Has the bottom fallen out of Elite racing in the UK?

jimmythecuckoo

gsk82 wrote:

I think there'll also be a number on long time organisers who have just had enough and, unfortunately the new generation of cyclists have no interest is giving anything back.

nail.head.

Lots of clubs local to me are constantly appealing for marshalls, organisers, people to bake a cake to help get events to run.

Even midweek club tens now have to have increased levels of marshalling and that puts a pressure on the clubs committee to ensure safe and correct support for the event.

However, there remain a core of riders who will turn up and just expect to ride without having to give their time back into the club or events.

rick_chasey

I'd imagine having things like TdY, ToB and the Surrey 1dayer means fans are used to seeing top level, World Tour riders.

And so, when the local Brit elites turn up there's just less interest.

Might be BS, but I wouldn't be bummed if I missed the Brit elites go past, but I would if it was any of the above races.

RayParker

If public roads are such a problem should there not be a new objective to help find safer places for road races or perhaps embark on investment to build something?

I am not talking about more pan flat 2km circuits but more that have sufficient width and terrain to test riders.

This would negate the need for council involvement, police, the NEG and perhaps as many marshals.

Are there any potential venues like that which could be considered?

Very interesting to see that the Youth Series has a round at Brands Hatch this year.

bobmcstuff

/\ I'd been thinking at some of these MTB train centres you could fairly easily put in something like that.

Hell, Cwm Carn has a "forest drive" of 11 tarmaced KM for ultra lazy people which you could use for a race if you could persuade them it was a good idea (it would be brutal since it has a really big hill in it).

(although based on a quick google, the news says it's been closed since 2014, but apparently they want to reopen it)

edit: just found it on Strava https://www.strava.com/routes/1592250?hl=en-GB

Matthewfalle

RayParker wrote:

If public roads are such a problem should there not be a new objective to help find safer places for road races or perhaps embark on investment to build something?

I am not talking about more pan flat 2km circuits but more that have sufficient width and terrain to test riders.

This would negate the need for council involvement, police, the NEG and perhaps as many marshals.

Are there any potential venues like that which could be considered?

Very interesting to see that the Youth Series has a round at Brands Hatch this year.

Who do you think would invest in it given the amount that would be need to see the project through?

Matthewfalle

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

However, there remain a core of riders who will turn up and just expect to ride without having to give their time back into the club or events.

This exactly coupled with those riders who don't even bother saying thank you to the people who marshal.

Why should non racers (i.e. Friends and family of racers) turn up to marshal as favour for their racing friend if they aren't even going to be acknowledged? Part of the reason Eason why my locals cycle clubs struggle with getting help.

Bizarrely though, the local tri club with its much friendlier and grateful attitude seem to have no issues......

RayParker

Who would pay?

Well I would like to think BC would pay whatever it costs to help such an initiative.

Surely for this and the future generations to be able to race then it's BC intetest to support alternative options if open or close road racing is going to get harder to organise.

cougie

My club rules are you need to Marshall twice a year and it works for most people. Obviously some do far more than their fair share and there are some shirkers but it's a good start.

If you don't want to help out don't join the club.

Matthewfalle

RayParker wrote:

Who would pay?

Well I would like to think BC would pay whatever it costs to help such an initiative.

Surely for this and the future generations to be able to race then it's BC intetest to support alternative options if open or close road racing is going to get harder to organise.

You honestly think BC has that kind of money?

Matthewfalle

cougie wrote:

My club rules are you need to Marshall twice a year and it works for most people. Obviously some do far more than their fair share and there are some shirkers but it's a good start.

If you don't want to help out don't join the club.

Fairly standard rules but their are a lot of shirkers. Some people will join the club with no intention of helping out. We all know the sort.

DeVlaeminck

I'd much rather see money go into facilities rather than elite sport and staff like regional competition ones. I know that they aren't free to spend funding that way but they should be. Same in football, apparently there is shedloads of cash to develop women's football but outside of the elite academies you don't see any sign of it, Ive no idea what the local FA development officers do, meanwhile I can't find a 3G pitch with availability for my lot to train on.

Lookyhere

RayParker wrote:

If public roads are such a problem should there not be a new objective to help find safer places for road races or perhaps embark on investment to build something?

I am not talking about more pan flat 2km circuits but more that have sufficient width and terrain to test riders.

This would negate the need for council involvement, police, the NEG and perhaps as many marshals.

Are there any potential venues like that which could be considered?

Very interesting to see that the Youth Series has a round at Brands Hatch this year.

