Paradise Papers (& Panama Papers)

Matthewfalle

Stevo 666 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Maybe the UK should do as the French and Germans and become more efficient at collecting tax. The performance of HMRC is quite lamentable in comparison.
Also do as the French do. Once a loophole is found, shut it down and make it illegal.
Another idea could be to go after the accountancy firms that are exploiting the loopholes for their clients.
I don't think the current administration are interested in doing anything about this situation. There are too many individuals and corporations that hold sway over the Tories. Not sure if Labour would be any different.

I would also add that the government should also do more to stop the exploitation by benefit cheats.

Got any evidence or figures to back that up?

France don't even publish figures for their overall tax gap, nor do Germany. You have to wonder why...

He'll be able to supply those as soon as Panorama do another programmer or all the independent internet news sites publish anything.

Stevo_666

Stevo 666 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Maybe the UK should do as the French and Germans and become more efficient at collecting tax. The performance of HMRC is quite lamentable in comparison.
Also do as the French do. Once a loophole is found, shut it down and make it illegal.
Another idea could be to go after the accountancy firms that are exploiting the loopholes for their clients.
I don't think the current administration are interested in doing anything about this situation. There are too many individuals and corporations that hold sway over the Tories. Not sure if Labour would be any different.

I would also add that the government should also do more to stop the exploitation by benefit cheats.

Got any evidence or figures to back that up?

France don't even publish figures for their overall tax gap, nor do Germany. You have to wonder why...

Also there are full mandatory disclosure and penalty regimes in the UK applying to advisers and anyone who promotes tax schemes of this nature. Has done for some time.

The level of of knowledge some people are displaying on here about the subject matter is just p1ss poor. And a misplaced sense of moral outrage doesn't adequately compensate for that.

TheBigBean

Stevo 666 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Maybe the UK should do as the French and Germans and become more efficient at collecting tax. The performance of HMRC is quite lamentable in comparison.
Also do as the French do. Once a loophole is found, shut it down and make it illegal.
Another idea could be to go after the accountancy firms that are exploiting the loopholes for their clients.
I don't think the current administration are interested in doing anything about this situation. There are too many individuals and corporations that hold sway over the Tories. Not sure if Labour would be any different.

I would also add that the government should also do more to stop the exploitation by benefit cheats.

Got any evidence or figures to back that up?

France don't even publish figures for their overall tax gap, nor do Germany. You have to wonder why...

Also there are full mandatory disclosure and penalty regimes in the UK applying to advisers and anyone who promotes tax schemes of this nature. Has done for some time.

The level of of knowledge some people are displaying on here about the subject matter is just p1ss poor. And a misplaced sense of moral outrage doesn't adequately compensate for that.

There seems to be sufficient evidence of wrongdoing to justify some outrage, and this is not mitigated by the suggestion that everyone is at it.

Matthewfalle

TheBigBean wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Maybe the UK should do as the French and Germans and become more efficient at collecting tax. The performance of HMRC is quite lamentable in comparison.
Also do as the French do. Once a loophole is found, shut it down and make it illegal.
Another idea could be to go after the accountancy firms that are exploiting the loopholes for their clients.
I don't think the current administration are interested in doing anything about this situation. There are too many individuals and corporations that hold sway over the Tories. Not sure if Labour would be any different.

I would also add that the government should also do more to stop the exploitation by benefit cheats.

Got any evidence or figures to back that up?

France don't even publish figures for their overall tax gap, nor do Germany. You have to wonder why...

Also there are full mandatory disclosure and penalty regimes in the UK applying to advisers and anyone who promotes tax schemes of this nature. Has done for some time.

The level of of knowledge some people are displaying on here about the subject matter is just p1ss poor. And a misplaced sense of moral outrage doesn't adequately compensate for that.

There seems to be sufficient evidence of wrongdoing to justify some outrage, and this is not mitigated by the suggestion that everyone is at it.

