Has the bottom fallen out of Elite racing in the UK?

mamba80

Imposter wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Personally, i d prefer to see more all weather outdoor velodromes than these cloned, flat & borin L shaped tracks, as said, its not the future or at least not a great one.

Agree about the boring flat L shapes - but Redbridge/Hog Hill, Gravesend and Dumoulin Bikepark (NL) are notable exceptions and prove that there are good designs out there..

yep completely agree, not familiar with the other two but Redbridge was inspiring, it cost 5m to build though back in 2008, could prob add another couple of million at least now, which might be MF's point?

imposter2.0

mamba80 wrote:

Imposter wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Personally, i d prefer to see more all weather outdoor velodromes than these cloned, flat & borin L shaped tracks, as said, its not the future or at least not a great one.

Agree about the boring flat L shapes - but Redbridge/Hog Hill, Gravesend and Dumoulin Bikepark (NL) are notable exceptions and prove that there are good designs out there..

yep completely agree, not familiar with the other two but Redbridge was inspiring, it cost 5m to build though back in 2008, could prob add another couple of million at least now, which might be MF's point?

Maybe. I'm sure it would be possible to spend £10m on a circuit, but the 'typical' venues which are currently going up (like Torbay, Odd Down, etc) can be built for considerably less. Not every circuit needs to be like Torbay, but then not every circuit needs to be like Redbridge either.

The Hereford design is also very clever, considering the cost..

redvision

Imposter wrote:

There is talk of a circuit proposal in Aberystwyth,

The Aber track has been talked about for ages tbh and from what i have heard, is actually even less likely to happen now that the tour series has dropped the town from the schedule

I am keeping fingers crossed that the Hereford track does get built as it really would serve a huge area and offers fantastic value for money.

WC is still very much regarded by members as the governing body for 'South Wales' though

I think this is spot on. Mid and North Wales have had very little/zero investment from WC.

jimmythecuckoo

RayParker wrote:

If public roads are such a problem should there not be a new objective to help find safer places for road races or perhaps embark on investment to build something?

I am not talking about more pan flat 2km circuits but more that have sufficient width and terrain to test riders.

It goes against your second point, but Rockingham motor speedway has plenty of cycling on it during the summer weeknights.

DeVlaeminck

Imposter wrote:

That's all true (I've been saying it for many years!). It certainly isn't happening overnight, but the simple fact that there are more of these circuits being proposed/built (like the Hereford one that Pross mentioned, and the new venue at Pembrey) means that most racing will eventually gravitate towards 'off street' venues.

For example - the Archer GP. Classic Star Trophy event with signature finish up Winchmore Hill. More recently relegated to a circuit race at Hillingdon. Obviously the two events are not really comparable except in name (the Hillingdon event is just another E/1/2 circuit race, these days, I think), but it's been slowly happening for years.

But just because circuits exist doesn't mean everyone will prefer to race on them. So long as open road racing is legal I think it will remain the preferred branch of the sport. Elite domestic pro stuff is different - it requires full police rolling road closures and that is the challenge for them - it's a financial challenge.

234 stuff and NatB the challenge is police acceptance and insurance. I'm not taking these for granted but I don't accept a direction of travel away from open road is inevitable or even that it's happening.

DeVlaeminck

On a side note there is a story in the Derby Telegraph today that the velodrome - which was meant to be breaking even about now - is losing about a million a year.

imposter2.0

DeVlaeminck wrote:

But just because circuits exist doesn't mean everyone will prefer to race on them.

'Preference' probably won't come into it, unfortunately. Eventually, I doubt if people will have a choice. Hope I'm wrong, but there we are..

Vino'sGhost

ellerslierd wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Bath recently built a purpose built road circuit odds down. It’s absolutely fantastic, technical AND superfast

Have you managed to get to any of the races there yet so far this winter? Unfortunately many of the elite riders turn their nose up at Odd Down in favour of Castle Combe.

Saturday’s races: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xL3OJcfmSZ4

I’m working on bringing a National B race to the circuit as part of a two day mini-stage race in the next year or so. There are only four National B events and no National A events in our region this year, and all of them are done and dusted by April - that is where the real gap in the calendar is. Any road races that do get put on are Regional events for 2/3/4 riders, and understandably as the fields are guaranteed to be that much bigger.

