Discs: Big thread?
Comments
-
-
For me the single most important benefit is that your wheels will last as long as your axles keep turning. So when your shelling out £500 or more on wheels, that's nice to know0
-
kleinstroker wrote:For me the single most important benefit is that your wheels will last as long as your axles keep turning. So when your shelling out £500 or more on wheels, that's nice to know
I have never, in my many, many years of riding road bikes ever worn out a rim. But then again, I'm not a chubber with a fear of gradients.0 -
-
thegreatdivide wrote:kleinstroker wrote:For me the single most important benefit is that your wheels will last as long as your axles keep turning. So when your shelling out £500 or more on wheels, that's nice to know
I have never, in my many, many years of riding road bikes ever worn out a rim. But then again, I'm not a chubber with a fear of gradients.
Or you're a pussy that just doesn't get the most of his bike and so doesn't need to brake as much
Trail fun - Transition Bandit
Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
Allround - Cotic Solaris0 -
thegreatdivide wrote:kleinstroker wrote:For me the single most important benefit is that your wheels will last as long as your axles keep turning. So when your shelling out £500 or more on wheels, that's nice to know
I have never, in my many, many years of riding road bikes ever worn out a rim. But then again, I'm not a chubber with a fear of gradients.
Me neither, but I weigh 65kg, live in East Anglia, don't commute and rarely brake.
My RS10s are in their 11th year and I'd love an excuse to replace them with something shiny, handbuilt and with a wider rim, but I'm a Yorkshireman and cannot bring myself to bin anything that's still functional...
The rear hub seal on the drive side may finally be letting water in because the bearings were a bit orange last time they were serviced and the cup looked a bit the worse for wear, but the b@stard things just keep on going...0 -
thegreatdivide wrote:kleinstroker wrote:For me the single most important benefit is that your wheels will last as long as your axles keep turning. So when your shelling out £500 or more on wheels, that's nice to know
I have never, in my many, many years of riding road bikes ever worn out a rim. But then again, I'm not a chubber with a fear of gradients.
Ooh err! I was thinking more of carbon rims I guess. The sets I've had I was always worried about braking too hard and damaging them. Also if you're buying 2nd hand disc wheels, you know they won't be worn. This is great for us that overspend on unnecessary bike extras0 -
thegreatdivide wrote:kleinstroker wrote:For me the single most important benefit is that your wheels will last as long as your axles keep turning. So when your shelling out £500 or more on wheels, that's nice to know
I have never, in my many, many years of riding road bikes ever worn out a rim. But then again, I'm not a chubber with a fear of gradients.
I got through a set of rims in 10 weeks a few winters ago. Muddy roads and plenty of Yorkshire hills.......FFS! Harden up and grow a pair
0 -
jimmurray wrote:Milemuncher1 wrote:jimmurray wrote:My ride was ruined on Saturday because of issues with front disk brake, shimano hydraulic, on my Tarmac. Screaming and resonating off and on throughout the ride. Only sure way to stop it was to ride out of saddle with weight over front wheel or ride with front brake lightly applied.
I’ve had that, it’s beyond irritating.
Did you find out why it was doing it and how to fixt it? I had 11 hours of it on Saturday.
It was doing it because the pads weren’t completely flat in the calipers. I bought one of these.
It’s a pad spreader. As soon as I pushed it in between the pads, and put the wheel back in, it stopped the squealing. I have to remember to take it with me if I’m riding the bike with the disc brakes, because it happens every time I take the wheels out to fix a puncture.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Livewire wrote:My opinion likely counts for nothing however in my experience Disc Brakes are far superior at slowing down any bicycle over any rim brake. Regardless of the weather conditions.
In my experience, weight has a bigger impact.
But anyone's weight is greatly exaggerated when descending a 10%+ gradient. Don't care what anyone says but a good set of Hydraulic disc brakes will stop you much more comfortably than any set of rim brakes in that situation.0 -
Svetty wrote:thegreatdivide wrote:kleinstroker wrote:For me the single most important benefit is that your wheels will last as long as your axles keep turning. So when your shelling out £500 or more on wheels, that's nice to know
I have never, in my many, many years of riding road bikes ever worn out a rim. But then again, I'm not a chubber with a fear of gradients.
I got through a set of rims in 10 weeks a few winters ago. Muddy roads and plenty of Yorkshire hills.......
