Dura Ace 9100 noisy and poor shifting

mr_mojo

Pilot Pete wrote:

How annoying. My DA 9170 Group is also very noisy in operation. Shifting is accurate and fast but the chain is noisy as hell and does the same little skip on the cassette when turning the pedals backwards on the workstand. Everything set up correctly as per the OP following the Shimano Dealer Manual advice and minor adjustments on the fly to stop a little rub when pushing hard on the pedals out the saddle (due to very slight flex between BB and chainrings). PP

So is my DA 9150. Works perfectly but there is chain noise in normal operation.

mugensi

Did this ever get resolved?

One of the things that occurred to me is that could some of the cassette cogs be on the wrong way?

pilot_pete

MugenSi wrote:

Did this ever get resolved?

One of the things that occurred to me is that could some of the cassette cogs be on the wrong way?

Not in my case - straight out of the box and onto the free hub...

PP

philbar72

if the chain skips every revolution, have you checked the quick link?

pilot_pete

philbar72 wrote:

if the chain skips every revolution, have you checked the quick link?

it’s a random skip when turning the pedals backwards on the stand, no pattern as such but seems to be the chainlne and the inner edge of the chain just catching on a tooth on the next bigger cog which lifts the chain slightly before it drops back on. The teeth are as new, no damage.

The noise when pedalling forwards is more annoying...!

PP

Vino'sGhost

Ben6899 wrote:

How did you check the hanger for straightness?

With a gear hanger tool which screws in in place of the mech. A great big bar basically that allows you to lever the hanger into position. it has a gauge element, and the hanger is true when the gauge (read rod) is less than a mm from a known point on the rim at the 12, 3 6 and 9oclock positions. (use the same point on the rim to negate the effect of a rim with true or dishing problems)

Number one tool for diagnosing duff shifting once you've tried setting up properly.

photonic69

Vino'sGhost wrote:

With a gear hanger tool which screws in in place of the mech. A great big bar basically that allows you to lever the hanger into position. it has a gauge element, and the hanger is true when the gauge (read rod) is less than a mm from a known point on the rim at the 12, 3 6 and 9oclock positions. (use the same point on the rim to negate the effect of a rim with true or dishing problems)

Number one tool for diagnosing duff shifting once you've tried setting up properly.

I concur. One of the most useful tools I've bought. If you only have one bike then get a LBS to do this for you for a tenner. I've got 6+ bikes (family's) to look after so I bought a cheapy Lifeline one from Wiggle. Does the job really well. Ghost shifting a thing of the past now.

champson

MugenSi wrote:

Did this ever get resolved?

One of the things that occurred to me is that could some of the cassette cogs be on the wrong way?

Good thought, but no unfortunately I completely removed the cassette and went through every cog. It's obvious which way they should go on as they just match the ones on the carrier.
I must get around to looking at it again as it seems summer has arrived.

keef66

MugenSi wrote:

Did this ever get resolved?

One of the things that occurred to me is that could some of the cassette cogs be on the wrong way?

Unless you drop it and lose half the bits you'd really have to be quite inventive to assemble a Shimano cassette wrong. The sprockets only go on one way round and the spacers all the same size. The only things you can muck up are the size / number of spacer(s) behind the biggest sprocket, or using a 12T lockring with an 11T cassette.

timothyw

Pilot Pete wrote:

philbar72 wrote:

if the chain skips every revolution, have you checked the quick link?

it’s a random skip when turning the pedals backwards on the stand, no pattern as such but seems to be the chainlne and the inner edge of the chain just catching on a tooth on the next bigger cog which lifts the chain slightly before it drops back on. The teeth are as new, no damage.

The noise when pedalling forwards is more annoying...!

PP

It obviously doesn't explain the problems when pedalling forwards, but derailleur gear systems aren't really designed to be pedalled backwards.

