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Public Sector 1% Pay Rise Cap - Why Are There No Protests?

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  • john80john80 Posts: 1,231
    john80 wrote:
    For example since 2010 the government has increased the minimum wage, increased the lower threshold for paying tax to benefit the real low earners.

    Being pedantic, increasing the lower threshold does not benefit the very lowest earners at all.

    In 2010 the lower earnings threshold was £6475 and in 2017 this is £11500. The minimum wage was £5.93 and now is £7.50. If we assume that people work around 1665 hours per year based on 45 weeks at 37 hours a week then the changes above result in a 26% pay increase or 3.3% per year which is pretty generous from a Tory government.

    Then we get onto say your average nurse getting £30000 per year assuming they have been working for a number of years. The increase in the threshold is worth around £1005 to this person which is effectively a 3.35% increase over the eight years. The issue of brexit and inflation mainly through currency devaluation has affected people living standards but does not detract from the fact that the overall tax regime has changed to benefit the poorer working individual. As they say the numbers don't lie even if the electorate cannot do the sums themselves.

    Whilst you may be right that someone earning below the threshold is unchanged but given they were not paying tax already I am not really sure what you are advocating to make them better off.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 12,006
    john80 wrote:
    Whilst you may be right that someone earning below the threshold is unchanged but given they were not paying tax already I am not really sure what you are advocating to make them better off.

    I'm not advocating anything, but the raising of the threshold is often held up as a way of helping the very lowest earners, which it doesn't.
  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,962
    john80 wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    For example since 2010 the government has increased the minimum wage, increased the lower threshold for paying tax to benefit the real low earners.

    Being pedantic, increasing the lower threshold does not benefit the very lowest earners at all.

    In 2010 the lower earnings threshold was £6475 and in 2017 this is £11500. The minimum wage was £5.93 and now is £7.50. If we assume that people work around 1665 hours per year based on 45 weeks at 37 hours a week then the changes above result in a 26% pay increase or 3.3% per year which is pretty generous from a Tory government.

    Then we get onto say your average nurse getting £30000 per year assuming they have been working for a number of years. The increase in the threshold is worth around £1005 to this person which is effectively a 3.35% increase over the eight years. The issue of brexit and inflation mainly through currency devaluation has affected people living standards but does not detract from the fact that the overall tax regime has changed to benefit the poorer working individual. As they say the numbers don't lie even if the electorate cannot do the sums themselves.

    Whilst you may be right that someone earning below the threshold is unchanged but given they were not paying tax already I am not really sure what you are advocating to make them better off.

    Only an average nurse doesn't earn £30k. Maybe in London, but in the rest of the UK average is about £25k.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 11,441
    dinyull wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    For example since 2010 the government has increased the minimum wage, increased the lower threshold for paying tax to benefit the real low earners.

    Being pedantic, increasing the lower threshold does not benefit the very lowest earners at all.

    In 2010 the lower earnings threshold was £6475 and in 2017 this is £11500. The minimum wage was £5.93 and now is £7.50. If we assume that people work around 1665 hours per year based on 45 weeks at 37 hours a week then the changes above result in a 26% pay increase or 3.3% per year which is pretty generous from a Tory government.

    Then we get onto say your average nurse getting £30000 per year assuming they have been working for a number of years. The increase in the threshold is worth around £1005 to this person which is effectively a 3.35% increase over the eight years. The issue of brexit and inflation mainly through currency devaluation has affected people living standards but does not detract from the fact that the overall tax regime has changed to benefit the poorer working individual. As they say the numbers don't lie even if the electorate cannot do the sums themselves.

    Whilst you may be right that someone earning below the threshold is unchanged but given they were not paying tax already I am not really sure what you are advocating to make them better off.

    Only an average nurse doesn't earn £30k. Maybe in London, but in the rest of the UK average is about £25k.

