Discs: Big thread?

rick_chasey · May 2018

Veronese68 wrote:

3wheeler wrote:

JAMIE4759 wrote:

...
Now that disc brakes on road bikes have been around for a few years, how are those that use them finding them? ...

It's always funny how many people who don't have (or want) disc brakes feel the need to post on a thread about them.

Indeed, the naysayers are those without discs, not many with discs that don't like them. We had one that had a squealing issue on a ride and MM waffling about having to carry a muckspreader and idiots being unable to cope with differences in braking ability. The fact that the difference in braking ability negates the stuff being spouted about rim brakes being so good you don't need better brakes seems lost on the naysayers. Presumably this is because they are too good to need better brakes or maybe some of it is BS.
I've got discs, I think they're great.

I don't think anyone really disagrees that discs are better.

It's more, I have a real sense that there is a decent proportion of riders who don't know how to ride properly and a lot of it comes down to how they use their brakes.

I have a theory that the people who feel they really really need disk brakes and are a lot more comfortable on them are likely to be that type of rider.

There are many things I'd spend the money on for disc brakes first.

The riders who I rate who use them usually go "s'alright. a bit better. useful in winter." which sounds about right.

veronese68 · May 2018

Rick Chasey wrote:

I don't think anyone really disagrees that discs are better.

Not as many on this thread as usual, it's the I can lock a wheel with rim brakes so can't have better brakes argument that makes me laugh.

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's more, I have a real sense that there is a decent proportion of riders who don't know how to ride properly and a lot of it comes down to how they use their brakes.
I have a theory that the people who feel they really really need disk brakes and are a lot more comfortable on them are likely to be that type of rider. .

Quite possibly.

Rick Chasey wrote:

There are many things I'd spend the money on for disc brakes first..

I don't think you are anywhere near the average punter.

Rick Chasey wrote:

The riders who I rate who use them usually go "s'alright. a bit better. useful in winter." which sounds about right.

Admittedly my old bike had sh!t rim brakes, it was a Kona Jake with cantis. Discs were a big improvement when commuting through winter. The thing that really tipped me into getting a bike with discs was after I broke my finger I had better braking with a hand that was not at full strength.
I'm not the most experienced, but I don't think I'm a complete numpty.

milemuncher1 · May 2018

Here’s the only disc braked bike I own at the moment. In the conditions in which it works best ( not in a group with mixed braking systems, or on a ‘road bike’). I agree the hydraulic brakes work much better, in the environment which suits them best.

rick_chasey · May 2018

Veronese68 wrote:

Admittedly my old bike had sh!t rim brakes, it was a Kona Jake with cantis. Discs were a big improvement when commuting through winter. The thing that really tipped me into getting a bike with discs was after I broke my finger I had better braking with a hand that was not at full strength.
I'm not the most experienced, but I don't think I'm a complete numpty.

Sure.

Thing is, well looked after decent rim brakes do enough of a good job that I'm not worrying about my braking distances or braking generally.

So, probably, I could improve my braking with discs. No point arguing. But to what end? Most of the time, especially now, I'm braking maybe for a total of 15 seconds of a 35 minute commute. So I'm marginally improving 15 seconds? 0.007% of my time riding.

Then some of you may have big long descents where braking is more of an issue; get it wrong and you're on the floor or in a ravine. Again, you're gonna get some marginal improvment, but am I worrying about my braking with well set up brakes? Not really; i'm more interested in getting to the descent sooner, and achieving a higher max speed when I am bombing downhill. None of those are really impacted by the brakes I'm not worrying about, save for braking maybe 3m later for a hairpin.

If you're worrying about braking all the time (and not because you may not be able to squeeze it because your finger is broken), chances are, you're braking too much, and your priorities are wrong. Totally unscientifically, I've noticed a ovlerlap between these people and people who spent a lot of time on the tarmac.

I also have a less developed theory that the deep pocketed newer rider has spent more time using brakes on a car than on a bike, and so has a more natural affinity with disc brakes, but I imagine there are holes in that.

Anyway, point is, surely, surely, you lot have some more important things to worry about than the narrow gains of disc brakes? Perhaps, even, spending less time braking entirely?

