Vuelta Podium Girls Change

rick_chasey

apreading wrote:

I hear plenty of women objectifying the men in lycra who cycle in the races too though. And oogling the nice looking tennic players or footballers. How are we going to stop that?

Difference is, as per above, is that the athletes aren't there exclusively as eye candy.

craigus89

If we're talking about the affect it has on young girls growing up and their values etc, then podium girls are a not even a drop in the ocean in comparison to most of the tripe they have to put up with from the entertainment industry.

lettingthedaysgoby

Craigus89 wrote:

If we're talking about the affect it has on young girls growing up and their values etc, then podium girls are a not even a drop in the ocean in comparison to most of the tripe they have to put up with from the entertainment industry.

It is all part of the same thing. Any steps - no matter how small - to combat it is a good thing.

Podium girls are something that should have been left back in the 1970's.

Lanterne_Rogue

apreading wrote:

And in answer to carpet man above - lack of femail F1 mechanics and engineers has nothing to do with sexism. F1 teams are one of the greatest meritocracies. It all about perfomance and if you think they would pass over a better engineer to hire a lesser man instead then you are wrong. We have had a couple of female team principals now too.

it might be a great meritocracy. The point is that they see only men there and assume that women aren't allowed. It absolutely affects the way they see the world and their place in it. As do podium girls.

lettingthedaysgoby

apreading wrote:

And in answer to carpet man above - lack of femail F1 mechanics and engineers has nothing to do with sexism. F1 teams are one of the greatest meritocracies. It all about perfomance and if you think they would pass over a better engineer to hire a lesser man instead then you are wrong. We have had a couple of female team principals now too.

(my bold)

You're completely ignoring the reasons why there aren't as many great female engineers in the first place.

apreading

underlayunderlay wrote:

apreading wrote:

And in answer to carpet man above - lack of femail F1 mechanics and engineers has nothing to do with sexism. F1 teams are one of the greatest meritocracies. It all about perfomance and if you think they would pass over a better engineer to hire a lesser man instead then you are wrong. We have had a couple of female team principals now too.

it might be a great meritocracy. The point is that they see only men there and assume that women aren't allowed. It absolutely affects the way they see the world and their place in it. As do podium girls.

Then it is their job to become a great engineer and change the balance. Removing podium girls wont help achieve this. Nor will applying quotas to artifically stimulate hiring of less qualified females in preference to males. Honestly, as a parent you should be explaining that the lack of female engineers in F1 is not about sexism, its about girls their age not choosing to train to do the job for no earthly reason.

Removing podium girls wont even register in the scheme of things, its just a drop in the ocean compared to all the TV ads, love island, the movie industry etc.

lettingthedaysgoby

apreading wrote:

the lack of female engineers in F1 is not about sexism, its about girls their age not choosing to train to do the job for no earthly reason.

It is entirely about sexism, and a world that tells little girls from a very early age that there are boys things and girls things. Walk into a toy shop or look at a shops childrens clothing section for a practical demonstration.

This stuff permeates every part of our society and it's incredibly hard to shake free from.

apreading

There is plenty of girl doctor stuff out there though, you have just offered a blinkered view:

dinyull

apreading wrote:

And in answer to carpet man above - lack of femail F1 mechanics and engineers has nothing to do with sexism. F1 teams are one of the greatest meritocracies. It all about perfomance and if you think they would pass over a better engineer to hire a lesser man instead then you are wrong. We have had a couple of female team principals now too.

And one of the best race strategists is female - Ruth Buscombe.

A problem with F1 mecahnics is an important part of the job is physical - the pit stops. I'm not saying it's impossible a female could do the job - not at all - but I'm sure it plays a role.

And I'd love to see how many female applicants they receive.

dinyull

Dinyull wrote:

apreading wrote:

And in answer to carpet man above - lack of femail F1 mechanics and engineers has nothing to do with sexism. F1 teams are one of the greatest meritocracies. It all about perfomance and if you think they would pass over a better engineer to hire a lesser man instead then you are wrong. We have had a couple of female team principals now too.

And one of the best race strategists is female - Ruth Buscombe.

