Alaphilippe 4, Demare 2, Molard 1)knedlicky wrote:In terms of wins this season at events where the World Teams and the Professional Teams took part, so far over 30 French riders have managed wins (63 wins between them, Laporte being tops with 6), whereas only 8 Brits have managed wins (16 wins between them, Simon Yates being tops with 4).
I think the final end-of-season figures in recent years had pretty much the same ratios, i.e. the French had 4x more wins by 4x more riders than the Brits.
When talking about success, how it's being measured needs to be defined first.Twitter: @RichN951 -
RichN95 wrote:
These stats get distorted by there being lots of French races which few foreign teams turn up to. At World Tour level British riders have eleven wins (S.Yates 5, Froome 3, A.Yates 2, Thomas 1) to France's seven (Alaphilippe 4, Demare 2, Molard 1)knedlicky wrote:In terms of wins this season at events where the World Teams and the Professional Teams took part, so far over 30 French riders have managed wins (63 wins between them, Laporte being tops with 6), whereas only 8 Brits have managed wins (16 wins between them, Simon Yates being tops with 4).
I think the final end-of-season figures in recent years had pretty much the same ratios, i.e. the French had 4x more wins by 4x more riders than the Brits.
When talking about success, how it's being measured needs to be defined first.
Theres also the sort of races that are being won, Based on those wins we're more of a mountain climbing country than Columbia!0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:RichN95 wrote:A little fact I like mentioning: In the 21st Century the Maindy Flyers junior club in Cardiff has had more Olympic Gold medallists in cycling (all disciplines) than France has.
So that says a couple things.
Above all; that the sample sizes are clearly pretty small, so drawing massively broadcnational attitudes towards procycling probably isn’t wise.
Two, if you ignore one; surely that’s evidence that it really is all about funding?
It also reflects widespread and longterm enthusiasm for cycling in Cardiff. Plus access to great resources such as Maindy itself, the marshes (scene of multiple weekday chain-gangs), the welsh mountains and of course the velodrome at Newport.
All of that in a concentrated area.
Plus there's quite a bit of road racing accessible from Cardiff.0 -
RichN95 wrote:
These stats get distorted by there being lots of French races which few foreign teams turn up to. At World Tour level British riders have eleven wins (S.Yates 5, Froome 3, A.Yates 2, Thomas 1) to France's seven (Alaphilippe 4, Demare 2, Molard 1)knedlicky wrote:In terms of wins this season at events where the World Teams and the Professional Teams took part, so far over 30 French riders have managed wins (63 wins between them, Laporte being tops with 6), whereas only 8 Brits have managed wins (16 wins between them, Simon Yates being tops with 4).
I think the final end-of-season figures in recent years had pretty much the same ratios, i.e. the French had 4x more wins by 4x more riders than the Brits.
When talking about success, how it's being measured needs to be defined first.
So French cycling is like Newcastle United in football, can dominate in competitions where the talent is limited but as soon as they are put up against the best they start to struggle.0 -
Judging the UK more successful than France in cycling during recent times, as some here are doing, relies on a few major successes by a small number of Brits, while the French have gone almost empty-handed in those big races. But that's being very selective in how one judges success, ignoring others' wins when it suits. Thus why my comment on wins this season.
Yes there are enough good British riders to form a top team for the Olympic road-race or the World Championships, but not a decent reserve team too.
And the individual wins by Brits at the big races have come in teams with mainly foreign support riders and foreign DSs. That's like saying football in England is more successful than elsewhere because a Premier League team wins some European trophy, although the English team is formed largely of foreigners and has a foreign coach. The two don't correlate.0 -
Measuring popularity by the number of people pratising a sport with a licence, between 2000 and 2014, cycling in France slipped down from 20th to 21st (overtaken by badminton); additionally including people pratising a sport with other certification, from 20th to 23rd (also overtaken by kayaking and volleyball). So in neither case, hardly a large slip over 15 years.inseine wrote:It seems that every year cycling slips further down the scale of popular sports in France and a star rider could change that.
Despite what many people think, and despite the Tour de France, cycling has for a long time not been one of the major sports in France, and (mild) popular interest is more or less restricted to just 3 weeks or even only to the day on which the Tour goes through your town.
