London Bridge Incident
Comments
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rjsterry wrote:
Well apart from people fire-bombing mosques, and all the lower level stuff like hurling abuse at any one they see who looks like they might be Muslim, including one of the surgeons who treated the victims of the Manchester bombing. No, nothing to see here.nickice wrote:My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.
I'm sure the Met and MI5's counter-terrorism officers will be glad to know that they've been 'tolerating' Islamism for the last 16 years or so.
Do you honestly think that there has been a major backlash against Muslims. There will always be some idiots who shout abuse etc. but the backlash is so minimal compared to any other period in history when the UK has been at war or been subject to terror attacks.
By the way, tolerating Islamism is exactly what we do as it's not illegal to be an Islamist. Most Islamists are non violent. It's only when somebody becomes a jihadist that they're breaking the law. Unfortunately Islamists and Jihadists share the same ideas about what kind of society they'd like to live in but disagree on the methods used to get there.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:nickice wrote:
Fairly sure you can't publish child porn.
You're on the wrong side of the argument here. Dig the trench all you want.
You need to treat the terrorists like they're those kids who shoot up their schools in the US.
Nutters. That's what they are.
I can find examples of horrible atrocities committed in the name of more or less every religion. The defining factor is the bloodlust, not the religion.
To focus on the faith bit, and to ignore the nutter bit, is to be wilfully sowing hatred, which is ultimately where this all stems from.
You're comparing child porn where a child has been sexually abused to drawings (any drawing remember) of a man who lived in the 7th century that we're not even sure existed? I knew you were really ignorant on this matter but that's got to be up there with your ISIS/IRA comparison from last time (remember that when you went through my posting history in desperation then called me a bigot when you had no other arguments)
And at no point have I denied that other religions are or have been problematic. And these people are not nutters (at least no more than any other religious person). They completely believe what they say and think they're going straight to heaven. I'm not going to waste time with you on this though as I remember from last time that you'll never be persuaded that beliefs can have consequences.0 -
nickice wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:nickice wrote:
Fairly sure you can't publish child porn.
You're on the wrong side of the argument here. Dig the trench all you want.
You need to treat the terrorists like they're those kids who shoot up their schools in the US.
Nutters. That's what they are.
I can find examples of horrible atrocities committed in the name of more or less every religion. The defining factor is the bloodlust, not the religion.
To focus on the faith bit, and to ignore the nutter bit, is to be wilfully sowing hatred, which is ultimately where this all stems from.
You're comparing child porn where a child has been sexually abused to drawings (any drawing remember) of a man who lived in the 7th century that we're not even sure existed? I knew you were really ignorant on this matter but that's got to be up there with your ISIS/IRA comparison from last time (remember that when you went through my posting history in desperation then called me a bigot when you had no other arguments)
And at no point have I denied that other religions are or have been problematic. And these people are not nutters (at least no more than any other religious person). They completely believe what they say and think they're going straight to heaven. I'm not going to waste time with you on this though as I remember from last time that you'll never be persuaded that beliefs can have consequences.
No, i'm not comparing it. You didn't read it properly did you? You said 'no idea should be above criticism' in relation to publishing. That's clearly bollocks.
To say that a religious person is no more a nutter than someone who wants to kill a bunch of strangers at the expense of their own life is to show how ridiculous the position is you've dug yourself into here.
People seek religion to make sense of their lives, not the other way around.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:nickice wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:nickice wrote:
Fairly sure you can't publish child porn.
You're on the wrong side of the argument here. Dig the trench all you want.
You need to treat the terrorists like they're those kids who shoot up their schools in the US.
Nutters. That's what they are.
I can find examples of horrible atrocities committed in the name of more or less every religion. The defining factor is the bloodlust, not the religion.
To focus on the faith bit, and to ignore the nutter bit, is to be wilfully sowing hatred, which is ultimately where this all stems from.
You're comparing child porn where a child has been sexually abused to drawings (any drawing remember) of a man who lived in the 7th century that we're not even sure existed? I knew you were really ignorant on this matter but that's got to be up there with your ISIS/IRA comparison from last time (remember that when you went through my posting history in desperation then called me a bigot when you had no other arguments)
And at no point have I denied that other religions are or have been problematic. And these people are not nutters (at least no more than any other religious person). They completely believe what they say and think they're going straight to heaven. I'm not going to waste time with you on this though as I remember from last time that you'll never be persuaded that beliefs can have consequences.
No, i'm not comparing it. You didn't read it properly did you? You said 'no idea should be above criticism' in relation to publishing. That's clearly ****.