A problem with F1 mecahnics is an important part of the job is physical - the pit stops. I'm not saying it's impossible a female could do the job - not at all - but I'm sure it plays a role.

And I'd love to see how many female applicants they receive.

And I recall a few femail engineers (Red Bull and Mercedes certainly) representing the teams on the podium after a race win.

apreading

What I cant find is any child sets for boys to be nurses - so it is actually the males who are being discriminated against and told they cant follow a particular career!

Lanterne_Rogue

apreading wrote:

What I cant find is any child sets for boys to be nurses - so it is actually the males who are being discriminated against and told they cant follow a particular career!

I don't know why you present this as a triumph? It's every bit the same tragedy.

apreading

According to Claire Williams:

These days it's just not true that women are being stopped from making it because of their sex. There's a host of successful and powerful women throughout the F1 paddock.

I actually think the blokes in F1 -- to put it bluntly --- love having women around the place. That gender divide doesn't really come up. The boys look after the boys as much as the boys look after the girls and the girls look after the boys. F1 is one of the only sports in the world that allows girls to line up and compete against men.

There are no barriers to a female lining up on the grid on a Sunday afternoon -- and competing against male rivals. Not a lot of sports can say that.

lettingthedaysgoby

apreading wrote:

There is plenty of girl doctor stuff out there though, you have just offered a blinkered view:

There are some, and thanks to lots of campaigning it's slowly getting better. But look at what you've posted - all "girls" versions. Pink. Glitter. All still saying that there is a difference.

If you can't look around the world and see how girls are told from their very earliest years that their options are different to boys you must be blind.

apreading

lettingthedaysgoby wrote:

But look at what you've posted - all "girls" versions. Pink. Glitter. All still saying that there is a difference.

If you can't look around the world and see how girls are told from their very earliest years that their options are different to boys you must be blind.

I posted the pink versions with pictures of girls in response to a post showing that pink girls play sets were about nurses, whereas boys blue sets were for doctors.

there are plenty of gender neutral versions too.







And the funny thing is that pink used to be the colour for boys and blue for girls!

ben@31

Is being a Podium Girl any different to a modelling career ?

I wouldn't be surprised if they're hired through modelling agencies.

Have many of you outraged people have actually asked the podium girls their opinion, are they happy? Did anyone hold a gun to their head and forced the Podium Girls to do that job against their wishes? How would the Podium Girls feel if you made them redundant, especially those seeking portfolios for modelling contracts.

If you think podium girls are bad... How many female television anchors get their job, because of their looks?

rick_chasey

It's more what it represents.

The men are there for their abilities and achievements. The women to be good looking as adornments for the photo.

above_the_cows

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's more what it represents.

The men are there for their abilities and achievements. The women to be good looking as adornments for the photo.

^This. As a woman and someone who has loved cycling as a sport to watch and as a sport to do my whole life. It bothers me for exactly this reason.

bm5

A step in the right direction. These things definitely do matter. Not too great if they are just adding good looking guys. What about ex pro from the area or something like that.

above_the_cows

BM5 wrote:

A step in the right direction. These things definitely do matter. Not too great if they are just adding good looking guys. What about ex pro from the area or something like that.

This would be a good idea, or some local cyclist or other sports person who is successful.

RichN95.

BM5 wrote:

A step in the right direction. These things definitely do matter. Not too great if they are just adding good looking guys. What about ex pro from the area or something like that.

They've got Oscar Pereiro doing the Bernard Hinault role

bobmcstuff

Something that seems to be missing from the discussion is that the world of VIP hosting is presumably heavily dominated by attractive women. It's just this type of event where they become publicly visible.

The argument that "they enjoy it therefore it's fine" is a bit of a red herring - I'm sure they do enjoy it, but fundamentally you're talking about a job role which is gendered for no good reason.

Above The Cows wrote:

BM5 wrote:

A step in the right direction. These things definitely do matter. Not too great if they are just adding good looking guys. What about ex pro from the area or something like that.

This would be a good idea, or some local cyclist or other sports person who is successful.

I prefer junior racers or having a competition for local kids to enter etc. - gives them a chance to meet their heroes and would be really good for outreach/engagement/PR. Make it mean something.

above_the_cows

bobmcstuff wrote:

Something that seems to be missing from the discussion is that the world of VIP hosting is presumably heavily dominated by attractive women. It's just this type of event where they become publicly visible.