It really ought to be way down the priority list. Lighter kit, better fitting clothes, better running gears, more grippy tyres, better position, learning how to anticipate and avoid wasting energy by braking, etc etc etc.

veronese68 · May 2018

I think I agree with most of what you say Rick. The times I want better braking are more when idiots step out in front of me when I’m just trying to get to or from work, not so much when I’m just out on a ride. I also do use the bike off road at times, again not relevant for a lot of people.
Your point about better tyres is probably the most relevant when talking about brakes. How many people say they want good brakes but keep hard OE tyres with poor grip?

svetty · May 2018

Milemuncher1 wrote:

It’s a pad spreader. As soon as I pushed it in between the pads, and put the wheel back in, it stopped the squealing. I have to remember to take it with me if I’m riding the bike with the disc brakes, because it happens every time I take the wheels out to fix a puncture.

MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

svetty · May 2018

dstev55 wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

dstev55 wrote:

I've never been involved in an accident either with just myself or anyone else in 3 years of riding so I'm safe in the knowledge I group ride in a safe and considerate manner.

There’s the kicker – you’ve only been riding for three years. If you think you’re safe you’re living in a dream. Everyone crashes eventually. It’s the nature of the sport you’ve chosen. Looking back at my crashes have I ever thought if I’d had discs that would never have happened? Nope.

So how many years do I have to be riding to become a safe rider? Please let me know sò I can put the date in my diary.... :roll:

In my experience once you've been riding regularly for a couple of years you will either have worked out how to ride properly in a group or you never will. Some people are just untrainable......

neeb · May 2018

green_mark wrote:

neeb wrote:

I don't count greater tyre clearances as an advantage of discs because this is nothing to do with the nature or discs vs. rim brakes, just the availability of long-drop rim brakes, which tend not to be fitted as standard on road bikes. My winter bike has rim brakes that can cope with 35mm cyclocross tyres if I take the mudguards off.

You're missing out that long-drop calipers have less leverage and therefore less braking power than short-reach calipers, which in turn are poorer than discs. So there is a big advantage of discs in providing larger tyre clearances without decreasing braking power.

And with those larger tyres you get better braking performance on both dry and wet - larger equals gripper equals more braking force before you have an uncontrolled skid.

OK, I'll conceed that this may be an advantage of discs if you are running *very* wide tyres (30mm plus). But many current rim brake bikes with normal-drop calipers (direct mount or otherwise) can take 28mm tyres without any trouble. Wider than that and you are into non-optimal territiory for fast road riding on even half decent tarmac. And long drop brakes still work OK.

dstev55 · May 2018

thegreatdivide wrote:

dstev55 wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

dstev55 wrote:

I've never been involved in an accident either with just myself or anyone else in 3 years of riding so I'm safe in the knowledge I group ride in a safe and considerate manner.

There’s the kicker – you’ve only been riding for three years. If you think you’re safe you’re living in a dream. Everyone crashes eventually. It’s the nature of the sport you’ve chosen. Looking back at my crashes have I ever thought if I’d had discs that would never have happened? Nope.

So how many years do I have to be riding to become a safe rider? Please let me know sò I can put the date in my diary.... :roll:

Read my post again.

But how does you stating that everyone crashes eventually have anything to do with me being a safe group rider and disc brakes? There's no link. :?: :?

chippyk · May 2018

Milemuncher1 wrote:

jimmurray wrote:

Milemuncher1 wrote:

jimmurray wrote:

My ride was ruined on Saturday because of issues with front disk brake, shimano hydraulic, on my Tarmac. Screaming and resonating off and on throughout the ride. Only sure way to stop it was to ride out of saddle with weight over front wheel or ride with front brake lightly applied.

I’ve had that, it’s beyond irritating.

Did you find out why it was doing it and how to fixt it? I had 11 hours of it on Saturday.

It was doing it because the pads weren’t completely flat in the calipers. I bought one of these.

It’s a pad spreader. As soon as I pushed it in between the pads, and put the wheel back in, it stopped the squealing. I have to remember to take it with me if I’m riding the bike with the disc brakes, because it happens every time I take the wheels out to fix a puncture.

