Maybe we are not doomed after all
Comments
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No I don't blame the CCC. Boring and realistic isn't very appealing to journalists. It's also not the job of public bodies to have spin departments either.Jezyboy said:
Do the CCC bear any responsibility (in your mind) for that?TheBigBean said:
The important thing to realise is that the required action has been published in detail. That campaigners and journalists seem to ignore this shouldn't be used as evidence to the contrary.pinno said:
This, ad nauseum.TheBigBean said:...much like many observers' in that it demands action without really stating what that action is.
It seems that they aren't great at getting the word out to campaigners and journos, and given they only rank the current government efforts as a 4/10, it seems like they aren't able to successfully shape govt policy.
I did a brief bit of homework, and scanned through the CCC report on aviation. It's reassuringly realistic in places, but I can see why it doesn't impress some.
I have said before that I don't understand many of the campaigners and their approaches.
The CCC was created by legislation, so at some point the government will be breaking the law if it ignores them and falls too far behind.
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What would the penalty be for individuals who are guilty of breaking that law?TheBigBean said:
The CCC was created by legislation, so at some point the government will be breaking the law if it ignores them and falls too far behind.0 -
kingstongraham said:
What would the penalty be for individuals who are guilty of breaking that law?TheBigBean said:
The CCC was created by legislation, so at some point the government will be breaking the law if it ignores them and falls too far behind.
No idea. Clearly a government could just repeal the legislation if it wanted, but no idea what happens if it ignores it.kingstongraham said:
What would the penalty be for individuals who are guilty of breaking that law?TheBigBean said:
The CCC was created by legislation, so at some point the government will be breaking the law if it ignores them and falls too far behind.
In any case, the point is that an independent body reports to parliament that something, which could be in any department, needs to change. It makes it much easier for the government to accept this position as a legal duty.
The government is behind in many areas, but the legislation has still been reasonably successful. Without it, we wouldn't know that the government was failing in some areas.
Also, if you look at some areas of failure such as tree planting. They're really not easy due to nimbyism, so the government gets regular reminders that it needs to do more. This is why I think Extinction Rebellion would have been much better to plant protest trees everywhere in order to raise awareness rather than campaigning for an independent body despite one existing since 2008.0 -
The lack of international coordination for the vaccine distribution is not anywhere near enough.TheBigBean said:
Only if you are overwhelming negative about things. For example, the creation and deployment of the AZ vaccine at cost is a pretty amazing achievement that is helping to solve the problem worldwide.rick_chasey said:
The lack of international cohesion regarding corona does not bode well for what is a much harder nut to crack re climate change.Jezyboy said:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/30/climate-denial-delay-inaction-british-government
Ed Milliband agreeing with the last big of BigBean's post.
The current price of solar panels and wind turbines now means that they can be the cheapest form of generation. Things like this push the rest of the world into adopting renewable energy for economic reasons. As other technologies develop, this will happen in other areas. There will also, no doubt, be the stick approach with a carbon border tax.
Ed Miliband's piece is much like many observers' in that it demands action without really stating what that action is.
The benefits for the rich nations bankrolling vaccines for the rest of the world and sending their excess (and some nations have bought vastly more than they need) are unquestionable - the ROI is enormous - and yet they aren’t really doing it.0 -
It's the technical/political/economic challenge of the century. It shouldn't be boring surely?TheBigBean said:
No I don't blame the CCC. Boring and realistic isn't very appealing to journalists. It's also not the job of public bodies to have spin departments either.Jezyboy said:
Do the CCC bear any responsibility (in your mind) for that?TheBigBean said:
The important thing to realise is that the required action has been published in detail. That campaigners and journalists seem to ignore this shouldn't be used as evidence to the contrary.pinno said:
This, ad nauseum.TheBigBean said:...much like many observers' in that it demands action without really stating what that action is.
It seems that they aren't great at getting the word out to campaigners and journos, and given they only rank the current government efforts as a 4/10, it seems like they aren't able to successfully shape govt policy.
I did a brief bit of homework, and scanned through the CCC report on aviation. It's reassuringly realistic in places, but I can see why it doesn't impress some.
I have said before that I don't understand many of the campaigners and their approaches.