    Fully qualified nurses start on salaries of £22,128 rising to £28,746 on Band 5 of the NHS Agenda for Change Pay Rates. Salaries in London attract a high-cost area supplement. With experience, in positions such as nurse team leader on Band 6, salaries progress to £26,565 to £35,577.
    https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/adult-nurse
  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,962
    So average is about £25k in UK then?
  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,962
    Seeing as band 6 aren't average nurses that is.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    Its pretty shitte really isnt it? add in the 9k per year fees and mtce grants for the compulsory degree and unless you r a budding Florence, why would anyone chose nursing as a career?

    i mean i bet Stevo is on 4 x this min, for doing what exactly? i m double and i fcuk around with bits of tech woooooo!
  • Jez monJez mon Posts: 3,809
    I guess agency work is more lucrative?
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,962
    Jez mon wrote:
    I guess agency work is more lucrative?

    Absolutely. Only negative with that is you don't know where your working week to week. Wife's step dad works in NHS as agency staff and earns much, much better because of it. Much!

    So much so that they really shouldn't allow it....but then they're short 24k nurses as it is and don't want to drive any away to private, even the agency workers.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    Jez mon wrote:
    I guess agency work is more lucrative?

    i think they can turn down work?
    the HCA 's and 2 nurses who looked after my mum (and others of course), all left the nhs community hospital and went to work for an agency, more money true but the big adv was being able to pick an chose working hours and which wards, so no mental health or geriatric stuff....
    the hospital itself had to close for while as they few staff, more strain on the district hosp.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    surrey commuter we are not even close to greece. We have our own currency, our own central bank and that make alot of difference. We also have goods and service to sell and less corruption at all levels of society. Yes debt is too high but even with "austerity" lite the debt still climbs and we show no signs of getting back into surplus any time soon. So austerity lite does not seem to be working so what exactly is your suggestion. I have made mine.

    Also I was not arguing that a pay rise should be used as a fiscal boost. I was arguing it would be not as expensive as people might think. When tied in with other stimulus packages it can act as a boost but by itself it wont. The fiscal boost comes come infrastructure investment which is sorely needed in almost every sector. What you spend must be raised in taxes. that means tax rises. I dont advocate spend and put on the never never account.

    Also borrow and spend is what all goverments do they then use taxes to pay the debt.

    US governemnt debt is 106% of GDP in Japan it is over 200% none of those countries are labeled as the next greece. You can fetishes debt and become obbessed with reducing to the deteriment of the country. You can also not worry about it all and let it climb. Both extremes are bad. We are in the former extreme. I advocate a middle path bring the debt down but don't be afraid to raise the money through taxes.

    I also dont mind paying the licence fee. Sky cost more every month and I prefer the Beeb. Dam fine value for money.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 50,667 Lives Here
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:

    Although Stevo works in accountancy which is a zero sum world, whereas the government works in the macro economic world which isn't zero sum. .
    Easy assumption to make if you don't really understand. And wrong.

    Which bit? ;).
    I thought you would take issue with Jez' stereotypical, zero sum view of accountants. Unless of course you have a similar view? :wink:

    Not of all accountants, just you.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 11,441
    surrey commuter we are not even close to greece. We have our own currency, our own central bank and that make alot of difference. We also have goods and service to sell and less corruption at all levels of society. Yes debt is too high but even with "austerity" lite the debt still climbs and we show no signs of getting back into surplus any time soon. So austerity lite does not seem to be working so what exactly is your suggestion. I have made mine.

    Also I was not arguing that a pay rise should be used as a fiscal boost. I was arguing it would be not as expensive as people might think. When tied in with other stimulus packages it can act as a boost but by itself it wont. The fiscal boost comes come infrastructure investment which is sorely needed in almost every sector. What you spend must be raised in taxes. that means tax rises. I dont advocate spend and put on the never never account.

    Also borrow and spend is what all goverments do they then use taxes to pay the debt.

    US governemnt debt is 106% of GDP in Japan it is over 200% none of those countries are labeled as the next greece. You can fetishes debt and become obbessed with reducing to the deteriment of the country. You can also not worry about it all and let it climb. Both extremes are bad. We are in the former extreme. I advocate a middle path bring the debt down but don't be afraid to raise the money through taxes.