That’s going to sting a bit if you fall off and land on it.

mike1-2 · May 2018

My thoughts on discs. I like having them, therefore I do. I don’t need them, nor do I think they are a huge improvement on either of my other two rim braked road bikes, but I still like them.

neeb · May 2018

Mike wrote:

My thoughts on discs. I like having them, therefore I do. I don’t need them, nor do I think they are a huge improvement on either of my other two rim braked road bikes, but I still like them.

Best reason for having discs on this thread so far..

Same reason I have a light bike.

All modern bikes work. Manufacturers should make lots of different types of bikes to keep everyone happy..

<edit> just be careful not to buy a bike you don't like because of what someone said on an internet forum..

milemuncher1 · May 2018

ChippyK wrote:

That’s going to sting a bit if you fall off and land on it.

That would take some doing, it’s usually stowed in the bar / frame bags.

bikegangster · May 2018

Time for a rim/disc essay! Here's my experience. I used to own a flat bar road bike Pinnacle Neon with rim brakes. Now I have a Giant Defy with TRP Spyre cable disc brakes. Never had hydraulic brakes so I can't speak for them.

Rim brakes are more powerful than cable discs. The rim brakes on my Neon had a shorter braking distance than my Defy. Rim brakes are prone to locking up but not so much with a cable-disc. You can pull your cable-disc brakes as hard as you like and they won't lock up, great in the rain. The only time I ever locked up my disc brakes is riding on snow and ice, plus going down a hill (dry) and both brakes pulled hard, the back wheel slid a little. Riding your Defy in the snow is not nice and I've done it a few times including this winter. Discs are more user friendly than rims in terms of not locking up and having you lose control and fall over.

If you have buckled wheels, rim brakes will likely to touch the tyre. Something I used to hate. With discs, a buckled wheel doesn't affect them.

Rim brakes wear out your wheel very slowly, until you'll see a concave on the rim itself. It will concave faster in the rain! And its time you'll have to buy a new wheel. I wasn't happy when I had to buy a new wheel. Don't have to do that on a disc system. All you need to do is replace the rotor.

Many people say discs looks ugly. But I love the looks of discs. I don't like rim personally myself, they look boring to me. If I were to buy a new bike again, I will never buy a bike with rim brakes ever again. Disc systems all the way! I'll go for a hydraulic system this time instead of cable.

I still don't like the rear brakes because they're harder to pull than the front brakes as its cable based. Obviously the cable from the lever to the back brake is longer than the front. So you'll deal with more cable friction. Compressionless cable housing is a must. Not sure if my own Defy had compressionless already, well it says 'Jagwire' for a start. You don't have this problem with a hydraulic system so both brakes will be equal.

One thing I dislike about cable discs is many of the calipers are single piston. I just don't like the idea that one brake pad is doing more work than the other. And the rotor is going to bend eventually if you don't check some time later when the pad has worn enough. Good job my Spyres are dual piston activated so I don't have to worry about a rotor going to one side, provided the pads are adjusted correctly.

Discs carry a weight penalty? I'm not bothered. As long the bike's total weight is under ten kilograms I'm happy. And discs less aero than rims? Not too bothered either. I'm not racing nor trying to get fast time trial on Strava. If I need to be aero I'll use the drops.

The TRP Spyre is one of the best cable disc caliper there is. Or the most popular rather. I can't speak for Avid BB7's as I never encountered them so I can't talk about it. Though the Spyre is not perfect; the adjustment pad seizes up from time to time. And the spring is too stiff. I modified the Spyres' spring with a hacksaw and cut off 2mm of metal off it. Pity I damaged the paint job by accident lol. I got the idea of modifying the brake from here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYtu1rnNUu8 Now I have a looser brake feel and I'm happy, don't have to use the drops as often anymore. Brake levers are softer and braking is more repsonsive. If you have Spyres I encourage this modification!

green_mark · May 2018

neeb wrote:

green_mark wrote:

neeb wrote:

I don't count greater tyre clearances as an advantage of discs because this is nothing to do with the nature or discs vs. rim brakes, just the availability of long-drop rim brakes, which tend not to be fitted as standard on road bikes. My winter bike has rim brakes that can cope with 35mm cyclocross tyres if I take the mudguards off.

