Froome Vuelta salbutamol problem

iainf72

bobmcstuff wrote:

What's the interaction between UKAD and UCI's anti doping, Froome doesn't get tested by UKAD does he?

UKAD have to actually deal with the case. Any AAF is passed to the national AD.

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

What's the interaction between UKAD and UCI's anti doping, Froome doesn't get tested by UKAD does he?

UKAD have to actually deal with the case. Any AAF is passed to the national AD.

That’s not true in cycling anymore. It gets passed on to an independent group called LADS - Legal Anti-Doping Services. I think the UCI got fed up with appealling national AD decisions.

Also with the UKAD stats. 1. Very small data set and 2. all were likely small time sportsmen who were unable to offer a proper defence. One of them - a footballer for Brentford actually escaped with just a warning having admitted he took too much.

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

What's the interaction between UKAD and UCI's anti doping, Froome doesn't get tested by UKAD does he?

UKAD have to actually deal with the case. Any AAF is passed to the national AD.

That’s not true in cycling anymore. It gets passed on to an independent group called LADS - Legal Anti-Doping Services. I think the UCI got fed up with appealling national AD decisions.

Also with the UKAD stats. 1. Very small data set and 2. all were likely small time sportsmen who were unable to offer a proper defence. One of them - a footballer for Brentford actually escaped with just a warning having admitted he took too much.

Cheers. I haven't been keeping up clearly.

It'll still be down to British cycling to suspect his licence I assume?

Mad_Malx

Isn't the small data set relevant though? - If everyone is on it and the urine level is too low then it should be popping up every week.

DeVlaeminck

Mad_Malx wrote:

Isn't the small data set relevant though? - If everyone is on it and the urine level is too low then it should be popping up every week.

I'd have thought so, it makes Froome's double the limit a huge outlier and therefore much harder to explain other than by him having taken too much salbutamol.

darkhairedlord

Imagine the uproar if the drink drive limit was set at two pints of wife-beater but the test was blood/urine /whatever. I don't think it would last longer than the first lawyer to get pulled. In the same vein, I would of thought the test is invalid as a measure of injestation and any well funded sports team would get out of it.

bobmcstuff

It's mentioned by Inrng here http://inrng.com/2018/03/thursday-shorts-24/

Cyclingnews headlines “UK Anti-Doping data a blow to Chris Froome’s salbutamol defence” but it’s not really the case. It is a small blow to Sky’s media comments that these cases happen and are resolved in private and therefore by implication Froome’s case is just one of many only it got leaked. But we’ve known this, the stats exist on the WADA website too. But Froome’s case is not about others, statistics or the law of large numbers, it’s still about him proving he took a permitted amount as the reason behind the reported high quantity in the sample.

Also very interesting just above that:

Talking of BMC Racing, remember Samuel Sanchez? He had an A-sample positive for GHRP-2, a kind of growth hormone. 196 days later he’s still provisionally suspended. Long but there’s also André Cardoso’s positive A-sample for EPO just before the Tour de France. He’s still provisionally suspended some 248 days later. These things can’t be rushed… but still.

So people who think Froome's case is being dragged out by Sky are ignoring other examples of cases taking much longer to resolve (admittedly, they are both provisionally suspended - but they both had positives for banned substances)

Mad_Malx

bobmcstuff wrote:

It's mentioned by Inrng here http://inrng.com/2018/03/thursday-shorts-24/

Cyclingnews headlines “UK Anti-Doping data a blow to Chris Froome’s salbutamol defence” but it’s not really the case. It is a small blow to Sky’s media comments that these cases happen and are resolved in private and therefore by implication Froome’s case is just one of many only it got leaked. But we’ve known this, the stats exist on the WADA website too.

Are the number of sally cases flagged & prosecuted known? (I appreciate that you are quoting Bob, I'm not having a pop)

C'mon guys, we've almost made the century

Matthewfalle

Must be a freedom of information thing flying around.

RichN95.

One point at comparing Froome with other cases. How many of those other athletes were tested almost every day before and after the fateful test. My guess is none. Froome's defence team will have data that was not available to the others and that may hold the key to the case.

bobmcstuff

RichN95 wrote:

One point at comparing Froome with other cases. How many of those other athletes were tested almost every day before and after the fateful test. My guess is none. Froome's defence team will have data that was not available to the others and that may hold the key to the case.

I went to the cycling podcast live thing in Salford last night, and Richard Moore said exactly that, apparently from what he has heard speaking to people in the team Froome's excreted salbutamol over the Vuelta shows some very unexpected trends compared to his dosages, and that will be part of their defence. However he did say he still thought Froome would cop a ban.