    I also dont mind paying the licence fee. Sky cost more every month and I prefer the Beeb. Dam fine value for money.

    I answered the Greek question in a later post.

    I have never seen evidence that a fiscal boost is the best way to spend money. There is an upper limit on the amount of tax that can be raised we are close or at that long term limit.

    Your policy of reducing debt is admirable but would put you (with me) in a small % and certainly not on a middle path. We have all but given up on reducing the deficit so can't see us going out the other side and running a surplus. Don't forget that we are clsoer to the next recession than we are the last one.

    What would I do - I would freeze the upper tax allowances and let fiscal drag do the work. Integrate Tax and NI as one honest tax this would raise more money from unearned income.
    I would also scrap HS2, Hinckley Point and Trident. I would bear down on housing benefit. I would sell the newly built aircraft carrier and not build the 2nd one. Scrap the pension triple lock whilst also scrapping winter fuel allowance and bus passes and putting it onto pensions so it would become taxable. And I would have regional pay bargaining for the NHS and give discretion to increase wages to overcome skill shortages (and vice versa)

    I would look at Govt money to seed innovation (eg silicon roundabout) and make us a world leader in new tech/products.. eg the Govt could have made sure the country was covered in car recharging points so helping us become a hub for electric cars and hopefully battery development. We have the second largest tidal fall in the world, and extensive offshore capabilities so why not become invest in that area. In a nutshell stop propping up ailing industries and invest in the future.

    All of this would be political suicide so I would be ruling after a military coup had installed me as a dictator so the first thing I would do is retract Article 50.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 42,213
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:

    Although Stevo works in accountancy which is a zero sum world, whereas the government works in the macro economic world which isn't zero sum. .
    Easy assumption to make if you don't really understand. And wrong.

    Which bit? ;).
    I thought you would take issue with Jez' stereotypical, zero sum view of accountants. Unless of course you have a similar view? :wink:

    Not of all accountants, just you.
    Aw boo hoo :wink:

    Now start playing the ball not the man, or else jog on.
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  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    rich from you, the one who seems to take delight in barbed comments aimed at me and anyone else with a left of centre opinion.
    i asked an earlier Q which you ignored, so justify your profession? lol!
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 42,213
    mamba80 wrote:
    rich from you, the one who seems to take delight in barbed comments aimed at me and anyone else with a left of centre opinion.
    i asked an earlier Q which you ignored, so justify your profession? lol!
    Just spotted that - happy to reply.
    Whippet
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 42,213
    mamba80 wrote:
    Its pretty shitte really isnt it? add in the 9k per year fees and mtce grants for the compulsory degree and unless you r a budding Florence, why would anyone chose nursing as a career?

    i mean i bet Stevo is on 4 x this min, for doing what exactly? i m double and i fcuk around with bits of tech woooooo!
    Regardless of what that multiple is, like you and most other employees I am only worth what a willing employer is prepared to pay me. And that's the way it should be IMO because its a market for our services.

    What they are willing to pay me depends on various factors including supply and demand (we benchmark against the market), the amount I can add to the bottom line, level of risks mitigated, costs managed, reams of legislation complied with, taking judgment calls on complex issues, building a good team, keeping them motivated and performing, facilitating business transactions, cutting through the censored and telling people what they need to do in plain English, helping the board make sensible decisions, and supporting the business generally to get things done. I could go on :wink:

    I'm in the fortunate position that these things are worth a fair bit to my employer without having to flog myself to death, but then again that's partly the reason for my career choice.
    Whippet
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    Panzer
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    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Surrey commuter I would actually increase the Defense budget and keep/renew trident. Those aircraft carriers need a proper carrier groups so more spending is needed. The military when used properly is a excellent arm of the foreign office. We are quite lacking on the diplomacy front and it is all down to us thinking small. We have to cut cut cut and we become small in the process. think big dare to dream and britain could be quite a different place.

    There are many drags on the economy at present.