The above might part explain why there isn't large scale sponsor investment, while the doping of the past (probably more the Festina affair than LA's tricks) still probably affects sponsor confidence in cycling.RichN95 wrote:Why isn't there a French team with a Sky like budget?
There has also always been some hesitancy about heavy sponsorship of sport in France, e.g. sponsorship-naming of football stadiums came much later than in the UK, in fact only about 10 years ago.
Since 2009, when they bought the Champion supermarket chain, Carrefour have sponsored the polka dot jersey at the TdF (Champion were the previous sponsor and Carrefour took over the sponsorship as part of the deal), so Carrefour are involved in cycling in France if not with a team, the jersey is less cost I imagine. They have also sponsored the French national football team for the last 20 years. However they are terminating both sponsorships at the end of this year.RichN95 wrote:4. Find someone with vision and get a big company to back them. Cofidis, AG2R and FdJ are all twenty years old and funded by payday loans and scratchcards. Where are Carrefour or Louis Vuitton?
(While last month Cofidis said they are continuing their team sponsorship next year)0 -
As someone who'se followed pro racing for many years it's still amazing to me that the uk are mentioned in the same breath as France in terms of success. Massive progrees.
Also, I've lived in France for 15 years and it just seems there's less going on here. We've lost all are sportives around Paris and amateur racing seems less supported, whereas the sport is booming in the uk.0 -
A lot of it is to do with what and how you spend it.
U.K. sport spending is particularly skewed towards spending on developing young talent into their pro career.
It’s no coincicdence so many Brit successes have their roots in the track; the success follows quite a linear path when you look at how the funding has worked.1 -
knedlicky wrote:Judging the UK more successful than France in cycling during recent times, as some here are doing, relies on a few major successes by a small number of Brits, while the French have gone almost empty-handed in those big races. But that's being very selective in how one judges success, ignoring others' wins when it suits. Thus why my comment on wins this season.
Yes there are enough good British riders to form a top team for the Olympic road-race or the World Championships, but not a decent reserve team too.
And the individual wins by Brits at the big races have come in teams with mainly foreign support riders and foreign DSs. That's like saying football in England is more successful than elsewhere because a Premier League team wins some European trophy, although the English team is formed largely of foreigners and has a foreign coach. The two don't correlate.
I'm not sure what your criteria for success is. I think Rich has pointed out that the French teams and riders are too insular and that this is a reason for what we see as their failure.
We rightly count Cavendish as a success despite the fact that he gained the vast majority of his road victories on foreign teams. We rightly count Thomas as a success despite the fact his support is largely foreign. We don't count Wout Poels winning a monument for Sky as British success, nor Bernal winning the ToC - despite it being for a British team and with Tao providing superb British support.
French cycling will be a success - in racing terms - when French riders are winning big races. If this is on foreign teams or with foreign support is irrelevant. We're asking why French riders don't win big races, why France hasn't produced an Hinault or Fignon in decades, despite having more teams, riders and races than Britain.
As for success at lower levels - having a lot of decent but not top class riders, teams and races isn't a measure of success, it's a measure of being able to financially support relative mediocrity, which is perhaps what we allude too when we say it's too cushy for French riders.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:knedlicky wrote:Judging the UK more successful than France in cycling during recent times, as some here are doing, relies on a few major successes by a small number of Brits, while the French have gone almost empty-handed in those big races. But that's being very selective in how one judges success, ignoring others' wins when it suits. Thus why my comment on wins this season.
Yes there are enough good British riders to form a top team for the Olympic road-race or the World Championships, but not a decent reserve team too.
And the individual wins by Brits at the big races have come in teams with mainly foreign support riders and foreign DSs. That's like saying football in England is more successful than elsewhere because a Premier League team wins some European trophy, although the English team is formed largely of foreigners and has a foreign coach. The two don't correlate.
I'm not sure what your criteria for success is. I think Rich has pointed out that the French teams and riders are too insular and that this is a reason for what we see as their failure.