Racing ccts are already used around the country, Brands, Mallory, CastleCombe etc some regions seem to have also lost military bases, such Portreath and Ilton in the s/w.

But you need to realise BC s focus is track and taking the very best youths (who dont use the road in anycase) and get them up and based in Manchester, if they need road experience, they ll get it on the continent and in the big pro/am races that are held around the UK on ccts and roads..
Building specific road ccts so a bunch of 2/3/4's can race in safety with few helpers, is not on their agenda.

Plus of course the cost, land in the South is hyper expensive and needed for 300,000 houses per year, which means councils with spare land put houses on it, not bicycle tracks.

Vino'sGhost

BC could run a system where members earn credits for volunteers. No credits no racing. They’ve got every member on a database already and could be published.

Very little cost but massive step forward in helping people put in. If members Cba to do it they could get others to earn points on their behalf

Vino'sGhost

Lookyhere wrote:

RayParker wrote:

If public roads are such a problem should there not be a new objective to help find safer places for road races or perhaps embark on investment to build something?

I am not talking about more pan flat 2km circuits but more that have sufficient width and terrain to test riders.

This would negate the need for council involvement, police, the NEG and perhaps as many marshals.

Are there any potential venues like that which could be considered?

Very interesting to see that the Youth Series has a round at Brands Hatch this year.

Racing ccts are already used around the country, Brands, Mallory, CastleCombe etc some regions seem to have also lost military bases, such Portreath and Ilton in the s/w.

But you need to realise BC s focus is track and taking the very best youths (who dont use the road in anycase) and get them up and based in Manchester, if they need road experience, they ll get it on the continent and in the big pro/am races that are held around the UK on ccts and roads..
Building specific road ccts so a bunch of 2/3/4's can race in safety with few helpers, is not on their agenda.

Plus of course the cost, land in the South is hyper expensive and needed for 300,000 houses per year, which means councils with spare land put houses on it, not bicycle tracks.

Bath recently built a purpose built road circuit odds down. It’s absolutely fantastic, technical AND superfast

awavey

Matthewfalle wrote:

RayParker wrote:

Who would pay?

Well I would like to think BC would pay whatever it costs to help such an initiative.

Surely for this and the future generations to be able to race then it's BC intetest to support alternative options if open or close road racing is going to get harder to organise.

You honestly think BC has that kind of money?

well Sport England who are there to fund grassroots sport, gave BC £17million to promote grassroots sport, well it was delayed whilst they sorted out all that board wranglings, but I presume theyve deposited it in their local HSBC account by now, so have they spent that money already then ?

it was not the money for the olympic programme, that comes from UK sport (£23million). so what are they spending the 17million on or choosing not to spend it on.

sorry it feels like we are cycling around a track going round in circles, because I still just cant see why BC arent able to use the funding theyve got, which is designed to help do this stuff, which they get given precisely because its seen as part of their role to do, to help organise these races, rather than what seems to be happening is putting up all their usual BC barriers to stop it.

ellerslierd

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Bath recently built a purpose built road circuit odds down. It’s absolutely fantastic, technical AND superfast

Have you managed to get to any of the races there yet so far this winter? Unfortunately many of the elite riders turn their nose up at Odd Down in favour of Castle Combe.

Saturday’s races: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xL3OJcfmSZ4

I’m working on bringing a National B race to the circuit as part of a two day mini-stage race in the next year or so. There are only four National B events and no National A events in our region this year, and all of them are done and dusted by April - that is where the real gap in the calendar is. Any road races that do get put on are Regional events for 2/3/4 riders, and understandably as the fields are guaranteed to be that much bigger.

mamba80

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

RayParker wrote:

If public roads are such a problem should there not be a new objective to help find safer places for road races or perhaps embark on investment to build something?

I am not talking about more pan flat 2km circuits but more that have sufficient width and terrain to test riders.

This would negate the need for council involvement, police, the NEG and perhaps as many marshals.

Are there any potential venues like that which could be considered?

Very interesting to see that the Youth Series has a round at Brands Hatch this year.

Racing ccts are already used around the country, Brands, Mallory, CastleCombe etc some regions seem to have also lost military bases, such Portreath and Ilton in the s/w.

But you need to realise BC s focus is track and taking the very best youths (who dont use the road in anycase) and get them up and based in Manchester, if they need road experience, they ll get it on the continent and in the big pro/am races that are held around the UK on ccts and roads..
Building specific road ccts so a bunch of 2/3/4's can race in safety with few helpers, is not on their agenda.