    Lack of skilled workers so employers import skilled workers from abroad and lack companies lack the skills to improve productivity by employing new technology or if they know how to they cant get the staff to make proper use of it.

    housing there is a big shortage but there is also a big shortage of people to build houses. See above point. Housing cant get built in the right places or if it can not in enough numbers to make a difference.

    The education system is geared far to much to churning out 18 year olds with academic knowledge good for an exam and getting into university to get a degree under the mistaken belief that a degree gets you a good job. It is skills that get people jobs or allow them to set up a business. Thankfully there are young folk who succeed despite our education system.

    Transport infrastructure is not great. We are over reliant on the car and we have to be because there is no other realistic way for moving the population. There is enough traffic down the A131 to justify a train line but there is none and if there was it would be to expensive given how we fund it. I could get the bus to my shop but it would be cheaper to drive my 1988 BMW 530i there and back. £7 the bus cost for the round trip.

    The country is over centralised. County councils should be raising around 50% of what they spend. The range of comptencies they have should be expanded. schools should go back to local authority control and more power for transport and housing policies. Councils should be able to build house and manage there own stock without the right to buy proceeds going to central government. Right to buy would have to be changed as the council should be able to decide which house it sells and at what price in order that there housing stock is the right places as that will change with time. The private sector obvious is having trouble building enough housing so maybe they need help with finance and getting planning consent e.t.c. Something is wrong for sure. I am quite lucky in that I own my own house in a estate built to the parker morris standard. It is lovely apart from the litter. housing like this needs to be built today.

    I would also let councils take a share of income tax (national income tax and NICS would be merged), VAT, corporation tax. this would incentivise council to aadopt policies that incomes and therefore tax take in way they don't currently do. Council tax would go and be replaced with a local income tax rates and a local business tax which I would no put upper or lower bounds on. Devolution means that handing over central control.

    As part of that I would devolve national pay structures for teachers and other public sector workers to the local level. Why should a teacher in suffolk be paid the same ammount as a teacher in yorkshire? I used to be a teacher and I could not see why.

    Pensions need massive reform. the state pension has to go. I would instead like to see everyone get a pension account into which your contributions get paid and you get to decide who they are invested with. that mwans you have one pension pot not several. the state can make contributions on behalf of those who cant and the retirement age can be abolished. What I dont think there should be when I come up to retirement is a state pension. It is time to start phasing it out and getting a grip on the problem of having multiple pensions that are incompatible that mean retirement income might be compromised. Also final salary pension scheme would not be possible in this arrangement I dont think that is a bad thing though. all they do is cause problem with financing them.

    The public sector pay debate is important but if we want to be able to pay people more and I think there is a good case for that we have to able to pay for it. Spending money in the right places education and infrastructure will help alot but also changing how we govern ourselves could transform this country and afford the services and infrastructure that we want.

    U,K government debt maybe 89% of GDP but after world war II debt was 180% of GDP and what did we do, set up the NHS and build alot of houses. Why, we believed we could and we did.

    The US government has debt of 106% of GDP and no one talk of them being like Greece. Japans public debt is 250% of GDP. the point being focusing on the ammount of debt alone limits the choices we as country actually have although being concerned about it is probably a good thing.

    Sadly none of the above is likely as when did administrative reform become a vote winner. So we might have to settle for a lifting of the pay cap a little bit and a few crumbs form the treasury on infrastructure spending.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 11,441
    Surrey commuter I would actually increase the Defense budget and keep/renew trident. Those aircraft carriers need a proper carrier groups so more spending is needed. The military when used properly is a excellent arm of the foreign office. We are quite lacking on the diplomacy front and it is all down to us thinking small. We have to cut cut cut and we become small in the process. think big dare to dream and britain could be quite a different place.

    There are many drags on the economy at present.

    Lack of skilled workers so employers import skilled workers from abroad and lack companies lack the skills to improve productivity by employing new technology or if they know how to they cant get the staff to make proper use of it.

    housing there is a big shortage but there is also a big shortage of people to build houses. See above point. Housing cant get built in the right places or if it can not in enough numbers to make a difference.