You're missing out that long-drop calipers have less leverage and therefore less braking power than short-reach calipers, which in turn are poorer than discs. So there is a big advantage of discs in providing larger tyre clearances without decreasing braking power.

And with those larger tyres you get better braking performance on both dry and wet - larger equals gripper equals more braking force before you have an uncontrolled skid.

OK, I'll conceed that this may be an advantage of discs if you are running *very* wide tyres (30mm plus). But many current rim brake bikes with normal-drop calipers (direct mount or otherwise) can take 28mm tyres without any trouble. Wider than that and you are into non-optimal territiory for fast road riding on even half decent tarmac. And long drop brakes still work OK.

32mm is the new 23mm.

sloppyschleckonds · May 2018

green_mark wrote:

neeb wrote:

green_mark wrote:

neeb wrote:

I don't count greater tyre clearances as an advantage of discs because this is nothing to do with the nature or discs vs. rim brakes, just the availability of long-drop rim brakes, which tend not to be fitted as standard on road bikes. My winter bike has rim brakes that can cope with 35mm cyclocross tyres if I take the mudguards off.

You're missing out that long-drop calipers have less leverage and therefore less braking power than short-reach calipers, which in turn are poorer than discs. So there is a big advantage of discs in providing larger tyre clearances without decreasing braking power.

And with those larger tyres you get better braking performance on both dry and wet - larger equals gripper equals more braking force before you have an uncontrolled skid.

OK, I'll conceed that this may be an advantage of discs if you are running *very* wide tyres (30mm plus). But many current rim brake bikes with normal-drop calipers (direct mount or otherwise) can take 28mm tyres without any trouble. Wider than that and you are into non-optimal territiory for fast road riding on even half decent tarmac. And long drop brakes still work OK.

32mm is the new 23mm.

So going back to the OPs question

JAMIE4759 wrote:

Are discs really necessary for summer?

Who is running 32's on their summer bike

imposter2.0 · May 2018

green_mark wrote:

32mm is the new 23mm.

32 is just 23 backwards..

veronese68 · May 2018

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Who is running 32's on their summer bike

:oops:

Moonbiker · May 2018

Neebs spot on

Discs become useful for all-road, gravel bikes, & cx though. Any thing with tyres over 28mm

As long drop calipers are poorer & aren't an updated & designed to match shimano new cable pull actuation, & rims get dirty and pads gritty. if you ride in winter on gravel or muddy unpaved stuff, cx races etc.

Shimano has gone through 3 generations of brake cable pull:
1. 8, 9, and 10 speed shifters with external shift cables pulled the least cable (Gen 1).
2. 10 speed shifters with internal shift cables pulled more cable (Gen 2).
3. 11 speed shifters pull even more cable (Gen 3).

I Still use a touring bike with long reach wienmanns but as braking is isn't that good as modern rim brake. I just take if easier on steep descents

My RS10s are in their 11th year and I'd love an excuse to replace them with something shiny, handbuilt and with a wider rim, but I'm a Yorkshireman and cannot bring myself to bin anything that's still functional...

The rear hub seal on the drive side may finally be letting water in because the bearings were a bit orange last time they were serviced and the cup looked a bit the worse for wear, but the b@stard things just keep on going...

You can buy spare parts: :roll:

http://www.sjscycles.com/Drawings/Shima ... ch_Doc.pdf

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/ ... 0/?geoc=US

etc

Same thing is happening to my wheelset, the same seal letting in water...

sloppyschleckonds · May 2018

Veronese68 wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Who is running 32's on their summer bike

:oops:

Communting doesn't count

<Orders some 35's>

veronese68 · May 2018

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Who is running 32's on their summer bike

:oops:

Communting doesn't count

<Orders some 35's>

I think I could run 37s and full guards if I wanted to.
To be fair it is the summer bike/winter bike/best bike/commuter and occasional off road fun bike. I need more bikes.

alan_sherman · May 2018

Discs are useful if you want to run 28mm to 32 mm and mudguards. I've run 25mm and guards with shimano deep drop calipers but mud would clog under the bridge. A frame using slightly more of the deep drop would help, but I wouldn't get 30mm plus guards under a deep drop caliper.

Discs: Big thread?

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