No - there has been no wrong doing only ignorance and misunderstanding by people leading to outrage at stuff they don't understand.


I don't understand quantum physics but you won't catch me calling me for someone to publicly kick Dara O Briain in the nads do you?

Matthewfalle

Essentially though guys, if I were you I'd listen to Steve and me - he's pretty darn good at tax stuff and I've done more UHNWWM than you lot have changed brake cables.

rjsterry

Matthewfalle wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Maybe the UK should do as the French and Germans and become more efficient at collecting tax. The performance of HMRC is quite lamentable in comparison.
Also do as the French do. Once a loophole is found, shut it down and make it illegal.
Another idea could be to go after the accountancy firms that are exploiting the loopholes for their clients.
I don't think the current administration are interested in doing anything about this situation. There are too many individuals and corporations that hold sway over the Tories. Not sure if Labour would be any different.

I would also add that the government should also do more to stop the exploitation by benefit cheats.

Got any evidence or figures to back that up?

France don't even publish figures for their overall tax gap, nor do Germany. You have to wonder why...

Also there are full mandatory disclosure and penalty regimes in the UK applying to advisers and anyone who promotes tax schemes of this nature. Has done for some time.

The level of of knowledge some people are displaying on here about the subject matter is just p1ss poor. And a misplaced sense of moral outrage doesn't adequately compensate for that.

There seems to be sufficient evidence of wrongdoing to justify some outrage, and this is not mitigated by the suggestion that everyone is at it.

No - there has been no wrong doing only ignorance and misunderstanding by people leading to outrage at stuff they don't understand.


I don't understand quantum physics but you won't catch me calling me for someone to publicly kick Dara O Briain in the nads do you?

That's quite a bold statement. Possibly that's the problem with these big leaks. The things that maybe should be looked at more closely gets conflated with all the ultimately pretty trivial stuff.

Matthewfalle

There has been no legal wrong doing otherwise people would be being arrested.

There is only moral outrage by the chatteratti.

Pross

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pross wrote:

Watching this on Panorama. Before it started my opinion was on the lines of if it's legal it's not a problem (much like when people talk about 'grey areas' in doping). When they were talking about the IoM plane 'scam' that view was reinforced, I really don't see an issue if the IoM Government has decided that's the system they want. However, once they started talking about the various people 'giving away' their money to companies in Mauritius - who then appoint them to advise on how to 'invest' that money which invariably seemed to be in providing houses, cars and luxurious items for their own use - I was amazed if that could possibly be legal tax avoidance. Surely that is tax evasion that just hadn't been uncovered until now? Maybe I'm just too naive in financial matters but it just seems so blatant it can't even be considered a loophole can it?

Those loan type schemes have already been closed down, i.e they don't work.

Interesting. Presumably those identified as using that system in the programme no longer do so then or are breaking the law. The biggest issue I had with the Panorama programme was that they weren't making it clear whether the schemes being used were illegal or not. There were lots of talking heads using phrases such as 'immoral', 'not in keeping with the spirit of the law', 'unethical' etc. but none seemed prepared to call anything illegal in which case they should have spent some time asking the Government or HMRC why they allowed tax to be so readily avoided rather than dramatically stalking individuals who probably knew nothing much about how their finances are being handled other than they are paying an accountant who has said he will legally reduce their tax burden.

On the jet VAT thing, am I the only one who finds VAT a bit of an odd tax? It doesn't seem right to be taxed to buy something. It also doesn't seem to do what it says on the tin as it acts as a sales tax rather than a tax on value added, is this simply due to everyone passing the tax down the chain to the next person so that the customer pays back the tax the retailer is having to pay for the value added?

mr_goo

Matthewfalle wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Maybe the UK should do as the French and Germans and become more efficient at collecting tax. The performance of HMRC is quite lamentable in comparison.
Also do as the French do. Once a loophole is found, shut it down and make it illegal.
Another idea could be to go after the accountancy firms that are exploiting the loopholes for their clients.
I don't think the current administration are interested in doing anything about this situation. There are too many individuals and corporations that hold sway over the Tories. Not sure if Labour would be any different.