\

I havent got down there this winter on account of being a porker I think its a circuit that can create super hard racing without options to coast, I can see why Castlecoome is popular, it more resembles road racing and if youre out of shape a little you can still compete. Bath needs you to be in your best shape. Even though I'm long since any way near that its still really enjoyable. May see you there.

Vino'sGhost

redvision wrote:

Imposter wrote:

There is talk of a circuit proposal in Aberystwyth,

The Aber track has been talked about for ages tbh and from what i have heard, is actually even less likely to happen now that the tour series has dropped the town from the schedule

I am keeping fingers crossed that the Hereford track does get built as it really would serve a huge area and offers fantastic value for money.

WC is still very much regarded by members as the governing body for 'South Wales' though

I think this is spot on. Mid and North Wales have had very little/zero investment from WC.

More like the governing body for Cardiff

Vino'sGhost

Imposter wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Personally, i d prefer to see more all weather outdoor velodromes than these cloned, flat & borin L shaped tracks, as said, its not the future or at least not a great one.

Agree about the boring flat L shapes - but Redbridge/Hog Hill, Gravesend and Dumoulin Bikepark (NL) are notable exceptions and prove that there are good designs out there..

Odd down is not flat or L shaped. Very definitely not flat

Pross

Imposter wrote:

Pross wrote:

I've recently designed a new 1.5k racing and training circuit and helped get it through planning but it has now stalled due to funding. The cost is likely to be around £750k but BC aren't interested as it isn't in one of their own identified locations so getting them to fund a circuit big enough to replicate road racing isn't going to happen.

I can sort of understand why they're not interested in Hereford as a venue though, to be fair. Hereford is probably already in the catchment for both Stourport and Shrewsbury, so it's possible that another circuit in the same area might be seen as overkill?

I can understand that but I would suggest the issue there is more the proximity of Stourport and Shrewsbury. Hereford picks up South and Mid Wales plus Gloucestershire potentially. I know there was also a desire to use it as a community facility for schools and possibly military rehab. I suspect South East Wales will end up with a circuit soon though.

That said, the thought of all 'road' racing ending up on closed circuits following the same BC dictated standards (min radii, min finish straight length, max 5% gradient as it becomes the easy option for organisers and / or it just gets too difficult to race on the road makes me sad. Even for crits I don't enjoy them and would much rather a town centre circuit.

imposter2.0

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Imposter wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Personally, i d prefer to see more all weather outdoor velodromes than these cloned, flat & borin L shaped tracks, as said, its not the future or at least not a great one.

Agree about the boring flat L shapes - but Redbridge/Hog Hill, Gravesend and Dumoulin Bikepark (NL) are notable exceptions and prove that there are good designs out there..

Odd down is not flat or L shaped. Very definitely not flat

It certainly has no identifiable climbs. Stourport has more evelation, while somewhere like Redbridge/Hog Hill definitely has more elevation. I would struggle to describe it as anything other than flat, tbh.

Calling it 'L shape' is more of a generalisation, I suspect.

Vino'sGhost

Imposter wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Imposter wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Personally, i d prefer to see more all weather outdoor velodromes than these cloned, flat & borin L shaped tracks, as said, its not the future or at least not a great one.

Agree about the boring flat L shapes - but Redbridge/Hog Hill, Gravesend and Dumoulin Bikepark (NL) are notable exceptions and prove that there are good designs out there..

Odd down is not flat or L shaped. Very definitely not flat

It certainly has no identifiable climbs. Stourport has more evelation, while somewhere like Redbridge/Hog Hill definitely has more elevation. I would struggle to describe it as anything other than flat, tbh.

Calling it 'L shape' is more of a generalisation, I suspect.

Whilst its not steep and its not long, its enough of a feature to add more pain to the circuit. But more importantly its a purpose built challenging circuit that provides for a proper sort out. Furthermore its a circuit which is heavily used and available for young children to learn to ride in a safe environment without cars or kerbs. The parking and the other facilities contribute to making it a first rate option for cycle racing with lower organisational challenges.

The other benifit of circuits like the one at odd down is they are attractive for broad community use and cheap to access. Last time i went up to Odd Down i think the cost was a pound to use it.