The CCC was created by legislation, so at some point the government will be breaking the law if it ignores them and falls too far behind.
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You could say the same about pensions which are also considered very boring.Jezyboy said:
It's the technical/political/economic challenge of the century. It shouldn't be boring surely?TheBigBean said:
No I don't blame the CCC. Boring and realistic isn't very appealing to journalists. It's also not the job of public bodies to have spin departments either.Jezyboy said:
Do the CCC bear any responsibility (in your mind) for that?TheBigBean said:
The important thing to realise is that the required action has been published in detail. That campaigners and journalists seem to ignore this shouldn't be used as evidence to the contrary.pinno said:
This, ad nauseum.TheBigBean said:...much like many observers' in that it demands action without really stating what that action is.
It seems that they aren't great at getting the word out to campaigners and journos, and given they only rank the current government efforts as a 4/10, it seems like they aren't able to successfully shape govt policy.
I did a brief bit of homework, and scanned through the CCC report on aviation. It's reassuringly realistic in places, but I can see why it doesn't impress some.
I have said before that I don't understand many of the campaigners and their approaches.
The CCC was created by legislation, so at some point the government will be breaking the law if it ignores them and falls too far behind.0 -
Good point, well made.TheBigBean said:This is why I think Extinction Rebellion would have been much better to plant protest trees everywhere in order to raise awareness rather than campaigning for an independent body despite one existing since 2008.
If ER were to plough a lot of their energy into more constructive campaigns and actions, they would gain far more respect,
I joined and eventually ran a recycling lobby group - it's primary focus was to put pressure on our beloved council to recycle more. Set up originally in 2002.
We established a niche market in certain materials which we then went on to recycle region wide.
By doing this, not only were we, in the loop but we gained first hand experience of the the benefits of recycling, it's problems, it's potential.
As a result, we had the continued air of publicity, support from various political figures and the public. Without that hands on operation, we would not have been a credible lever.
Suffice to say, the council did (were forced) to go down the SAS (separation at source) route. The extent of the influence of our activities, we will never know but I would like to think that we may have been that straw that broke the Camels back.
For the initial 6 years of operation, we were under their umbrella - we were given a council web page, printed decals for collection banks commensurate with council logo's, pamphlets, flyers were printed on our behalf. As time went on, our efforts underlined their inconsistencies and lack of movement until we were told (when they deployed their now defunct, derelict and obsolete £27m Eco deco system failure), to 'form an exit strategy'. This was 2010. We continued for the next 6 years collecting 3 National gold star awards for recycling on the way and for the best part of that time, we were unique as we were self sustainable.
We were a thorn in the councils side.
To come full circle, lobby and campaign groups need the practical knowledge, experience and understanding of the multiple obstacles required to achieve certain goals.
Without which, they haven't got a clue.
[Sorry to drag on] but it seems to be a very British thing - everything is someone else's responsibility,
seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
I don't see pensions having the same level of interesting science/tech or being the same level of existential threat though.TheBigBean said:
You could say the same about pensions which are also considered very boring.Jezyboy said:
It's the technical/political/economic challenge of the century. It shouldn't be boring surely?TheBigBean said:
No I don't blame the CCC. Boring and realistic isn't very appealing to journalists. It's also not the job of public bodies to have spin departments either.Jezyboy said:
Do the CCC bear any responsibility (in your mind) for that?TheBigBean said:
The important thing to realise is that the required action has been published in detail. That campaigners and journalists seem to ignore this shouldn't be used as evidence to the contrary.pinno said:
This, ad nauseum.TheBigBean said:...much like many observers' in that it demands action without really stating what that action is.
It seems that they aren't great at getting the word out to campaigners and journos, and given they only rank the current government efforts as a 4/10, it seems like they aren't able to successfully shape govt policy.
I did a brief bit of homework, and scanned through the CCC report on aviation. It's reassuringly realistic in places, but I can see why it doesn't impress some.
I have said before that I don't understand many of the campaigners and their approaches.
The CCC was created by legislation, so at some point the government will be breaking the law if it ignores them and falls too far behind.
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https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/02/diesel-car-suits-me-better-than-electric-says-pms-climate-spokesperson
This doesn't help.