Surprisingly we've also got muddy roads in Scotland. Plenty of hills too. I've yet to ruin a rim.0 -
Yes, but the increase is a multiplication of your weight to begin with. So the force required to slow down or stop someone weighing 60kg on a 10% slope will only be 60% of what it is for someone weighing 100kg. They will have to pull the levers 40% less hard, rim and pad wear will be 40% less, etc. The braking power you need really is directly proportional to your weight. Given all of the other variables affecting whether discs are significntly advantageous or not (how much you ride in the wet, how much the routes you ride require you to brake) it's hardly surprising that people's experiences differ significantly.dstev55 wrote:But anyone's weight is greatly exaggerated when descending a 10%+ gradient. Don't care what anyone says but a good set of Hydraulic disc brakes will stop you much more comfortably than any set of rim brakes in that situation.0 -
dstev55 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Livewire wrote:My opinion likely counts for nothing however in my experience Disc Brakes are far superior at slowing down any bicycle over any rim brake. Regardless of the weather conditions.
In my experience, weight has a bigger impact.
But anyone's weight is greatly exaggerated when descending a 10%+ gradient. Don't care what anyone says but a good set of Hydraulic disc brakes will stop you much more comfortably than any set of rim brakes in that situation.
Sure but I bet I stop faster than you on your discs and me on my rim brakes. Certainly is the case with my 75 kilo mates when bombing downhill, and that’s when you want it.
Judging by the BMI thread elsewhere on the forum I’d suggest a more cost effective way of improving most people’s braking, and climbing to boot, is to put the fork down once in a while.
I mean, how much time do you actually spend braking.
And are these guys who worry so much about braking the same people who are slamming on the anchors at the latest possible moment when bombing downhi? One suspects they are usually not...0 -
neeb wrote:
Yes, but the increase is a multiplication of your weight to begin with. So the force required to slow down or stop someone weighing 60kg on a 10% slope will only be 60% of what it is for someone weighing 100kg. They will have to pull the levers 40% less hard, rim and pad wear will be 40% less, etc. The braking power you need really is directly proportional to your weight. Given all of the other variables affecting whether discs are significntly advantageous or not (how much you ride in the wet, how much the routes you ride require you to brake) it's hardly surprising that people's experiences differ significantly.dstev55 wrote:But anyone's weight is greatly exaggerated when descending a 10%+ gradient. Don't care what anyone says but a good set of Hydraulic disc brakes will stop you much more comfortably than any set of rim brakes in that situation.
I am 67kg. I live in Derbyshire. I like riding up hills on my rim brake Bianchi. But I prefer riding down them on my disc brake Planet X. Wet or dry my Planet X (which itself adds nearly 4kg of weight) stops a whole lot better and potentially quicker than my Bianchi going down hill.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Livewire wrote:My opinion likely counts for nothing however in my experience Disc Brakes are far superior at slowing down any bicycle over any rim brake. Regardless of the weather conditions.
In my experience, weight has a bigger impact.
But anyone's weight is greatly exaggerated when descending a 10%+ gradient. Don't care what anyone says but a good set of Hydraulic disc brakes will stop you much more comfortably than any set of rim brakes in that situation.
Sure but I bet I stop faster than you on your discs and me on my rim brakes. Certainly is the case with my 75 kilo mates when bombing downhill, and that’s when you want it.
Judging by the BMI thread elsewhere on the forum I’d suggest a more cost effective way of improving most people’s braking, and climbing to boot, is to put the fork down once in a while.
I mean, how much time do you actually spend braking.
And are these guys who worry so much about braking the same people who are slamming on the anchors at the latest possible moment when bombing downhi? One suspects they are usually not...
Mate I'm 6ft and weigh 67kg. Any lighter and I'd look anorexic!
And your points are well pointless if you are comparing two different system weights.... it's like comparing the braking on a Supermini against an SUV.0 -
dstev55 wrote:Ok so let's start listing some pros and cons:
Pros
Greater stopping power
Less likely to be affected by fade under heavy use
Much less likely to be affected by water
Elimination of rim wear
No risk of damaging carbon rims due to heat build up
Allows greater clearances for bigger tyres
Cons
More expensive
Heavier than rim brakes
Aesthetics (subjective but a negative for most)
More expensive Hydraulic brakes much better than cable brakes
Complicated wheel standards
Feel free to copy and paste and add anything else!