More importantly in that area there are alternatives, theres boring racing with a sprint at the end at castlecoombe for e12 and a crashathon for 3/4, theres an all weather velodrome at Maindy which provides some very different hard aggressive racing for road bike users as well as trackies, Im not counting the velodrome at Newport because its not easy to get on there without accreditation etc etc albeit its a first rate facility. To the east there's Thruxton which is far more interesting than panflat castlecoome. All of these different facilities provide first rate racing opportunities.

imposter2.0

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Whilst its not steep and its not long, its enough of a feature to add more pain to the circuit. But more importantly its a purpose built challenging circuit that provides for a proper sort out. Furthermore its a circuit which is heavily used and available for young children to learn to ride in a safe environment without cars or kerbs. The parking and the other facilities contribute to making it a first rate option for cycle racing with lower organisational challenges.

Don't get me wrong - I'm an advocate of closed circuit facilities like Odd Down and others. In that sense, I actually don't think it matters if they are flat, hilly, L-shaped or any other shape. Calling Odd Down 'flat' is not a criticism, just a reasonably accurate description as far as I'm concerned. If the land you build on is basically flat, then you will end up with a basically flat circuit, unless you factor in a lot of very expensive ground works. Circuits like this are great - just as long as they're not all the same..

ddraver

Imposter wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Imposter wrote:

RayParker wrote:

Very interesting to see that the Youth Series has a round at Brands Hatch this year.

NYS has three of seven rounds all within the greater London area (Brands, Hillingdon and the Redbridge/Gravesend 2-day), which probably isn't going to impress anyone that doesn't live in SE England.

More broadly, I can see Elite racing moving into town centres and off the open roads, except for a few set piece events, like TdY or Ride London. Everything else will probably end up on closed circuits.

People have been saying this for many years though and whilst it might happen I don't see any sign of it being imminent. The problems faced by amateur racing are different to the domestic pro scene. For the pros it's a financial one - affording police road closures and the requirements specified for a Nat A.

That's all true (I've been saying it for many years!). It certainly isn't happening overnight, but the simple fact that there are more of these circuits being proposed/built (like the Hereford one that Pross mentioned, and the new venue at Pembrey) means that most racing will eventually gravitate towards 'off street' venues.

For example - the Archer GP. Classic Star Trophy event with signature finish up Winchmore Hill. More recently relegated to a circuit race at Hillingdon. Obviously the two events are not really comparable except in name (the Hillingdon event is just another E/1/2 circuit race, these days, I think), but it's been slowly happening for years.

(I havent read the whole thread, I have enough beef with BC about MTB)

The closed circuits are how most of the lower level road racing in NL happens. Most cities will have a club with a short (1.5-3 km) road track. One of the benefits is that it allows a space for young riders (or older beginners) to learn stuff. In the winter they get turned into CX circuits

mamba80

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Whilst its not steep and its not long, its enough of a feature to add more pain to the circuit. But more importantly its a purpose built challenging circuit that provides for a proper sort out. Furthermore its a circuit which is heavily used and available for young children to learn to ride in a safe environment without cars or kerbs. The parking and the other facilities contribute to making it a first rate option for cycle racing with lower organisational challenges.

The other benifit of circuits like the one at odd down is they are attractive for broad community use and cheap to access. Last time i went up to Odd Down i think the cost was a pound to use it.

More importantly in that area there are alternatives, theres boring racing with a sprint at the end at castlecoombe for e12 and a crashathon for 3/4, theres an all weather velodrome at Maindy which provides some very different hard aggressive racing for road bike users as well as trackies, Im not counting the velodrome at Newport because its not easy to get on there without accreditation etc etc albeit its a first rate facility. To the east there's Thruxton which is far more interesting than panflat castlecoome. All of these different facilities provide first rate racing opportunities.

Pls dont me wrong here, these ccts are all very welcome and as you say, multi use, so you d not want too much elevation? but should be in addition too, not instead of either road ccts or more challenging ones like Redhill,
Maindy is a another great place to race too, the ridrs in S.Wales have it made !!!

Tom Dean

Yellow Peril wrote:

A very valid point. A concern I voiced a few years ago was the rise of clubs such as Road.cc and Rapha. They offer lots of incentives and cycling lifestyle stuff and also B.C. membership which entitles members to race. What they don't do is organise races so an element of bringing through race organisers is lost

rapha organise a race in the ERRL and do a great job by all accounts.