Plus of course the cost, land in the South is hyper expensive and needed for 300,000 houses per year, which means councils with spare land put houses on it, not bicycle tracks.

Bath recently built a purpose built road circuit odds down. It’s absolutely fantastic, technical AND superfast

Its a go-cart track, less than a mile in length! standard BC design of a flat ish L shape, same as the one in torbay.

I m not saying its unwelcome at all, facilities are always good, but jeez! i hope this isnt the future of RR in the UK!

Have you been to Redbridge -Hoggs hill - cct? now that is a place to race but its huge!

imposter2.0

RayParker wrote:

Very interesting to see that the Youth Series has a round at Brands Hatch this year.

NYS has three of seven rounds all within the greater London area (Brands, Hillingdon and the Redbridge/Gravesend 2-day), which probably isn't going to impress anyone that doesn't live in SE England.

More broadly, I can see Elite racing moving into town centres and off the open roads, except for a few set piece events, like TdY or Ride London. Everything else will probably end up on closed circuits.

cycleclinic

Road racing peaks and troughs. It won't fusaoear. We maybe in for a tough few years with lack of sponsors but the eastern road race league seems pretty healthy.

It increasing traffic levels are a problem but really educating drivers and politicians takes time. Driverless cars s are coming and could be our saviour. The future is not bleak.

Pross

RayParker wrote:

Who would pay?

Well I would like to think BC would pay whatever it costs to help such an initiative.

Surely for this and the future generations to be able to race then it's BC intetest to support alternative options if open or close road racing is going to get harder to organise.

I've recently designed a new 1.5k racing and training circuit and helped get it through planning but it has now stalled due to funding. The cost is likely to be around £750k but BC aren't interested as it isn't in one of their own identified locations so getting them to fund a circuit big enough to replicate road racing isn't going to happen.

I also can't see there being enough of a commercial prospect to tempt anyone but somewhere like Cwmcarn where the roads and facilities are already here could do something on a commercial basis. I believe the roads are back open now, they were closed for tree felling due to Larch Die Back. The other thing I was looking to try when I was organising was to establish contacts with the MoD to enable closed road racing on Epynt Ranges, they're public roads but the MoD can close them and I know there are road rallies held there a couple of times a year. The terrain would make for brilliant racing.

Unfortunately, private land with 5 or more miles of reasonably wide, decent condition road is pretty limited. Probably the best chance is MoD land but with security as it is these days they're unlikely to want public access.

DeVlaeminck

Imposter wrote:

RayParker wrote:

Very interesting to see that the Youth Series has a round at Brands Hatch this year.

NYS has three of seven rounds all within the greater London area (Brands, Hillingdon and the Redbridge/Gravesend 2-day), which probably isn't going to impress anyone that doesn't live in SE England.

More broadly, I can see Elite racing moving into town centres and off the open roads, except for a few set piece events, like TdY or Ride London. Everything else will probably end up on closed circuits.

People have been saying this for many years though and whilst it might happen I don't see any sign of it being imminent. The problems faced by amateur racing are different to the domestic pro scene. For the pros it's a financial one - affording police road closures and the requirements specified for a Nat A.

msmancunia

awavey wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

RayParker wrote:

Who would pay?

Well I would like to think BC would pay whatever it costs to help such an initiative.

Surely for this and the future generations to be able to race then it's BC intetest to support alternative options if open or close road racing is going to get harder to organise.

You honestly think BC has that kind of money?

well Sport England who are there to fund grassroots sport, gave BC £17million to promote grassroots sport, well it was delayed whilst they sorted out all that board wranglings, but I presume theyve deposited it in their local HSBC account by now, so have they spent that money already then ?

it was not the money for the olympic programme, that comes from UK sport (£23million). so what are they spending the 17million on or choosing not to spend it on.

sorry it feels like we are cycling around a track going round in circles, because I still just cant see why BC arent able to use the funding theyve got, which is designed to help do this stuff, which they get given precisely because its seen as part of their role to do, to help organise these races, rather than what seems to be happening is putting up all their usual BC barriers to stop it.