    The education system is geared far to much to churning out 18 year olds with academic knowledge good for an exam and getting into university to get a degree under the mistaken belief that a degree gets you a good job. It is skills that get people jobs or allow them to set up a business. Thankfully there are young folk who succeed despite our education system.

    Transport infrastructure is not great. We are over reliant on the car and we have to be because there is no other realistic way for moving the population. There is enough traffic down the A131 to justify a train line but there is none and if there was it would be to expensive given how we fund it. I could get the bus to my shop but it would be cheaper to drive my 1988 BMW 530i there and back. £7 the bus cost for the round trip.

    The country is over centralised. County councils should be raising around 50% of what they spend. The range of comptencies they have should be expanded. schools should go back to local authority control and more power for transport and housing policies. Councils should be able to build house and manage there own stock without the right to buy proceeds going to central government. Right to buy would have to be changed as the council should be able to decide which house it sells and at what price in order that there housing stock is the right places as that will change with time. The private sector obvious is having trouble building enough housing so maybe they need help with finance and getting planning consent e.t.c. Something is wrong for sure. I am quite lucky in that I own my own house in a estate built to the parker morris standard. It is lovely apart from the litter. housing like this needs to be built today.

    I would also let councils take a share of income tax (national income tax and NICS would be merged), VAT, corporation tax. this would incentivise council to aadopt policies that incomes and therefore tax take in way they don't currently do. Council tax would go and be replaced with a local income tax rates and a local business tax which I would no put upper or lower bounds on. Devolution means that handing over central control.

    As part of that I would devolve national pay structures for teachers and other public sector workers to the local level. Why should a teacher in suffolk be paid the same ammount as a teacher in yorkshire? I used to be a teacher and I could not see why.

    Pensions need massive reform. the state pension has to go. I would instead like to see everyone get a pension account into which your contributions get paid and you get to decide who they are invested with. that mwans you have one pension pot not several. the state can make contributions on behalf of those who cant and the retirement age can be abolished. What I dont think there should be when I come up to retirement is a state pension. It is time to start phasing it out and getting a grip on the problem of having multiple pensions that are incompatible that mean retirement income might be compromised. Also final salary pension scheme would not be possible in this arrangement I dont think that is a bad thing though. all they do is cause problem with financing them.

    The public sector pay debate is important but if we want to be able to pay people more and I think there is a good case for that we have to able to pay for it. Spending money in the right places education and infrastructure will help alot but also changing how we govern ourselves could transform this country and afford the services and infrastructure that we want.

    U,K government debt maybe 89% of GDP but after world war II debt was 180% of GDP and what did we do, set up the NHS and build alot of houses. Why, we believed we could and we did.

    The US government has debt of 106% of GDP and no one talk of them being like Greece. Japans public debt is 250% of GDP. the point being focusing on the ammount of debt alone limits the choices we as country actually have although being concerned about it is probably a good thing.

    Sadly none of the above is likely as when did administrative reform become a vote winner. So we might have to settle for a lifting of the pay cap a little bit and a few crumbs form the treasury on infrastructure spending.

    Some of us believe debt matters and some don't (you are not alone). We will never agree as whilst you have some good ideas it just reads like an uncosted wish list to me.
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,757
    This thread started off quite well has sadly deviated and descended into an economics and political argument witha side of discussion.

    The question is WHY DON'T THE BRITISH PUBLIC STAND UP FOR WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT AND DEMONSTRATE AND MARCH EN MASS FOR INJUSTICE ? 1% PAY CAP FOR PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS AT THIS EXTENDED LENGTH IS A GROSS INJUSTICE. WHY ARE WE AS A NATION SO SUBSERVIENT AND COW TOWED BY THOSE IN POWER?
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 50,667 Lives Here
    Mr Goo wrote:
    This thread started off quite well has sadly deviated and descended into an economics and political argument witha side of discussion.

    The question is WHY DON'T THE BRITISH PUBLIC STAND UP FOR WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT AND DEMONSTRATE AND MARCH EN MASS FOR INJUSTICE ? 1% PAY CAP FOR PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS AT THIS EXTENDED LENGTH IS A GROSS INJUSTICE. WHY ARE WE AS A NATION SO SUBSERVIENT AND COW TOWED BY THOSE IN POWER?