Vino'sGhost

mamba80 wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Whilst its not steep and its not long, its enough of a feature to add more pain to the circuit. But more importantly its a purpose built challenging circuit that provides for a proper sort out. Furthermore its a circuit which is heavily used and available for young children to learn to ride in a safe environment without cars or kerbs. The parking and the other facilities contribute to making it a first rate option for cycle racing with lower organisational challenges.

The other benifit of circuits like the one at odd down is they are attractive for broad community use and cheap to access. Last time i went up to Odd Down i think the cost was a pound to use it.

More importantly in that area there are alternatives, theres boring racing with a sprint at the end at castlecoombe for e12 and a crashathon for 3/4, theres an all weather velodrome at Maindy which provides some very different hard aggressive racing for road bike users as well as trackies, Im not counting the velodrome at Newport because its not easy to get on there without accreditation etc etc albeit its a first rate facility. To the east there's Thruxton which is far more interesting than panflat castlecoome. All of these different facilities provide first rate racing opportunities.

Pls dont me wrong here, these ccts are all very welcome and as you say, multi use, so you d not want too much elevation? but should be in addition too, not instead of either road ccts or more challenging ones like Redhill,
Maindy is a another great place to race too, the ridrs in S.Wales have it made !!!

They do and they’ve even got their own little motor circuit to use too just outside Cardiff. It’s a great part of the world to be a cyclist

thefog

RayParker wrote:

Interestingly BC have now confirmed the locations of the Cyclocross National Trophy and National Champs for 2018/19.

So perhaps the need is to find more private closed road venues that negate the need for police, road closures and local authority costs to be an issue.

It doesn't appear to be an issue in Yorkshire but clearly elsewhere problems are mounting.

For all the positive news put out about the Tour Yorkshire- they still haven’t attracted a headline sponsor for the race and rely on local councils funding the race with start and finish towns paying around £100k for the ‘honour’. North Yorkshire Council also pay £150k a year to have half the race held in North Yorks (there was a report on their website).

That money will no doubt be paid to ASO to provide all the kit and distribute prize monies and the Police (who ridiculously put far too many officers on bikes and cars within the event) and NEG for their services.

Doesn’t seem sustainable so be interesting to see where it goes in future years.

gsk82

TheFog wrote:

RayParker wrote:

Interestingly BC have now confirmed the locations of the Cyclocross National Trophy and National Champs for 2018/19.

So perhaps the need is to find more private closed road venues that negate the need for police, road closures and local authority costs to be an issue.

It doesn't appear to be an issue in Yorkshire but clearly elsewhere problems are mounting.

For all the positive news put out about the Tour Yorkshire- they still haven’t attracted a headline sponsor for the race and rely on local councils funding the race with start and finish towns paying around £100k for the ‘honour’. North Yorkshire Council also pay £150k a year to have half the race held in North Yorks (there was a report on their website).

That money will no doubt be paid to ASO to provide all the kit and distribute prize monies and the Police (who ridiculously put far too many officers on bikes and cars within the event) and NEG for their services.

Doesn’t seem sustainable so be interesting to see where it goes in future years.

It's the counties biggest tourism event of the year. Welcome to Yorkshire will continue to support/ fund it.

yorkshireraw

gsk82 wrote:

It's the counties biggest tourism event of the year. Welcome to Yorkshire will continue to support/ fund it.

Am sure it pays back over time as well. Point of interest though is it a bigger 'event' than the Great Yorkshire Show etc? Difficult to quantify numbers watching on the roads vs. tickets through the door at the showground I know.

Dorset_Boy

From a tourism PoV, presumably you'd want to be able to guage the number of non-local visitors to each event and therefore the inflow of funds into the county.

bobmcstuff

YorkshireRaw wrote:

gsk82 wrote:

It's the counties biggest tourism event of the year. Welcome to Yorkshire will continue to support/ fund it.

Am sure it pays back over time as well. Point of interest though is it a bigger 'event' than the Great Yorkshire Show etc? Difficult to quantify numbers watching on the roads vs. tickets through the door at the showground I know.

TdY is a good TV advert for Yorkshire as well, which must be just as hard to quantify.