We rightly count Cavendish as a success despite the fact that he gained the vast majority of his road victories on foreign teams. We rightly count Thomas as a success despite the fact his support is largely foreign. We don't count Wout Poels winning a monument for Sky as British success, nor Bernal winning the ToC - despite it being for a British team and with Tao providing superb British support.
French cycling will be a success - in racing terms - when French riders are winning big races. If this is on foreign teams or with foreign support is irrelevant. We're asking why French riders don't win big races, why France hasn't produced an Hinault or Fignon in decades, despite having more teams, riders and races than Britain.
As for success at lower levels - having a lot of decent but not top class riders, teams and races isn't a measure of success, it's a measure of being able to financially support relative mediocrity, which is perhaps what we allude too when we say it's too cushy for French riders.
Turn it around; which nations are winning big races?
Surely looking at WT points by nation is a better aggregator of success.
World Tour rankings, 2017
1
BELGIUM
BEL
14600
2
ITALY
ITA
13938
3
FRANCE
FRA
12123
4
SPAIN
ESP
10537
5
NETHERLANDS
NED
10309
6
COLOMBIA
COL
9897
7
AUSTRALIA
AUS
8781
8
GREAT BRITAIN
GBR
8592
9
GERMANY
GER
6453
10
NORWAY
NOR
6130
11
POLAND
POL
5559
12
SLOVENIA
SLO
50250 -
Rick Chasey wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:knedlicky wrote:Judging the UK more successful than France in cycling during recent times, as some here are doing, relies on a few major successes by a small number of Brits, while the French have gone almost empty-handed in those big races. But that's being very selective in how one judges success, ignoring others' wins when it suits. Thus why my comment on wins this season.
Yes there are enough good British riders to form a top team for the Olympic road-race or the World Championships, but not a decent reserve team too.
And the individual wins by Brits at the big races have come in teams with mainly foreign support riders and foreign DSs. That's like saying football in England is more successful than elsewhere because a Premier League team wins some European trophy, although the English team is formed largely of foreigners and has a foreign coach. The two don't correlate.
I'm not sure what your criteria for success is. I think Rich has pointed out that the French teams and riders are too insular and that this is a reason for what we see as their failure.
We rightly count Cavendish as a success despite the fact that he gained the vast majority of his road victories on foreign teams. We rightly count Thomas as a success despite the fact his support is largely foreign. We don't count Wout Poels winning a monument for Sky as British success, nor Bernal winning the ToC - despite it being for a British team and with Tao providing superb British support.
French cycling will be a success - in racing terms - when French riders are winning big races. If this is on foreign teams or with foreign support is irrelevant. We're asking why French riders don't win big races, why France hasn't produced an Hinault or Fignon in decades, despite having more teams, riders and races than Britain.
As for success at lower levels - having a lot of decent but not top class riders, teams and races isn't a measure of success, it's a measure of being able to financially support relative mediocrity, which is perhaps what we allude too when we say it's too cushy for French riders.
Turn it around; which nations are winning big races?
Surely looking at WT points by nation is a better aggregator of success.
World Tour rankings, 2017
1
BELGIUM
BEL
14600
2
ITALY
ITA
13938
3
FRANCE
FRA
12123
4
SPAIN
ESP
10537
5
NETHERLANDS
NED
10309
6
COLOMBIA
COL
9897
7
AUSTRALIA
AUS
8781
8
GREAT BRITAIN
GBR
8592
9
GERMANY
GER
6453
10
NORWAY
NOR
6130
11
POLAND
POL
5559
12
SLOVENIA
SLO
5025
I'm reluctant to use WT points aggregation as a measure of success due to the way they're handed out for crappy positions that nobody cares about. In what world are 6 10th place finishes in E3 Harelbeke, Fleche Wallone etc. worth more than winning a monument or Paris-Nice? That's the very definition of rewarding mediocrity. Not to mention that winning the Tour down Under gets you the same points as Flanders. Sure a rider picking up 10th places is worth watching and might get a result, but if Sagan, Cavendish, GVA etc would consider it a failure then why should we consider it success? If the French riders consider it success (and not a good result for u23 neopro as a marker of potential) then no wonder they're not winning races.
http://inrng.com/2016/01/new-uci-rankings-system/Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