I'd edit these as follows:
Pros
Greater stopping power in throughly wet conditions. In dry conditions the stopping power of rim brakes always exceeds the grip of the tyres, so any further power is redundant. You may need to apply more force to the levers to acheive the same stopping power with rim brakes, but the power is available. It's easy to confuse the lighter feel of disc brakes with greater useful stopping power, when in fact it's just a control issue. But it's true that in very wet conditions the stopping power of rim brakes can fall below what is ideally required.
Better modulation under very high braking loads, such as when braking hard on steep descents. I'd argue that the greater sensitivity of hydraulic disc brakes means that they have better modulation under high loads, but poorer modulation under lower loads. Under very high loads you have to pull rim brake levers pretty hard to achieve the necessary braking power, which means you have less ability to finely modulate the braking because your muscles lose a degree of fine control at higher muscular forces. But conversely, at lower braking forces it's easy to overbrake with discs (I think this explains the observations above about problems with disc brakes in mixed rim/disc groups), while rim brake modulation is actually better. But rider weight will directly influence the point at which disc brake modulation becomes better - heavier riders will find modulation of discs starts to become better than rim brakes at lower speeds / gradients.
Elimination of rim wear - but whether or not this is a significant advantage depends hugely on the conditions and routes you ride a particular bike in, your weight and other factors. Bascially, rim wear is a big issue for some people and a very minor issue for others. If it's an issue then obviously discs offer an advantage, if it isn't then they don't. Brake pads don't wear out rims, grit does, and that's usually only an issue in the wet. Many people don't set out to ride their best bike in the rain (only doing so when caught out), so the percentage of the total riding time when the rims are being worn is very small. Also, IME carbon rims are actually pretty resilient to rim wear, more so than alu ones.
Better braking and saftey on older carbon rims. But really, the latest generation of carbon rims from the top manufacturers have largely overcome this. They brake as well as alu rims do in the dry and are getting close to them in the wet, and at least some current carbon rims have a resistance to heat-induced delamination that exceeds any conditions that could be encountered in the real word.
I don't count greater tyre clearances as an advantage of discs because this is nothing to do with the nature or discs vs. rim brakes, just the availability of long-drop rim brakes, which tend not to be fitted as standard on road bikes. My winter bike has rim brakes that can cope with 35mm cyclocross tyres if I take the mudguards off.
Cons
More expensive
Heavier
Less aero (of course the bike industry is now coming out with disc brake bikes that are claimed to be more aero than the previous generation rim brake model, but this is just an excercise in off-setting - if the same effort is put into making a rim brake bike and a disc brake bike aero, the rim brake bike will be more aero).
Places constraints on frame geometry that make some optimal solutions unattainable, e.g. chain stays and thus wheelbases can't be as short as on rim brake bikes. This provides less wiggle room for making responsive, sharp handling bikes.
Makes practically all bike components from frames to wheels and groupsets incompatible with non-disc equipment, including everything made before discs came along.
Ugly (especially the levers!)
Issues with squealing / juddering etc as described above. This is really rather common.
Inherently more complicated and thus more difficult and expensive to maintain and repair (irrespective of how often it needs to be done, which is another argument, hydraulic discs are always going to be more hassle when they do need attention).
Turn into deadly razor-sharp ninja shuriken in crash situations, capable of beheading entire pro pelotons within a single second (Ok, not really.. ) 0 -
What Neeb says.0
-
Indeed. neeb just nailed it.0
-
I bought a new winter bike last year and sold my Ridley Compact (with Tiagra 4600 and rim brakes) and bought a Felt VR30 with hydraulic brake discs purely because all my winter riding was on back county roads in a mountainous area where I had a few scares previously on wet descents. The VR30 also has 28mm tyres and will take up to 35mm (although I don't see the need for such wide tyres) which make it extremely comfortable. The brakes ( RS505) are amazing, very powerful and easily modulated on wet descents with no fade or waiting for the rims to dry before the brakes take effect. The VR30 also has a sub-compact chainset (46/30) and a 11/32 cassette which suits the type of terrain I use it on.
I have rim brakes on my good bike with 6800 groupset and can never imagine wanting discs. I have Fulcrum Quattro carbon wheels and the braking with the supplied red campy pads is better than the braking on any alloy rims I've previously used. I have never had a 'moment' with them and they suit my needs perfectly and rim brake do look cleaner than discs.0 -
Neeb you're a god. Apparently.