When the chain is at the extremes of the cassette (eg the small cogs) it's quite natural that it'll try to shift itself onto the bigger cogs, the chain wants to travel in a straight line back from the chainring it is on, often hopping onto the bigger adjacent cog will give it a straighter line.

The whole point of the rear derailleur is to receive the chain coming from the chainring and direct it onto the gear you want it to be on, not the gear that it wants to go on.

Similarly with the front derailleur. Run a bike without one of those and you'll soon find that the bike throws the chain because it doesn't want to be travelling at that funny angle - hence the need for narrow wide chainrings for 1x systems.

pilot_pete

Yeah I get what you are saying, just find it funny that the previous generation 9070 DA on my other bike with the same geometry is quiet and doesn’t do the skip thing when pedalling backwards! Very strange to me that an updated version should be so agricultural...

PP

bianchi_dave

Interesting and timely thread. Took the best bike out yesterday (running R9100) and it was stupidly noisy! It was fine before its winter hibernation. It has new wheels but everything is set up as it should be. Pedalling sounded like a cheapo diesel car circa 30 years ago!

Worse on big ring as others say, but quietest when in smallest sprockets at rear. Running a KMC X11sl gold chain (I pity the fool...). I started using Squirt wax lube after I heard good things about it. Could it simply be a lube problem? With the old chain last year I used Finshline Teflon Dry and it was fine. Do these wax lubes penetrate the chain rollers properly?

mr_mojo

I’ve looked at my DA 9150 system today to try and get to the bottom of the problem. Mine is only noisy on the big ring a 5th cog down on the cassette. Every other gear combination is near silent when running. Chain length ok, b screw adjusted correctly, Shimano DA chain installed ok with no stiff links and length correct. Completely stumped, groupset only covered about 250 miles so I’m guessing might just need running in?

Vino'sGhost

Noisy transmission the causes.

1 cleaning required. Easy to fix
2 more lube required. Easy to fix
3 gears need adjusting. relatively easy to fix
4 hanger or mech out of true. Relatively easy to fix
5 frame out of alignment. Once fixable not so much now.
6 B.B. our of alignment causing chain line issues . No chance to fix

Start worrying now

Vino'sGhost

Actually sometimes the cassettes are noisy, I’ve noticed Ultegra cassettes are often quieter.

bianchi_dave

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Noisy transmission the causes.

1 cleaning required. Easy to fix
2 more lube required. Easy to fix
3 gears need adjusting. relatively easy to fix
4 hanger or mech out of true. Relatively easy to fix
5 frame out of alignment. Once fixable not so much now.
6 B.B. our of alignment causing chain line issues . No chance to fix

Start worrying now

Think 2 is most likely in my case - don't think these wax lubes live up to the hype! I'm going to set up again from the beginning and puts loads more on.

Also should have said - I'm running an R8000 cassette with mine.

Nick Payne

MugenSi wrote:

One of the things that occurred to me is that could some of the cassette cogs be on the wrong way?

Not possible - the way the wide/narrow splines are arranged, the cogs won't go onto the freehub the wrong way around.

pilot_pete

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Noisy transmission the causes.

1 cleaning required. Easy to fix
2 more lube required. Easy to fix
3 gears need adjusting. relatively easy to fix
4 hanger or mech out of true. Relatively easy to fix
5 frame out of alignment. Once fixable not so much now.
6 B.B. our of alignment causing chain line issues . No chance to fix

Start worrying now

Nice ideas but none of which apply in my case, and I suspect others on here too - it seems a bit too common that the new top end Shimano groupset are displaying this agricultural noise on various different bikes, even with perfect shifting, not to be related to component design.

PP

Ben6899

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

How did you check the hanger for straightness?

With a gear hanger tool which screws in in place of the mech. A great big bar basically that allows you to lever the hanger into position. it has a gauge element, and the hanger is true when the gauge (read rod) is less than a mm from a known point on the rim at the 12, 3 6 and 9oclock positions. (use the same point on the rim to negate the effect of a rim with true or dishing problems)

Number one tool for diagnosing duff shifting once you've tried setting up properly.