1). We don't get all the money from SE in one go - it comes in every quarter.
2). SE money is mainly for - organised recreational rides (City Rides, Ride Social, Breeze Rides etc), getting more women on bikes, under-represented groups etc. It supports disability hubs and riders. It pays to train thousands of coaches every year, in all disciplines. It pays to train commissaires and marshals. It pays to provide a safeguarding team, because out of the thousands of people who we work with and for, there is a minority who decide to spoil it by behaving inappropriately to a child or vulnerable adult, or a parent bullying another child, or their own child, or punching a race official or coach. It pays for our auditors, our lawyers, and other professional advisors. It pays for our campaigning arm so that we can represent you when you tell us you/your wife/your kids don't feel safe riding on the roads. Sport England want it to pay for getting new riders on bikes, not supporting the ones who are already riding. We have to pay for that out of our membership income.
3). It pays for the salaries of 250+ staff - coaches, educators, risk advisors, administrators, cyclesport staff, membership team, regional events officers, and me. We don't earn a fortune, we're on the equivalent of a low public sector salary but we don't get the amazing pension and holidays that your average Joe working at the council gets. We work unsociable hours at times and we work bloody hard. We do it because we love the sport.
4). Funding is ringfenced and much as we'd like to spend it how we like, we can't. If we did, they'd take it off us. Cyclesport covers over 4,000 events a year. We have to pay for that through membership income and levies. Some race organisers sit on their levies, or try to get out of paying them, so we have to pay someone to recover that, and also put them through a disciplinary process, and ban them. Membership income also has to pay to insure you when you race - our premium is well over a million quid per annum. Membership income is £4M. So there's not much to go round and we have to be careful with it.

So no, we can't "pay whatever it costs" because we have to be sensible.

imposter2.0

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Imposter wrote:

RayParker wrote:

Very interesting to see that the Youth Series has a round at Brands Hatch this year.

NYS has three of seven rounds all within the greater London area (Brands, Hillingdon and the Redbridge/Gravesend 2-day), which probably isn't going to impress anyone that doesn't live in SE England.

More broadly, I can see Elite racing moving into town centres and off the open roads, except for a few set piece events, like TdY or Ride London. Everything else will probably end up on closed circuits.

People have been saying this for many years though and whilst it might happen I don't see any sign of it being imminent. The problems faced by amateur racing are different to the domestic pro scene. For the pros it's a financial one - affording police road closures and the requirements specified for a Nat A.

That's all true (I've been saying it for many years!). It certainly isn't happening overnight, but the simple fact that there are more of these circuits being proposed/built (like the Hereford one that Pross mentioned, and the new venue at Pembrey) means that most racing will eventually gravitate towards 'off street' venues.

For example - the Archer GP. Classic Star Trophy event with signature finish up Winchmore Hill. More recently relegated to a circuit race at Hillingdon. Obviously the two events are not really comparable except in name (the Hillingdon event is just another E/1/2 circuit race, these days, I think), but it's been slowly happening for years.

Matthewfalle

msmancunia wrote:

awavey wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

RayParker wrote:

Who would pay?

Well I would like to think BC would pay whatever it costs to help such an initiative.

Surely for this and the future generations to be able to race then it's BC intetest to support alternative options if open or close road racing is going to get harder to organise.

You honestly think BC has that kind of money?

well Sport England who are there to fund grassroots sport, gave BC £17million to promote grassroots sport, well it was delayed whilst they sorted out all that board wranglings, but I presume theyve deposited it in their local HSBC account by now, so have they spent that money already then ?

it was not the money for the olympic programme, that comes from UK sport (£23million). so what are they spending the 17million on or choosing not to spend it on.

sorry it feels like we are cycling around a track going round in circles, because I still just cant see why BC arent able to use the funding theyve got, which is designed to help do this stuff, which they get given precisely because its seen as part of their role to do, to help organise these races, rather than what seems to be happening is putting up all their usual BC barriers to stop it.

1). We don't get all the money from SE in one go - it comes in every quarter.
2). SE money is mainly for - organised recreational rides (City Rides, Ride Social, Breeze Rides etc), getting more women on bikes, under-represented groups etc. It supports disability hubs and riders. It pays to train thousands of coaches every year, in all disciplines. It pays to train commissaires and marshals. It pays to provide a safeguarding team, because out of the thousands of people who we work with and for, there is a minority who decide to spoil it by behaving inappropriately to a child or vulnerable adult, or a parent bullying another child, or their own child, or punching a race official or coach. It pays for our auditors, our lawyers, and other professional advisors. It pays for our campaigning arm so that we can represent you when you tell us you/your wife/your kids don't feel safe riding on the roads. Sport England want it to pay for getting new riders on bikes, not supporting the ones who are already riding. We have to pay for that out of our membership income.
3). It pays for the salaries of 250+ staff - coaches, educators, risk advisors, administrators, cyclesport staff, membership team, regional events officers, and me. We don't earn a fortune, we're on the equivalent of a low public sector salary but we don't get the amazing pension and holidays that your average Joe working at the council gets. We work unsociable hours at times and we work bloody hard. We do it because we love the sport.
4). Funding is ringfenced and much as we'd like to spend it how we like, we can't. If we did, they'd take it off us. Cyclesport covers over 4,000 events a year. We have to pay for that through membership income and levies. Some race organisers sit on their levies, or try to get out of paying them, so we have to pay someone to recover that, and also put them through a disciplinary process, and ban them. Membership income also has to pay to insure you when you race - our premium is well over a million quid per annum. Membership income is £4M. So there's not much to go round and we have to be careful with it.