    Because Brits are greedy bastards.


    Happy?
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    Mr Goo wrote:
    This thread started off quite well has sadly deviated and descended into an economics and political argument witha side of discussion.

    The question is WHY DON'T THE BRITISH PUBLIC STAND UP FOR WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT AND DEMONSTRATE AND MARCH EN MASS FOR INJUSTICE ? 1% PAY CAP FOR PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS AT THIS EXTENDED LENGTH IS A GROSS INJUSTICE. WHY ARE WE AS A NATION SO SUBSERVIENT AND COW TOWED BY THOSE IN POWER?

    i answered your Q earlier, so i ll try again!
    Look at what happened with the junior Doc's? did they get what they wanted? 285k nurses cant go on strike, they know it, the GOV knows it, so they get little in the way of pay rises long before the current pay cap, how long would say council workers need to go on strike, with loss of pay and quite likely dismissal and still not get jack?

    Its also v hard to go on strike, anti union laws after 1979 have seen to that, many who work in public services arent in militant unions or even in a union! its one thing to organise a few 100 train drivers, quite different to garner support from 100s of 1000s, public support would nt be there either, private sector workers havent been getting pay rises either, dont be fooled by the figures, the masses havent been getting 2 or 3 %.

    anyhow, i though you were a tory? so surely you have voted plenty enough for this outcome?
  • BelgianBeerGeekBelgianBeerGeek Posts: 5,230
    Mr Goo wrote:
    This thread started off quite well has sadly deviated and descended into an economics and political argument witha side of discussion.

    The question is WHY DON'T THE BRITISH PUBLIC STAND UP FOR WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT AND DEMONSTRATE AND MARCH EN MASS FOR INJUSTICE ? 1% PAY CAP FOR PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS AT THIS EXTENDED LENGTH IS A GROSS INJUSTICE. WHY ARE WE AS A NATION SO SUBSERVIENT AND COW TOWED BY THOSE IN POWER?
    Because no-one's bothered
    Ecrasez l’infame
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,757
    Mr Goo wrote:
    This thread started off quite well has sadly deviated and descended into an economics and political argument witha side of discussion.

    The question is WHY DON'T THE BRITISH PUBLIC STAND UP FOR WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT AND DEMONSTRATE AND MARCH EN MASS FOR INJUSTICE ? 1% PAY CAP FOR PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS AT THIS EXTENDED LENGTH IS A GROSS INJUSTICE. WHY ARE WE AS A NATION SO SUBSERVIENT AND COW TOWED BY THOSE IN POWER?
    Because no-one's bothered

    I think you're probably right. Seems hardly anyone on here cares one iota. Better to take it up the Arsenal just so long as you can watch Eastenders and have a pint at the weekend.
    I'm not talking about strikes. I'm talking about rallies and demonstrations. Why aren't thousands descending on Westminster, city halls and town halls, city & town centres.

    What has happened to the psyche of the British population that was so forthright and upstanding at the turn of the 20th Century but has completely deserted us in the 21st Century. This is not a question of economics or political stance but more about who and what we are and have become...... A hive of drones?
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,242
    Surrey commuter I would actually increase the Defense budget and keep/renew trident. Those aircraft carriers need a proper carrier groups so more spending is needed. The military when used properly is a excellent arm of the foreign office. We are quite lacking on the diplomacy front and it is all down to us thinking small. We have to cut cut cut and we become small in the process. think big dare to dream and britain could be quite a different place.

    There are many drags on the economy at present.

    Lack of skilled workers so employers import skilled workers from abroad and lack companies lack the skills to improve productivity by employing new technology or if they know how to they cant get the staff to make proper use of it.

    housing there is a big shortage but there is also a big shortage of people to build houses. See above point. Housing cant get built in the right places or if it can not in enough numbers to make a difference.