I would also add that the government should also do more to stop the exploitation by benefit cheats.

Just missing immigrants for a Daily Mail BINGO!!!

Express delivery with added National Action for Mr Goo at the door.

WTF are you both on about? I'm not right or left any longer. I'm completely ambivalent to any party politics.

Matthewfalle

Pross wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pross wrote:

Watching this on Panorama. Before it started my opinion was on the lines of if it's legal it's not a problem (much like when people talk about 'grey areas' in doping). When they were talking about the IoM plane 'scam' that view was reinforced, I really don't see an issue if the IoM Government has decided that's the system they want. However, once they started talking about the various people 'giving away' their money to companies in Mauritius - who then appoint them to advise on how to 'invest' that money which invariably seemed to be in providing houses, cars and luxurious items for their own use - I was amazed if that could possibly be legal tax avoidance. Surely that is tax evasion that just hadn't been uncovered until now? Maybe I'm just too naive in financial matters but it just seems so blatant it can't even be considered a loophole can it?

Those loan type schemes have already been closed down, i.e they don't work.

Interesting. Presumably those identified as using that system in the programme no longer do so then or are breaking the law. The biggest issue I had with the Panorama programme was that they weren't making it clear whether the schemes being used were illegal or not. There were lots of talking heads using phrases such as 'immoral', 'not in keeping with the spirit of the law', 'unethical' etc. but none seemed prepared to call anything illegal in which case they should have spent some time asking the Government or HMRC why they allowed tax to be so readily avoided rather than dramatically stalking individuals who probably knew nothing much about how their finances are being handled other than they are paying an accountant who has said he will legally reduce their tax burden.

That's because they weren't illegal.

I think someone typed that up there .....

Matthewfalle

Mr Goo wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Maybe the UK should do as the French and Germans and become more efficient at collecting tax. The performance of HMRC is quite lamentable in comparison.
Also do as the French do. Once a loophole is found, shut it down and make it illegal.
Another idea could be to go after the accountancy firms that are exploiting the loopholes for their clients.
I don't think the current administration are interested in doing anything about this situation. There are too many individuals and corporations that hold sway over the Tories. Not sure if Labour would be any different.

I would also add that the government should also do more to stop the exploitation by benefit cheats.

Just missing immigrants for a Daily Mail BINGO!!!

Express delivery with added National Action for Mr Goo at the door.

WTF are you both on about? I'm not right or left any longer. I'm completely ambivalent to any party politics.

Ding dong - someone at the door. Think it's the paper boy.

mr_goo

Stevo 666 wrote:

fat daddy wrote:

so Tax avoidance costs the UK 2.7 Billion a year .... and there are 29.3 million people in the uk that pay tax ?

so thats like a cost of £92 per person per year ?

..... I am thinking that I save at least £500 a year shopping through Amazon who may or may not avoid tax ...... if this is the case, surely I am better off thanks to tax avoidance than if they close the loop hole ?

According to HMRC it's about £1.7bn pa. So if we closed all the avoidance loopholes we could pay off the national debt in just over 1,000 years. Whoopee.

See info on page 5 of this HMRC report:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/655097/HMRC-measuring-tax-gaps-2017.pdf

Going back to this recent leak, wonder how much is at stake and how much relates to the UK? there are a lot of twisted knickers on here before the facts or estimates are out.

I think you're missing the point. It may only be a piffling £1.7bn. Nothing in grand scheme of things. But a great deal to essential services in the community that have either had to shut down or reduce service due to budget cuts.
However I am assuming that those in charge of this money would use it wisely and not blow it on things like I'D card schemes or new IT systems.