To say that a religious person is no more a nutter than someone who wants to kill a bunch of strangers at the expense of their own life is to show how ridiculous the position is you've dug yourself into here.
People seek religion to make sense of their lives, not the other way around.
I absolutely read it. And, if you knew your stuff, which you don't, you'd know I was talking about the idea of religion. There'd have to be a good reason to ban the publishing of anything and 'disrespecting religion' is not one of them.
As for the rest of your post, as I've repeated, these people are not nutters. I think it's pretty crazy to believe in any religion and if someone tells you that you're going to heaven and that god wants you to kill infidels then you could potentially do it. Adam Deen, a former Islamic extremist said as much. Objectively, praying five times a day to an imaginary god is totally irrational but millions of Muslims do it (in fact praying at all is irrational). I bet you wouldn't dare call them nutters but as soon as someone takes it to the extreme (remember they think they're doing an act of good not evil) they're a nutter and it's nothing to do with religion. I suggest you look at interviews with Taliban members after the school massacre in Pakistan and it might open your eyes a bit.0 -
nickice wrote:
No, asking that no media outlets ever show drawings of Mohammed is extreme. It's got nothing to do with disrespecting individuals. No idea should be above criticism.
'Asking' for anything is not extreme, it's perfectly reasonable. You seem to have unusual ideas about what constitutes 'extremism'.0 -
23,000 Muslims being monitored by security services and police in the UK because of their activities and associations.
Intern the lot of them now. I don't care if it upsets the Muslim community. In fact I reckon many in the Muslim community think the same.
Anything to stop innocent civilians from being killed in the name of a warped version of religion. Anything to stop young children from being blown up.
What alternative is there? Nothing else is working.Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.0 -
I never said you said muslims were not human.nickice wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
Are you serious?nickice wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
When those brainwashed idiots drove that van into the victims they didn't really know who they were killing, christian, jew,hindu,sikh, MUSLIM, could have been anyone...........What they really did was kill fellow human beings, human beings!nickice wrote:My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.
How does your reply explain why you have as much sympathy with the Muslim community as the families of the victims?
They're human beings, muslims whether you like it or not are human beings, and they have as much truck with psychopaths as you or I.
Or are you saying all deluded idiots a muslims or all muslims are deluded idiots?
Ian Huntley is a child killer, does that make you and I guilty, 'cos he happens to be white and christian?
You've set up so many strawmen here that I don't know where to start so I'll have to make a list-
1) At no point have I said Muslims aren't human beings.
2) You still haven't explained why you have the same level of sympathy for the Muslim community as you do for the families of the victims. Given that the families are suffering far more than the Muslim community, don't you think your statement was odd?
3) I think anyone who takes religion seriously is suffering from some sort of delusion (at least in that part of their lives) but I'd say that about any follower of any religion. I think this is an entirely uncontroversial statement given that I've never seen a religion that would stand up to the most cursory scrutiny.
4) Right see the Ian Huntley (though usually it's the Jo Cox murder used in this analogy) thing- being white is not an ideology. And Ian Huntley did not claim to be acting in the name of Christianity or use bible verses to justify his action (this is the same reason why the ISIS/IRA comparison is so fallacious). If we were talking about Christian Fundamentalist attacks then, yes, I'd blame Christianity if the attackers were using a plausible interpretation of the Bible. Note that blaming Islam is not the same as blaming all Muslims as there are several different interpretations of the Koran and the Hadith and I'm well aware that many Muslims are about as religious as most Christians.
5) Finally, it would be a mistake to think that all these attacks are carried out by psychopaths. These people actually believe they're doing God's work. It's crazy I know but I think in the West that there's a refusal to believe that these guys actually believe what they say.
I both families of the victims and the larger muslim community are harmed by such events, admitedly anyone who has lost family will obviously be more directly affected, But muslims, like catholics in the irish troubles will feel threatened.
Personally I don't give a flying fish about religion so I won't defend anyone/thing on religious background.
The Huntley analogy was straight forward he is a white male (christian) who knows, who carried out a awful crime, don't let him tar all white British men as the same; as seems to be the case whenever there is a terrorist outrage carried out (deludedly) in the name of islam.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Mr Goo wrote:23,000 Muslims being monitored by security services and police in the UK because of their activities and associations.
Intern the lot of them now. I don't care if it upsets the Muslim community. In fact I reckon many in the Muslim community think the same.