The government's own climate spokesperson seems to be about 5 years behind times when it comes to the capability of electric cars.
Doesn't even know the range or that you can do a rapid charge in 20 mins for some models.0 -
I think most would struggle with the distance especially if motorway driving was involved. That's the difficult thing about advocating for carbon reduction it is not hard to find something hypocritical in everyone.elbowloh said:https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/02/diesel-car-suits-me-better-than-electric-says-pms-climate-spokesperson
This doesn't help.
The government's own climate spokesperson seems to be about 5 years behind times when it comes to the capability of electric cars.
Doesn't even know the range or that you can do a rapid charge in 20 mins for some models.
A hydrogen powered car would be better for her, but the infrastructure doesn't exist and there are only two expensive cars.
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I'm sure she could afford a Tesla and get the range she requires.TheBigBean said:
I think most would struggle with the distance especially if motorway driving was involved. That's the difficult thing about advocating for carbon reduction it is not hard to find something hypocritical in everyone.elbowloh said:https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/02/diesel-car-suits-me-better-than-electric-says-pms-climate-spokesperson
This doesn't help.
The government's own climate spokesperson seems to be about 5 years behind times when it comes to the capability of electric cars.
Doesn't even know the range or that you can do a rapid charge in 20 mins for some models.
A hydrogen powered car would be better for her, but the infrastructure doesn't exist and there are only two expensive cars.
A single charge would go from London the Glasgow just about and if she did a 20minute quick charge whilst stopping for coffee, she could get to Inverness.0 -
I doubt she would get 250 miles out of a Tesla on a motorway in cold weather, and even if she could, she's not going to chance it and end up getting stuck somewhere.elbowloh said:
I'm sure she could afford a Tesla and get the range she requires.TheBigBean said:
I think most would struggle with the distance especially if motorway driving was involved. That's the difficult thing about advocating for carbon reduction it is not hard to find something hypocritical in everyone.elbowloh said:https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/02/diesel-car-suits-me-better-than-electric-says-pms-climate-spokesperson
This doesn't help.
The government's own climate spokesperson seems to be about 5 years behind times when it comes to the capability of electric cars.
Doesn't even know the range or that you can do a rapid charge in 20 mins for some models.
A hydrogen powered car would be better for her, but the infrastructure doesn't exist and there are only two expensive cars.
A single charge would go from London the Glasgow just about and if she did a 20minute quick charge whilst stopping for coffee, she could get to Inverness.0 -
The long range models are quoted as being 400miles plus and a 15 minute super quick charge can extend the range by 200 miles...apparently.TheBigBean said:
I doubt she would get 250 miles out of a Tesla on a motorway in cold weather, and even if she could, she's not going to chance it and end up getting stuck somewhere.elbowloh said:
I'm sure she could afford a Tesla and get the range she requires.TheBigBean said:
I think most would struggle with the distance especially if motorway driving was involved. That's the difficult thing about advocating for carbon reduction it is not hard to find something hypocritical in everyone.elbowloh said:https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/02/diesel-car-suits-me-better-than-electric-says-pms-climate-spokesperson
This doesn't help.
The government's own climate spokesperson seems to be about 5 years behind times when it comes to the capability of electric cars.
Doesn't even know the range or that you can do a rapid charge in 20 mins for some models.
A hydrogen powered car would be better for her, but the infrastructure doesn't exist and there are only two expensive cars.
A single charge would go from London the Glasgow just about and if she did a 20minute quick charge whilst stopping for coffee, she could get to Inverness.
real world tests show a model 3 will do 295 miles. So if she did two 20 minute coffee stops over a 6 or 7 hour drive (she should probably have one longer stop for a proper rest), she should easily make the 415 miles.0 -
I do wonder if there needs to be some encouragement that people should buy cars based on the vast majority of journeys they use them for, rather than buying them based on the requirements of 1% of journeys that they will be used for.TheBigBean said:
I think most would struggle with the distance especially if motorway driving was involved. That's the difficult thing about advocating for carbon reduction it is not hard to find something hypocritical in everyone.elbowloh said:https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/02/diesel-car-suits-me-better-than-electric-says-pms-climate-spokesperson
This doesn't help.