Some of your waffle is way over the top though. I mean come on... "inherently more complicated"..... we're talking about road cycle brakes here, not computer science, let's not over do it. Yes they are more complicated but bloody hell if I can install / maintain disc brakes then anyone can!0 -
I wasn’t going to bother posting but people seem to think this post makes sense. It actually has most of the misconceptions that exist about braking.neeb wrote:Greater stopping power in throughly wet conditions. In dry conditions the stopping power of rim brakes always exceeds the grip of the tyres Which is exactly what’s wrong with them, so any further power is redundant. You may need to apply more force to the levers to acheive the same stopping power with rim brakes, but the power is available. It's easy to confuse the lighter feel of disc brakes with greater useful stopping power, when in fact it's just a control issue. But it's true that in very wet conditions the stopping power of rim brakes can fall below what is ideally required.
Better modulation is everything for braking under very high braking loads, such as when braking hard on steep descents. I'd argue that the greater sensitivity of hydraulic disc brakes means that they have better modulation under high loads, but poorer modulation under lower loads I’d disagree - just use less fingers to brake . Under very high loads you have to pull rim brake levers pretty hard to achieve the necessary braking power, which means you have less ability to finely modulate the braking because your muscles lose a degree of fine control at higher muscular forces. But conversely, at lower braking forces it's easy to overbrake with discs (I think this explains the observations above about problems with disc brakes in mixed rim/disc groups), while rim brake modulation is actually better. But rider weight will directly influence the point at which disc brake modulation becomes better - heavier riders will find modulation of discs starts to become better than rim brakes at lower speeds / gradients. Lighter riders should just fit smaller discs - try that trick with rims
Elimination of rim wear disc brakes are totally independent of wheel material - but whether or not this is a significant advantage depends hugely on the conditions and routes you ride a particular bike in, your weight and other factors. Bascially, rim wear is a big issue for some people and a very minor issue for others. If it's an issue then obviously discs offer an advantage, if it isn't then they don't. Brake pads don't wear out rims, grit does, and that's usually only an issue in the wet. Many people don't set out to ride their best bike in the rain (only doing so when caught out), so the percentage of the total riding time when the rims are being worn is very small. Also, IME carbon rims are actually pretty resilient to rim wear, more so than alu ones.
Better braking and saftey on older carbon rims. But really, the latest generation of carbon rims from the top manufacturers have largely overcome this. They brake as well as alu rims do in the dry and are getting close to them in the wet, and at least some current carbon rims have a resistance to heat-induced delamination that exceeds any conditions that could be encountered in the real word thats why they are banned for some Californian rides
I don't count greater tyre clearances as an advantage of discs because this is nothing to do with the nature or discs vs. rim brakes of course it is, just the availability of long-drop rim brakes, which tend not to be fitted as standard on road bikes. My winter bike has rim brakes that can cope with 35mm cyclocross tyres if I take the mudguards off - see?.
Cons
More expensive
Heavier
Less aero (of course the bike industry is now coming out with disc brake bikes that are claimed to be more aero than the previous generation rim brake model, but this is just an excercise in off-setting - if the same effort is put into making a rim brake bike and a disc brake bike aero, the rim brake bike will be more aero).
Places constraints on frame geometry that make some optimal solutions unattainable, e.g. chain stays and thus wheelbases can't be as short as on rim brake bikes. This provides less wiggle room for making responsive, sharp handling bikes. typically around 1-2% on chain stay length - less than 0.5% on wheelbase - makes ALL the difference to sharp handling.....
Makes practically all bike components from frames to wheels and groupsets incompatible with non-disc equipment, including everything made before discs came along.
Ugly (especially the levers!)
Issues with squealing / juddering etc as described above. This is really rather common.
Inherently more complicated tosh and thus more difficult and expensive to maintain and repair (irrespective of how often it needs to be done, which is another argument, hydraulic discs are always going to be more hassle when they do need attention)ditto - you just aren’t familiar with them - that’s different.
Turn into deadly razor-sharp ninja shuriken in crash situations, capable of beheading entire pro pelotons within a single second (Ok, not really.. )ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Practically all of your objections to my apparent misconceptions miss the point being made or are simply non-sensical.meanredspider wrote:I wasn’t going to bother posting but people seem to think this post makes sense. It actually has most of the misconceptions that exist about braking.
E.g., obviously tyre stopping power of both rim and disc brakes exceeds tyre grip in the dry - how is this somehow a problem with rim brakes?
Modulation under very heavy loads is not "everyting" for braking, although clearly it's very useful when it's needed.