TheBigBean

Pross wrote:

On the jet VAT thing, am I the only one who finds VAT a bit of an odd tax? It doesn't seem right to be taxed to buy something. It also doesn't seem to do what it says on the tin as it acts as a sales tax rather than a tax on value added, is this simply due to everyone passing the tax down the chain to the next person so that the customer pays back the tax the retailer is having to pay for the value added?

Company buys something for £50 + VAT and sells it for £100 + VAT. At the end of its VAT quarter it will hand over to HMRC VAT Rate x (£100-£50) i.e. the tax of the value added. That money has ultimately come from the end user who has paid VAT on £100, but that's why it is called value added tax.

mr_goo

How about this. We all have to carry ID cards which includes our tax contribution codes etc. So that when the likes of Lewis Hamilton for example, is in need of emergency care ie A&E or assistance from police. They can be cut adrift as they have not contributed to the upkeep of our services.

TheBigBean

Matthewfalle wrote:

There has been no legal wrong doing otherwise people would be being arrested.

There is only moral outrage by the chatteratti.

There's quite a range between being arrested and wrongdoing. For example, if it was all hunky-dory no one would pay any more tax as a result of this leak, but I imagine there will be a fair few settlements. Why would they happen if no wrong had been committed?

Doping in France is illegal, yet there have been hardly any prosecutions. That doesn't mean cyclists doping in France have committed no wrong it just means it is hard to prove. Tax is the same.

haydenm

TheBigBean wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

There has been no legal wrong doing otherwise people would be being arrested.

There is only moral outrage by the chatteratti.

There's quite a range between being arrested and wrongdoing. For example, if it was all hunky-dory no one would pay any more tax as a result of this leak, but I imagine there will be a fair few settlements. Why would they happen if no wrong had been committed?

Doping in France is illegal, yet there have been hardly any prosecutions. That doesn't mean cyclists doping in France have committed no wrong it just means it is hard to prove. Tax is the same.

Surely that's irrelevant unless doping was made legal and there were documents sent to the police from all involved in multiple countries to say they were doing it, as per this tax avoidance issue.

This is TUEs at worst, not doping...

rjsterry

Matthewfalle wrote:

There has been no legal wrong doing otherwise people would be being arrested.

There is only moral outrage by the chatteratti.

Absolutely everything was 100% legitimate? That would be a first for mankind. And a bit simplistic to say the lack of arrests proves no wrongdoing. To be clear I'm sure the vast majority of the transactions are legitimate, and as you say outrage from people who are not averse to breaking the law themselves when it suits them and they don't think they'll get found out. But no wrongdoing AT ALL? That would be weird in any industry.

rjsterry

HaydenM wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

There has been no legal wrong doing otherwise people would be being arrested.

There is only moral outrage by the chatteratti.

There's quite a range between being arrested and wrongdoing. For example, if it was all hunky-dory no one would pay any more tax as a result of this leak, but I imagine there will be a fair few settlements. Why would they happen if no wrong had been committed?

Doping in France is illegal, yet there have been hardly any prosecutions. That doesn't mean cyclists doping in France have committed no wrong it just means it is hard to prove. Tax is the same.

Surely that's irrelevant unless doping was made legal and there were documents sent to the police from all involved in multiple countries to say they were doing it, as per this tax avoidance issue.

This is TUEs at worst, not doping...

Sure, most of it is TUEs, but there will be a couple who have, um, used a slightly different medication than the one for which they have an exemption.

dinyull

Mr Goo wrote:

How about this. We all have to carry ID cards which includes our tax contribution codes etc. So that when the likes of Lewis Hamilton for example, is in need of emergency care ie A&E or assistance from police. They can be cut adrift as they have not contributed to the upkeep of our services.

He's a resident of Monaco.

Or are you saying all visiting holiday makers shouldn't receive police or hospital assistance?

Jez mon

From an "in the courts" point of view, it's totally fine (in fact it's a requirement) to separate the subject of morality and legality.