The government's own climate spokesperson seems to be about 5 years behind times when it comes to the capability of electric cars.
Doesn't even know the range or that you can do a rapid charge in 20 mins for some models.
A hydrogen powered car would be better for her, but the infrastructure doesn't exist and there are only two expensive cars.
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Model 3 ranges. It won't make it without charging on a motorway in cold weather. Yes, she could stop for a charge, but then she has to find a working available charger. I understand why she would hesitate if she wants to do this regularly.
City - Cold Weather 270 mi
Highway - Cold Weather 205 mi
Combined - Cold Weather 235 mi
City - Mild Weather 410 mi
Highway - Mild Weather 265 mi
Combined - Mild Weather 330 mi
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If you google, there are a few car reviews where they have done london to scotland pretty easily using the cars own systems to tell them where to stop and charge. Someone even did over 1000 miles to Aviemore and back. I'm sure she doesn't do it that regularly.TheBigBean said:Model 3 ranges. It won't make it without charging on a motorway in cold weather. Yes, she could stop for a charge, but then she has to find a working available charger. I understand why she would hesitate if she wants to do this regularly.
City - Cold Weather 270 mi
Highway - Cold Weather 205 mi
Combined - Cold Weather 235 mi
City - Mild Weather 410 mi
Highway - Mild Weather 265 mi
Combined - Mild Weather 330 mi
Surely you're not suggesting she drives to scotland without any rest stops?
There are tesla charging stations at pretty much every motorway service station.0 -
She could tow a trailer with a generator on, with it running she could charge the car to get some more miles.0 -
This is all a bit by the by though isn't it? The main issue is that she's the climate spokesperson and is crying off electric cars because a) she seems ignorant of their capabilities and b) even if she's correct, she's not getting one because it might take a little bit more effort to drive to Scotland on occasion.
She needs to be able to convince people to make change and that change might be a bit inconvenient for people!1 -
I think we're at the stage where families with multiple cars would definitely be better off having an electric car as the second and third cars. I understand the concerns from people for their first cars though. With time, the access to charging will hopefully assuage people's fears. It will be gradual process of acceptance.Jezyboy said:
I do wonder if there needs to be some encouragement that people should buy cars based on the vast majority of journeys they use them for, rather than buying them based on the requirements of 1% of journeys that they will be used for.TheBigBean said:
I think most would struggle with the distance especially if motorway driving was involved. That's the difficult thing about advocating for carbon reduction it is not hard to find something hypocritical in everyone.elbowloh said:https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/02/diesel-car-suits-me-better-than-electric-says-pms-climate-spokesperson
This doesn't help.
The government's own climate spokesperson seems to be about 5 years behind times when it comes to the capability of electric cars.
Doesn't even know the range or that you can do a rapid charge in 20 mins for some models.
A hydrogen powered car would be better for her, but the infrastructure doesn't exist and there are only two expensive cars.
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I think if you make the right (or perhaps wrong) set of assumptions they can stack up pretty similarly. Basically if you put an old inefficient coal fired power station up, assume lots of transmission losses and then compare it with a super modern efficient engine being driven at its most effective point.rick_chasey said:How much more energy efficient are electric cars over petrol cars?
At least that's my recollection from IC engines lectures 8 years ago.
Where the big benefit comes is that with the right grid, you aren't burning anything to get the electricity.0 -
Regen braking makes a good difference, also there is much less consequential wear on the brakes, plus brushless electric motors are much more reliable than combustion engines, which again require maintenance.0
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdaTsp1R9qI
This really impressed me.0 -
I would think things have changed rather a lot in 8 yearsJezyboy said:
I think if you make the right (or perhaps wrong) set of assumptions they can stack up pretty similarly. Basically if you put an old inefficient coal fired power station up, assume lots of transmission losses and then compare it with a super modern efficient engine being driven at its most effective point.rick_chasey said:How much more energy efficient are electric cars over petrol cars?
At least that's my recollection from IC engines lectures 8 years ago.