RichN95.

bobmcstuff wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

One point at comparing Froome with other cases. How many of those other athletes were tested almost every day before and after the fateful test. My guess is none. Froome's defence team will have data that was not available to the others and that may hold the key to the case.

I went to the cycling podcast live thing in Salford last night, and Richard Moore said exactly that, apparently from what he has heard speaking to people in the team Froome's excreted salbutamol over the Vuelta shows some very unexpected trends compared to his dosages, and that will be part of their defence. However he did say he still thought Froome would cop a ban.

I'd agree with him regarding ban. Particularly as this is public. I think that it is has certainly prejudiced the process.

I also think that using past statistics to make some judgement on Froome's chances of success is a bit like using the murder conviction rate of black men in Los Angeles to make an assessment on OJ Simpson's chances of being found not guilty. They're different levels. (That OJ was almost certainly guilty emphasises my point)

As an aside, was the event any good? We're quite discerning in Wales so we don't let any old act into town until they've proved themselves - hence why no Welsh dates. Ned Boulting had to do a small tour first and even then we only let him into Newport.

bobmcstuff

RichN95 wrote:

As an aside, was the event any good? We're quite discerning in Wales so we don't let any old act into town until they've proved themselves - hence why no Welsh dates. Ned Boulting had to do a small tour first and even then we only let him into Newport.

Yes, the event itself was good. My girlfriend enjoyed it too and she's not really a cycling fan.

However it was rather expensive for what was essentially a promotional event for their book. It was organised by Penguin books live and waterstones, and if you go to a normal promotional event/reading at waterstones it's usually free/nominal price, this was £16 plus booking fee. Admittedly the Lowry probably costs more than waterstones' event space, but still.

RichN95.

bobmcstuff wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

As an aside, was the event any good? We're quite discerning in Wales so we don't let any old act into town until they've proved themselves - hence why no Welsh dates. Ned Boulting had to do a small tour first and even then we only let him into Newport.

Yes, the event itself was good. My girlfriend enjoyed it too and she's not really a cycling fan.

However it was rather expensive for what was essentially a promotional event for their book. It was organised by Penguin books live and waterstones, and if you go to a normal promotional event/reading at waterstones it's usually free/nominal price, this was £16 plus booking fee. Admittedly the Lowry probably costs more than waterstones' event space, but still.

I guess Ned Boulting was a lot different. He has a background in performance comedy (he was in Cambridge Footlights with Sue Perkins and Al Murray)

darkhairedlord

Good discussion on radio five. Usual drum Banging but also Steve Redgrave saying you take the drugs your medical condition requires. He was saying he was taking insulin through the last three years of competition etc....

pinno

The inhaler fiasco is a grey area whereas, there's not a hope in hell that someone with type 1 diabetes could compete at that sort of level.

jimmythecuckoo

Can I be the last post on page 99 perhaps ?

salsiccia1

Another 10 posts on here yet, nervous nineties still

No_Ta_Doctor

So, round two of "who will get the 100 page post", after BikeRadar buggered up their databases....

Dorset_Boy

What's happened? I thought I'd got the first post on page 100 a couple of days ago?
Where have those posts gone?
Have those pesky Russians attacked this thread and eliminated a number of posts?

Pross

Second bite at the cherry to take it to 100 pages!

Beatmaker

Dorset Boy wrote:

What's happened? I thought I'd got the first post on page 100 a couple of days ago?
Where have those posts gone?
Have those pesky Russians attacked this thread and eliminated a number of posts?

Its the retribution Putin threatened for expelling their diplomats.

mtb-idle

apropos of nothing I was listening to a bit of Courtney Barnett last night and wondered if Froomedog is a fan of "Avant Gardener" (available on Youtube and all good streaming services):

Should've stayed in bed today, I much prefer the mundane
I take a hit from an asthma puffer
I do it wrong, I was never good at smoking bongs

[Chorus]
I'm not that good at breathing in
I'm not that good at breathing in
I'm not that good at breathing in

No_Ta_Doctor

Beatmaker wrote:

Dorset Boy wrote:

What's happened? I thought I'd got the first post on page 100 a couple of days ago?
Where have those posts gone?
Have those pesky Russians attacked this thread and eliminated a number of posts?

Its the retribution Putin threatened for expelling their diplomats.

Nah, PInno hacked the forum to get another chance.

natrix

100?

hantstooflat

What's the latest on this?

natrix

I'll have another go..................

mtb-idle

amateurs...

natrix

Third time lucky to make a 100

mtb-idle

natrix wrote:

Third time lucky to make a 100