So no, we can't "pay whatever it costs" because we have to be sensible.

This exactly and perfectly summed up.

That money goes on reality, not pie in the sky dreams of purpose built bicycle circuits that'll be used twice a week by a minority of a minority.

Even so, 20 mill will probably cover building two tracks and then all your money is gone and you can't do any of the above.

imposter2.0

Matthewfalle wrote:

Even so, 20 mill will probably cover building two tracks and then all your money is gone and you can't do any of the above.

Closed circuits don't cost £10m ea. Torbay cost about £1.6m - 50% match-funded by BC and the council. So BC's cost was around £800k.

imposter2.0

Pross wrote:

I've recently designed a new 1.5k racing and training circuit and helped get it through planning but it has now stalled due to funding. The cost is likely to be around £750k but BC aren't interested as it isn't in one of their own identified locations so getting them to fund a circuit big enough to replicate road racing isn't going to happen.

I can sort of understand why they're not interested in Hereford as a venue though, to be fair. Hereford is probably already in the catchment for both Stourport and Shrewsbury, so it's possible that another circuit in the same area might be seen as overkill?

redvision

Imposter wrote:

I can sort of understand why they're not interested in Hereford as a venue though, to be fair. Hereford is probably already in the catchment for both Stourport and Shrewsbury, so it's possible that another circuit in the same area might be seen as overkill?

Not really though. Think about mid Wales. There is no race track and virtually no races, despite a growing number of clubs.

The nearest tracks are south Wales (Newport, Cardiff etc), Shrewsbury and Stourport meaning the proposed one in Hereford would cut travel time and expenses significantly (especially for those racing regularly).

I appreciate mid Wales is under Welsh cycling but in the welsh marches you would expect overlap/ collaboration between BC and WC.

mamba80

Imposter wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Even so, 20 mill will probably cover building two tracks and then all your money is gone and you can't do any of the above.

Closed circuits don't cost £10m ea. Torbay cost about £1.6m - 50% match-funded by BC and the council. So BC's cost was around £800k.

they also didnt have to buy the land, a substantial saving but the build was more expensive because of drainage and stability issues, which is why a velodrome wasnt cost effective.
More worryingly was that Torbay was the only council remotely interested in the entire s/w...... fund a pay rise for adult social care or build a cycle track....mmmmm

Personally, i d prefer to see more all weather outdoor velodromes than these cloned, flat & borin L shaped tracks, as said, its not the future or at least not a great one.

imposter2.0

redvision wrote:

Imposter wrote:

I can sort of understand why they're not interested in Hereford as a venue though, to be fair. Hereford is probably already in the catchment for both Stourport and Shrewsbury, so it's possible that another circuit in the same area might be seen as overkill?

Not really though. Think about mid Wales. There is no race track and virtually no races, despite a growing number of clubs.

The nearest tracks are south Wales (Newport, Cardiff etc), Shrewsbury and Stourport meaning the proposed one in Hereford would cut travel time and expenses significantly (especially for those racing regularly).

I appreciate mid Wales is under Welsh cycling but in the welsh marches you would expect overlap/ collaboration between BC and WC.

There is talk of a circuit proposal in Aberystwyth, I believe and the Welsh circuit champs have been run at Builth showground for the last couple of years. A Hereford venue may well help some of the mid-Wales clubs, but that doesn't necessarily justify it from a broader economic perspective, unfortunately. Meanwhile, they still have to keep trekking to Shrewsbury or Stourport.

There probably is overlap between WC and BC - certainly from a funding pov. WC is still very much regarded by members as the governing body for 'South Wales' though, unfortunately...

imposter2.0

mamba80 wrote:

Personally, i d prefer to see more all weather outdoor velodromes than these cloned, flat & borin L shaped tracks, as said, its not the future or at least not a great one.

Agree about the boring flat L shapes - but Redbridge/Hog Hill, Gravesend and Dumoulin Bikepark (NL) are notable exceptions and prove that there are good designs out there..