Philosophically, is it a moral action to be paying the maximum amount of tax you are liable for? I would argue that there is considerable grey in that area. ISAs, cycle to work and pensions, all allow the average person to pay less tax in one way or another.

It almost seems to me that govt backed schemes like ISAs exist so that the small people can get a taste of the tax efficiency, this means when the rich/Party donors get caught out engaging in more "exotic" forms of tax efficiency, well it's just like an ISA...

Clearly there does seem to be an issue with holding companies.

Matthewfalle

Dinyull wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

How about this. We all have to carry ID cards which includes our tax contribution codes etc. So that when the likes of Lewis Hamilton for example, is in need of emergency care ie A&E or assistance from police. They can be cut adrift as they have not contributed to the upkeep of our services.

He's a resident of Monaco.

Or are you saying all visiting holiday makers shouldn't receive police or hospital assistance?

Same as Kenyan Chris and the others. Tax reasons.

Matthewfalle

Mr Goo wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

fat daddy wrote:

so Tax avoidance costs the UK 2.7 Billion a year .... and there are 29.3 million people in the uk that pay tax ?

so thats like a cost of £92 per person per year ?

..... I am thinking that I save at least £500 a year shopping through Amazon who may or may not avoid tax ...... if this is the case, surely I am better off thanks to tax avoidance than if they close the loop hole ?

According to HMRC it's about £1.7bn pa. So if we closed all the avoidance loopholes we could pay off the national debt in just over 1,000 years. Whoopee.

See info on page 5 of this HMRC report:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/655097/HMRC-measuring-tax-gaps-2017.pdf

Going back to this recent leak, wonder how much is at stake and how much relates to the UK? there are a lot of twisted knickers on here before the facts or estimates are out.

I think you're missing the point. It may only be a piffling £1.7bn. Nothing in grand scheme of things. But a great deal to essential services in the community that have either had to shut down or reduce service due to budget cuts.
However I am assuming that those in charge of this money would use it wisely and not blow it on things like I'D card schemes or new IT systems.

This is brilliant. Goo at his near best.

rjsterry

Matthewfalle wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

fat daddy wrote:

so Tax avoidance costs the UK 2.7 Billion a year .... and there are 29.3 million people in the uk that pay tax ?

so thats like a cost of £92 per person per year ?

..... I am thinking that I save at least £500 a year shopping through Amazon who may or may not avoid tax ...... if this is the case, surely I am better off thanks to tax avoidance than if they close the loop hole ?

According to HMRC it's about £1.7bn pa. So if we closed all the avoidance loopholes we could pay off the national debt in just over 1,000 years. Whoopee.

See info on page 5 of this HMRC report:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/655097/HMRC-measuring-tax-gaps-2017.pdf

Going back to this recent leak, wonder how much is at stake and how much relates to the UK? there are a lot of twisted knickers on here before the facts or estimates are out.

I think you're missing the point. It may only be a piffling £1.7bn. Nothing in grand scheme of things. But a great deal to essential services in the community that have either had to shut down or reduce service due to budget cuts.
However I am assuming that those in charge of this money would use it wisely and not blow it on things like I'D card schemes or new IT systems.

This is brilliant. Goo at his near best.

Hang on, didn't he just say he did[i/] want an ID card system?

Stevo_666

Mr Goo wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

fat daddy wrote:

so Tax avoidance costs the UK 2.7 Billion a year .... and there are 29.3 million people in the uk that pay tax ?

so thats like a cost of £92 per person per year ?

..... I am thinking that I save at least £500 a year shopping through Amazon who may or may not avoid tax ...... if this is the case, surely I am better off thanks to tax avoidance than if they close the loop hole ?

According to HMRC it's about £1.7bn pa. So if we closed all the avoidance loopholes we could pay off the national debt in just over 1,000 years. Whoopee.