Yeh that's how I do it too. But I'm aware some people consider a new hanger to be straight or consider a hanger to be straight if it sits nice and flat on a level surface.

As you say, you can only truly check hanger alignment with it fitted to the bike and with the correct tools.

OP have you done this?

champson

Ben6899 wrote:

OP have you done this?

Yes, with the Park Tool one, all was good. Also tried a new hanger just for the fun of it and alligned that correctly but still crappy gears.

cycleclinic

Normally skipping when back pedalling is a sign of a stiff link. Noise is odd. Someone needs to look at it as frankly all the contributions here are guesses and a scatter gun apporach is not going to resolve this.

Once a mechanic sees your bike they may have ideas or bits they can swap in to see what changes.

mr_mojo

Just an update on my DA 9150 issues. I changed the DA 9100 cassette today to an Ulgetra 6800 cassette. Rough running gone and the ticking noise when peddling that it recently developed has also gone. Happy days!

londonbairn

Obviously not the issue it seems for you but noticed with the new design of the RD on the Rxx00 series that it’s not forgiving in terms of chain length. I had setup what I thought was perfectly indexed R8050 and it wasn’t right. Checked chain length using a calculator online and took 1 inch off and was absolutely spot on afterwards.

pilot_pete

londonbairn wrote:

Obviously not the issue it seems for you but noticed with the new design of the RD on the Rxx00 series that it’s not forgiving in terms of chain length. I had setup what I thought was perfectly indexed R8050 and it wasn’t right. Checked chain length using a calculator online and took 1 inch off and was absolutely spot on afterwards.

But if you follow Shimano’s guide for chain length when you fit it I don’t see how it can be wrong by 1”. Also, the only way a long chain could affect indexing is if the jockey wheels are touching the chain as it comes back on itself when in a small/ small combo surely? I can’t see how else a long chain could affect the indexing, which is all about where the jockey wheels sit in relation to each cassette cog.

PP

champson

Mine's definitely not chain length. I calculated it following the shimano instructions, then added an extra link when someone suggested trying to make it a bit longer.
I've been riding around another 1000km since my last update hoping it would settle down after a few hundered km, but no such luck. I am going to strip it down again and will post an update. I'm probably going to try an Ultegra R8000 cassette as I need to change from 12-28 to 11-28 anyway, and since it seemed to help soneone else I'm inclined to give it a go.

svetty

champson wrote:

...... I need to change from 12-28 to 11-28....

Not sure you'need' to do this - 'want to' is probably closer to reality. Still, it's your bike and if you think you 'need' to then fair enough I guess. Personally I 'need' a 16 sprocket far more than I 'need' an 11......

champson

OK, 'need' then It's a compact chainset so 50/11 is currently my highest gear and I find I'm spinning out on the flat sometimes compared to my winter bike which has 50/12.

photonic69

champson wrote:

OK, 'need' then It's a compact chainset so 50/11 is currently my highest gear and I find I'm spinning out on the flat sometimes compared to my winter bike which has 50/12.

.....ummmmm....won't this make you 'spin out' even more? Think about it...

Ben6899

Also, how come you're not on a Pro contract?

keef66

champson wrote:

OK, 'need' then It's a compact chainset so 50/11 is currently my highest gear and I find I'm spinning out on the flat sometimes compared to my winter bike which has 50/12.

Something wrong there. Maybe your winter bike has a standard double chainset. Either way, do you really mean you spin out, on the flat, in 50/12?

50x12 at a cadence of 100 would see you hitting about 33mph, and 100 rpm isn't exactly spinning out. Are you in fact a professional?

http://www.bikecalc.com/speed_at_cadence

Back in my world, last night on my winter bike (don't ask) with a CX chainset I was still pedalling furiously downhill in 46/12 to reach 30mph. Back calculation suggests that was about 100 rpm, and I definitely wasn't spinning out.