    The education system is geared far to much to churning out 18 year olds with academic knowledge good for an exam and getting into university to get a degree under the mistaken belief that a degree gets you a good job. It is skills that get people jobs or allow them to set up a business. Thankfully there are young folk who succeed despite our education system.

    Transport infrastructure is not great. We are over reliant on the car and we have to be because there is no other realistic way for moving the population. There is enough traffic down the A131 to justify a train line but there is none and if there was it would be to expensive given how we fund it. I could get the bus to my shop but it would be cheaper to drive my 1988 BMW 530i there and back. £7 the bus cost for the round trip.

    The country is over centralised. County councils should be raising around 50% of what they spend. The range of comptencies they have should be expanded. schools should go back to local authority control and more power for transport and housing policies. Councils should be able to build house and manage there own stock without the right to buy proceeds going to central government. Right to buy would have to be changed as the council should be able to decide which house it sells and at what price in order that there housing stock is the right places as that will change with time. The private sector obvious is having trouble building enough housing so maybe they need help with finance and getting planning consent e.t.c. Something is wrong for sure. I am quite lucky in that I own my own house in a estate built to the parker morris standard. It is lovely apart from the litter. housing like this needs to be built today.

    I would also let councils take a share of income tax (national income tax and NICS would be merged), VAT, corporation tax. this would incentivise council to aadopt policies that incomes and therefore tax take in way they don't currently do. Council tax would go and be replaced with a local income tax rates and a local business tax which I would no put upper or lower bounds on. Devolution means that handing over central control.

    As part of that I would devolve national pay structures for teachers and other public sector workers to the local level. Why should a teacher in suffolk be paid the same ammount as a teacher in yorkshire? I used to be a teacher and I could not see why.

    Pensions need massive reform. the state pension has to go. I would instead like to see everyone get a pension account into which your contributions get paid and you get to decide who they are invested with. that mwans you have one pension pot not several. the state can make contributions on behalf of those who cant and the retirement age can be abolished. What I dont think there should be when I come up to retirement is a state pension. It is time to start phasing it out and getting a grip on the problem of having multiple pensions that are incompatible that mean retirement income might be compromised. Also final salary pension scheme would not be possible in this arrangement I dont think that is a bad thing though. all they do is cause problem with financing them.

    The public sector pay debate is important but if we want to be able to pay people more and I think there is a good case for that we have to able to pay for it. Spending money in the right places education and infrastructure will help alot but also changing how we govern ourselves could transform this country and afford the services and infrastructure that we want.

    U,K government debt maybe 89% of GDP but after world war II debt was 180% of GDP and what did we do, set up the NHS and build alot of houses. Why, we believed we could and we did.

    The US government has debt of 106% of GDP and no one talk of them being like Greece. Japans public debt is 250% of GDP. the point being focusing on the ammount of debt alone limits the choices we as country actually have although being concerned about it is probably a good thing.

    Sadly none of the above is likely as when did administrative reform become a vote winner. So we might have to settle for a lifting of the pay cap a little bit and a few crumbs form the treasury on infrastructure spending.

    Some of us believe debt matters and some don't (you are not alone). We will never agree as whilst you have some good ideas it just reads like an uncosted wish list to me.

    To be fair, I didn't see any figures on your manifesto, just picking the three most popular whipping boys and claim scrapping them will provide enormous but unspecified savings. If Hinckley Point C is cancelled there would probably need to be a big payoff to the private investors plus the generating capacity would need to be provided in some other way. All the serious arguments I have seen against HS2 (which is already underway) have suggested that there are other rail infrastructure projects more deserving, not just withdrawing the investment altogether. Given what is going on in NK, I think it would be a brave person that thought we didn’t need to worry about nuclear weapons any more.
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  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 11,441
    Mr Goo wrote:
    This thread started off quite well has sadly deviated and descended into an economics and political argument witha side of discussion.

    The question is WHY DON'T THE BRITISH PUBLIC STAND UP FOR WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT AND DEMONSTRATE AND MARCH EN MASS FOR INJUSTICE ? 1% PAY CAP FOR PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS AT THIS EXTENDED LENGTH IS A GROSS INJUSTICE. WHY ARE WE AS A NATION SO SUBSERVIENT AND COW TOWED BY THOSE IN POWER?