See info on page 5 of this HMRC report:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/655097/HMRC-measuring-tax-gaps-2017.pdf

Going back to this recent leak, wonder how much is at stake and how much relates to the UK? there are a lot of twisted knickers on here before the facts or estimates are out.

I think you're missing the point. It may only be a piffling £1.7bn. Nothing in grand scheme of things. But a great deal to essential services in the community that have either had to shut down or reduce service due to budget cuts.
However I am assuming that those in charge of this money would use it wisely and not blow it on things like I'D card schemes or new IT systems.

Maybe you haven't read it - or even the page that I told you was relevant. Look what else is causing the gap. Black economy, criminal activity, mistakes, carelessness and just plain old different legal interpretations of a complex subject matter). Etc.

The other side of the coin of course is people like you assuming that taxpayers are a bottomless pit of money to be tapped up whenever someone wants to spend more in the public domain.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

fat daddy wrote:

so Tax avoidance costs the UK 2.7 Billion a year .... and there are 29.3 million people in the uk that pay tax ?

so thats like a cost of £92 per person per year ?

..... I am thinking that I save at least £500 a year shopping through Amazon who may or may not avoid tax ...... if this is the case, surely I am better off thanks to tax avoidance than if they close the loop hole ?

According to HMRC it's about £1.7bn pa. So if we closed all the avoidance loopholes we could pay off the national debt in just over 1,000 years. Whoopee.

See info on page 5 of this HMRC report:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/655097/HMRC-measuring-tax-gaps-2017.pdf

Going back to this recent leak, wonder how much is at stake and how much relates to the UK? there are a lot of twisted knickers on here before the facts or estimates are out.

I think you're missing the point. It may only be a piffling £1.7bn. Nothing in grand scheme of things. But a great deal to essential services in the community that have either had to shut down or reduce service due to budget cuts.
However I am assuming that those in charge of this money would use it wisely and not blow it on things like I'D card schemes or new IT systems.

This is brilliant. Goo at his near best.

Hang on, didn't he just say he did[i/] want an ID card system?

Slagging off his own ideas...

bompington

rjsterry wrote:

Hang on, di'dn't he just say he di'd[i/] want an I'D card system?

FTFY

mamba80

Matthewfalle wrote:

Right - what we learnt so far

I ve learnt you re nothing more than a condescending troll..... who has a lot of time to read up on tax.

rick_chasey

Or just a pikey landlord who is smug about avoiding paying tax that, by design of the law, he ought to be paying.

I presume the tax situation around owning rental properties was not created in order for the same owners to avoid putting their names on them. Happy to be persuaded otherwise.

And the 'we're all doing it' is the last refuge of the person who knows they're on the losing end. << another fallacious argument, if ya want to go down that road.

Matthewfalle

mamba80 wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Right - what we learnt so far

I ve learnt you re nothing more than a condescending troll..... who has a lot of time to read up on tax.

so wrong. Sorry. And what exact part of anything I've written (or anyone else if you want to look at it) is trolling? Or is it because you either don't understand it or realize that you're wrong that you call trolling?

And why would anyone who doesn't work in tax want to read up on tax - it's sooooo freakingly boring (Sorry Steve).

Matthewfalle

Rick Chasey wrote:

Or just a pikey landlord who is smug about avoiding paying tax that, by design of the law, he ought to be paying.

I presume the tax situation around owning rental properties was not created in order for the same owners to avoid putting their names on them. Happy to be persuaded otherwise.

And the 'we're all doing it' is the last refuge of the person who knows they're on the losing end. << another fallacious argument, if ya want to go down that road.

Who's avoiding paying what tax?

It doesn't matter who or what name is on the deeds, you still have to pay tax on any income. So you're saying because it's owned by a company you don't pay tax? Sheeeesh man, Mark Carney must be calling your branch of the sandwich chain chasing you now for those razor sharp financial style thoughts.

And the "we're all doing it" is reality.

You really are clueless little fella.