The argument that "they enjoy it therefore it's fine" is a bit of a red herring - I'm sure they do enjoy it, but fundamentally you're talking about a job role which is gendered for no good reason.

Yep.

bobmcstuff wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

BM5 wrote:

A step in the right direction. These things definitely do matter. Not too great if they are just adding good looking guys. What about ex pro from the area or something like that.

This would be a good idea, or some local cyclist or other sports person who is successful.

I prefer junior racers or having a competition for local kids to enter etc. - gives them a chance to meet their heroes and would be really good for outreach/engagement/PR. Make it mean something.

Very good idea.

Lanterne_Rogue

bobmcstuff wrote:

I'm sure they do enjoy it, but fundamentally you're talking about a job role which is gendered for no good reason.

This is a big part of my issue with it (I'm not very good at articulating everything that gets my goat with it, as you might have gathered). If you explicitly make some roles gendered, especially without any good reason to do so, then it reinforces the idea that implicit genderisation must also have a reason.

That's why my daughter's reaction to Formula 1 mechanics stuck in my mind - they saw an exclusively male garage and wondered why women weren't allowed, rather than assuming it was just one of those things and that the opportunities were equal. Telling them that some jobs are reserved for certain genders only reinforces that.

lettingthedaysgoby

And here's the thing - in F1 (and countless other areas) it's not just one of those things and the opportunities aren't equal. Your daughters reaction was entirely correct.

apreading

underlayunderlay wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

I'm sure they do enjoy it, but fundamentally you're talking about a job role which is gendered for no good reason.

This is a big part of my issue with it (I'm not very good at articulating everything that gets my goat with it, as you might have gathered). If you explicitly make some roles gendered, especially without any good reason to do so, then it reinforces the idea that implicit genderisation must also have a reason.

That's why my daughter's reaction to Formula 1 mechanics stuck in my mind - they saw an exclusively male garage and wondered why women weren't allowed, rather than assuming it was just one of those things and that the opportunities were equal. Telling them that some jobs are reserved for certain genders only reinforces that.

But surely by the same token, they will still wonder why women dont ride in the same races? Some jobs are reserved for certain genders only. And surely the gender being discriminated against in the case of podium girls is the men?

In fact formula 1 is possibly the only sport which doesnt segregate the sexes in competition.

above_the_cows

apreading wrote:

Some jobs are reserved for certain genders only. And surely the gender being discriminated against in the case of podium girls is the men?

And that is the problem. There is no reason why podium presentations need to be done by only women.

apreading wrote:

In fact formula 1 is possibly the only sport which doesnt segregate the sexes in competition.

In equestrian sports women actually compete against men. Gender doesn't matter and women are plentiful and just as successful. Formula 1 is a shītty hill to choose to die on in a discussion about gender in sports.

Broono83

Whats the logical end point of all this though?

What about when your daughter asks why there are no women in Froome's group up the Galibier? Is it sexist to have separate men's and women's races? Is it sexist if we have single sex races and the men always win?

Lanterne_Rogue

apreading wrote:

But surely by the same token, they will still wonder why women dont ride in the same races?

We have those discussions, and we talk about why bodies are different, and we talk about why the most important thing about sport is that it should be interesting to watch, and why watching Lizzie Deignan get spat out the back on the first climb wouldn't make for compelling viewing - but watching her take on someone with broadly the same physiology is quite fun. We also talk about why women's sport across the board is chronically and disgracefully underfunded and under-reported.

above_the_cows

underlayunderlay wrote:

apreading wrote:

But surely by the same token, they will still wonder why women dont ride in the same races?

We have those discussions, and we talk about why bodies are different, and we talk about why the most important thing about sport is that it should be interesting to watch, and why watching Lizzie Deignan get spat out the back on the first climb wouldn't make for compelling viewing - but watching her take on someone with broadly the same physiology is quite fun. We also talk about why women's sport across the board is chronically and disgracefully underfunded and under-reported.

This is going to sound a bit quattro formaggi but your daughter is lucky to have a dad like you.