Where the big benefit comes is that with the right grid, you aren't burning anything to get the electricity.0 -
The Sunseeker Duo is the most advanced solar powered airplane in the world. It is Solar Flightʼs third solar powered airplane. It has a wingspan of 22 meters; an empty weight of 280 kg and 1510 solar cells with 23% efficiency. The airplane is able to cruise directly on solar power with two people on board. The structure must be incredibly light and aerodynamically efficient to perform well with only the power from integrated solar arrays. It uses a battery pack located in the fuselage to store energy harvested from the solar cells which line its wings and tail surfaces.https://www.solar-flight.com/sunseeker-duo/
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You would need to define what you mean. You can measure the efficiency of solar panels, for example, against the amount of sun hitting them. You could then look at transmission losses, battery losses and car losses, but it would be an exercise in complete irrelevance as there is nothing to compare against.rick_chasey said:How much more energy efficient are electric cars over petrol cars?
A more meaningful point is that there are greater losses in hydrogen fuelled cars than battery powered cars when both the electric sources are the same. The losses in the hydrogen one are quite a bit worse. Something like double from memory. But again if that hydrogen was created in Australian desert is it a relevant comparison? Probably not.
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Is energy efficiency the biggest issue or overall carbon impact?rick_chasey said:How much more energy efficient are electric cars over petrol cars?
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I get the carbon emissions of electric cars hangs on the makeup of the grid it is drawing electricity from.TheBigBean said:
You would need to define what you mean. You can measure the efficiency of solar panels, for example, against the amount of sun hitting them. You could then look at transmission losses, battery losses and car losses, but it would be an exercise in complete irrelevance as there is nothing to compare against.rick_chasey said:How much more energy efficient are electric cars over petrol cars?
A more meaningful point is that there are greater losses in hydrogen fuelled cars than battery powered cars when both the electric sources are the same. The losses in the hydrogen one are quite a bit worse. Something like double from memory. But again if that hydrogen was created in Australian desert is it a relevant comparison? Probably not.
I was more asking if for an average journey with an average driver if the energy used was more or less or roughly the same.
If it’s not then all you are really doing is making the makeup of the electric grid more important - so in China currently your electric car won’t be very green.0 -
You mean if the grid was entirely coal powered versus a car using petrol which would be better. Google tells me the former, but not by much.rick_chasey said:
I get the carbon emissions of electric cars hangs on the makeup of the grid it is drawing electricity from.TheBigBean said:
You would need to define what you mean. You can measure the efficiency of solar panels, for example, against the amount of sun hitting them. You could then look at transmission losses, battery losses and car losses, but it would be an exercise in complete irrelevance as there is nothing to compare against.rick_chasey said:How much more energy efficient are electric cars over petrol cars?
A more meaningful point is that there are greater losses in hydrogen fuelled cars than battery powered cars when both the electric sources are the same. The losses in the hydrogen one are quite a bit worse. Something like double from memory. But again if that hydrogen was created in Australian desert is it a relevant comparison? Probably not.
I was more asking if for an average journey with an average driver if the energy used was more or less or roughly the same.
If it’s not then all you are really doing is making the makeup of the electric grid more important - so in China currently your electric car won’t be very green.
Note that even China has a decent chunk of renewables.0 -
The basic thermodynamics haven't, so I would guess not...bearing in mind it's about making an optimistic set of assumptions.elbowloh said:
I would think things have changed rather a lot in 8 yearsJezyboy said:
I think if you make the right (or perhaps wrong) set of assumptions they can stack up pretty similarly. Basically if you put an old inefficient coal fired power station up, assume lots of transmission losses and then compare it with a super modern efficient engine being driven at its most effective point.rick_chasey said:How much more energy efficient are electric cars over petrol cars?
At least that's my recollection from IC engines lectures 8 years ago.
Where the big benefit comes is that with the right grid, you aren't burning anything to get the electricity.
In extremely simple terms if you're method of power generation is to make some working fluid hot, then use that hot fluid to spin something, you are limited in efficiency by your hot temperature and your cold temperature. For a power station and a car engine these limits of efficiency are quite similar.
If we take a modern combined cycle gas turbine, I think you can get 60+% efficiency, if we take an F1 engine, you can get 50+%. If you take away transmission and charging losses, you can get quite close.
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