The banning of rim braked carbon clinchers on some Californian rides says nothing about the specific properties of some modern carbon rims (as verified by objective testing).0 -
Sure, anyone with reasonable mechanical skills can maintain them but clearly they are more complicated and fiddly and the question is whether the extra complication-induced hassle is worth the advantages. It will be for some people on some bikes in some situations but not for others.dstev55 wrote:Neeb you're a god. Apparently.
Some of your waffle is way over the top though. I mean come on... "inherently more complicated"..... we're talking about road cycle brakes here, not computer science, let's not over do it. Yes they are more complicated but bloody hell if I can install / maintain disc brakes then anyone can!0 -
The carbon clincher ban was for a couple of crappy sportives run by a convicted doper in 2012. It’s now 2018. Said doper is now history too.0
-
Milemuncher1 wrote:jimmurray wrote:Milemuncher1 wrote:jimmurray wrote:My ride was ruined on Saturday because of issues with front disk brake, shimano hydraulic, on my Tarmac. Screaming and resonating off and on throughout the ride. Only sure way to stop it was to ride out of saddle with weight over front wheel or ride with front brake lightly applied.
I’ve had that, it’s beyond irritating.
Did you find out why it was doing it and how to fixt it? I had 11 hours of it on Saturday.
It was doing it because the pads weren’t completely flat in the calipers. I bought one of these.
It’s a pad spreader. As soon as I pushed it in between the pads, and put the wheel back in, it stopped the squealing. I have to remember to take it with me if I’m riding the bike with the disc brakes, because it happens every time I take the wheels out to fix a puncture.
You don't need to carry a pad spreader with you on every ride, you need to centre the calliper over the disc properly.0 -
Livewire wrote:Milemuncher1 wrote:jimmurray wrote:Milemuncher1 wrote:jimmurray wrote:My ride was ruined on Saturday because of issues with front disk brake, shimano hydraulic, on my Tarmac. Screaming and resonating off and on throughout the ride. Only sure way to stop it was to ride out of saddle with weight over front wheel or ride with front brake lightly applied.
I’ve had that, it’s beyond irritating.
Did you find out why it was doing it and how to fixt it? I had 11 hours of it on Saturday.
It was doing it because the pads weren’t completely flat in the calipers. I bought one of these.
It’s a pad spreader. As soon as I pushed it in between the pads, and put the wheel back in, it stopped the squealing. I have to remember to take it with me if I’m riding the bike with the disc brakes, because it happens every time I take the wheels out to fix a puncture.
You don't need to carry a pad spreader with you on every ride, you need to centre the calliper over the disc properly.
Until it gets knocked, then the spreader works to get you home quietly.0 -
Milemuncher1 wrote:Livewire wrote:Milemuncher1 wrote:jimmurray wrote:Milemuncher1 wrote:jimmurray wrote:My ride was ruined on Saturday because of issues with front disk brake, shimano hydraulic, on my Tarmac. Screaming and resonating off and on throughout the ride. Only sure way to stop it was to ride out of saddle with weight over front wheel or ride with front brake lightly applied.
I’ve had that, it’s beyond irritating.
Did you find out why it was doing it and how to fixt it? I had 11 hours of it on Saturday.
It was doing it because the pads weren’t completely flat in the calipers. I bought one of these.
It’s a pad spreader. As soon as I pushed it in between the pads, and put the wheel back in, it stopped the squealing. I have to remember to take it with me if I’m riding the bike with the disc brakes, because it happens every time I take the wheels out to fix a puncture.
You don't need to carry a pad spreader with you on every ride, you need to centre the calliper over the disc properly.
Until it gets knocked, then the spreader works to get you home quietly.
Even on the off chance the caliper was knocked you still don't need to carry a spreader, you can use any number of things to push the brake pads back into the caliper. A flat stone off of the floor will even do the job. I would however just use my front door key as I carry that when I am out on the bike.0 -
Milemuncher rides thousands of miles a week - far more than anyone else on the planet. If he says you need a pad spreader on every ride - then you need a pad spreader on every ride. 0
-
Imposter wrote:Milemuncher rides thousands of miles a week - far more than anyone else on the planet. If he says you need a pad spreader on every ride - then you need a pad spreader on every ride.
I wonder if it can be used to spread bullshiteI'm sorry you don't believe in miracles0 -
Imposter wrote:Milemuncher rides thousands of miles a week - far more than anyone else on the planet. If he says you need a pad spreader on every ride - then you need a pad spreader on every ride.
O right, I understand now I am off to place an order for the best pad spreader I can find 0