    So your wife works in the NHS and you think she deserves a payrise to increase your household income. Separately you can't be ar5ed to work harder and earn more money.

    and then you wonder why people can't be ar5ed to go on a march so others can increase their household income
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 11,441
    [/quote]

    Some of us believe debt matters and some don't (you are not alone). We will never agree as whilst you have some good ideas it just reads like an uncosted wish list to me.[/quote]

    To be fair, I didn't see any figures on your manifesto, just picking the three most popular whipping boys and claim scrapping them will provide enormous but unspecified savings. If Hinckley Point C is cancelled there would probably need to be a big payoff to the private investors plus the generating capacity would need to be provided in some other way. All the serious arguments I have seen against HS2 (which is already underway) have suggested that there are other rail infrastructure projects more deserving, not just withdrawing the investment altogether. Given what is going on in NK, I think it would be a brave person that thought we didn’t need to worry about nuclear weapons any more.[/quote]

    frankly I cba to cost it up but at least I have a mixture of revenue raising measures and cost savings. He is only spending money.

    Yes it is a costly decision to scrap those projects but will save far more in the long-term.

    Oh and i would scrap all farm subsidies - that would save £3bn a year. And scrap agric tariffs so helping reduce food prices which will have biggest impact on the poor.

    NK will never be able to hit us with a nuke as it is too far and would have to fly over China and Russia. We have to get Yank permission to launch so not independent. Why can't we just have land based ones? which ties in with my defence review which would scrap the Navy, RAF and army and replace it with an integrated force based upon the USMC whose responsibility would be the defence of the UK (not twatting around pretending to be a global policeman). As we have more admirals than ships and more generals than regiments this should save us more money
  • MrSwearyMrSweary Posts: 1,699
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Why aren't thousands descending on Westminster, city halls and town halls, city & town centres.

    Perhaps people think the pay cap is fair, or they think it isn't unfair enough to protest about. Something the politically motivated can't seem to grasp (and lack of empathy seems to be a defining characteristic) is that the vast majority of the populace aren't interested in politics - they look, if they look at all, at the venal, two faced machinations from all parts of the political spectrum and they see nothing there for them. Most people want to get on quietly with their lives and try to do whatever makes them happy.

    To go back to one of the earlier threads - I'd happily pay a bit more for the NHS if I thought the money would be spent wisely. Very clearly it hasn't been for many many years across several different governments.
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  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 12,006
    My company has only had 1% pay rises the last few years and 2% this. Other people only getting 1% isn't really enough to make me take to the streets.

    What's the pension like?
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,757
    Mr Goo wrote:
    This thread started off quite well has sadly deviated and descended into an economics and political argument witha side of discussion.

    The question is WHY DON'T THE BRITISH PUBLIC STAND UP FOR WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT AND DEMONSTRATE AND MARCH EN MASS FOR INJUSTICE ? 1% PAY CAP FOR PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS AT THIS EXTENDED LENGTH IS A GROSS INJUSTICE. WHY ARE WE AS A NATION SO SUBSERVIENT AND COW TOWED BY THOSE IN POWER?

    So your wife works in the NHS and you think she deserves a payrise to increase your household income. Separately you can't be ar5ed to work harder and earn more money.

    and then you wonder why people can't be ar5ed to go on a march so others can increase their household income

    Ooooo. That's barbed.
    So you think it fair that public sector workers havent even had a cost of living rise in last half dozen plus years. Yet MP's (public employees) have been getting 6 to 7 %. So just about what's wrong with this country.

    And I'll add this. No MD/Director or boss should earn more than 3 to 4 times that of their lowest paid employee.

    I'm not a commie or socialist I believe in free market but I believe that the wealth should be spread for all to benefit.

    And as for me not being arsed to work harder. I have done management work, looking after staff and found that it wasn't for me. Does that make me a slacker then.? Must remember that when I get up at 4 in the morning for a business trip to Penzance.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
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