Anything to stop innocent civilians from being killed in the name of a warped version of religion. Anything to stop young children from being blown up.
What alternative is there? Nothing else is working.
Alright Hitler, calm down.
How come you're not up in arms about the 1,700 who die in traffic accidents each year?0 -
Mr Goo wrote:23,000 Muslims being monitored by security services and police in the UK because of their activities and associations.
Intern the lot of them now. I don't care if it upsets the Muslim community. In fact I reckon many in the Muslim community think the same.
Anything to stop innocent civilians from being killed in the name of a warped version of religion. Anything to stop young children from being blown up.
What alternative is there? Nothing else is working.
While you're at it you can intern every Christian male for the murder of Jo Cox. :roll:0 -
Mr Goo wrote:23,000 Muslims being monitored by security services and police in the UK because of their activities and associations.
Intern the lot of them now.
Any suggestions as to where they could be interned? The biggest prison in the UK is Wandsworth, and that only has around 1800 places - most of which are already occupied, I would imagine.
(see my 'V for Vendetta' reference earlier)0 -
Nickice, if you can't distinguish between people who believe in organises religion and people who want to murder innocent civilians then you're either an idiot or you're willfully creating divides in order to persecute.
Which is it?0 -
mmmm Internment. It polarised communities in Northern Ireland and was a self defeating tactic that hasn't been used since.
There really are some over simplistic minds on here with little comprehension or understanding of the complexities of the situation we face.“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
Lay off the sherry Goo, it's a Sunday night after all.0
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Slowmart wrote:mmmm Internment. It polarised communities in Northern Ireland and was a self defeating tactic that hasn't been used since.
There really are some over simplistic minds on here with little comprehension or understanding of the complexities of the situation we face.
Not to mention the practicalities involved. The existing prison population probably could not cope with such a large influx of prisoners - and distributing them around the UK's prisons (even if they could cope with the influx) would probably be a bad idea anyway. Probably better to keep them all in one place. Except there is nowhere in existence in the UK that can accommodate 23,000 individuals at once, let alone with any form of security.
Assume a ratio of 5 staff to 100 prisoners (more or less the ratio in most prisons) and you need an additional 230 prison/police/military staff (significantly more if you accept that shifts/rotas will be necessary for 24/7), at a time when Theresa May has cut the numbers in all three services. Finally, unless you plan on executing them all summarily, then you also need to feed/water them. Not quite as simple as just shouting 'interment!!'...0 -
Mr Goo wrote:23,000 Muslims being monitored by security services and police in the UK because of their activities and associations.
Intern the lot of them now. I don't care if it upsets the Muslim community. In fact I reckon many in the Muslim community think the same.
Anything to stop innocent civilians from being killed in the name of a warped version of religion. Anything to stop young children from being blown up.
What alternative is there? Nothing else is working.
Oh yeah. Cos interning people won't make people pissed off at all. 23000 being monitored. Maybe 10% are serious. Probably a massive over estimate there or else we'd be getting attacks working far more than they are.
But separate the innocent from their families and you'll definitely convert a lot of them to a more extreme viewpoint.
Maybe more police on the ground. Able to chat to communities. Get intelligence from the streets. Spot unusual activity.
It's a tricky situation but your suggestion plays right into their hands.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Nickice, if you can't distinguish between people who believe in organises religion and people who want to murder innocent civilians then you're either an idiot or you're willfully creating divides in order to persecute.
Which is it?
Martyrdom and Jihad are central tenets of Islam. Don't be surprised when people take unpalatable parts of scriptures seriously. Instead of making more allegations of bigotry why don't you do some research on this matter? These people didn't see them as civilians, they saw them as infidels and therefore an enemy. Like I said, if you actually study this area you'll see that their behaviour is entirely rational when you consider what they believe.
Do you know when Christians are anti abortion or anti-stem cell research? Why do you think that is? Do you know when thousands of Muslims tried to incite the murder of Salmon Rushdie or marched on Downing Street to demand that depicting Mohammed be made illegal? Why was that? Why do some Christians believe they're actually eating the body of Christ? Why do Muslims pray five times a day? All for religious reasons and all, objectively, irrational. But when you consider their faith, these actions were entirely rational. You can't just dismiss jihadists as nutters as if there isn't so many other things religious people do that is totally crazy. Luckily, ISIS have a literal interpretation of Islam that isn't followed by the majority but that doesn't mean Islam is not to blame. By the way, Muhammed behaved in a very similar way to ISIS. If you think that's controversial, do some research.0 -
Slowmart wrote:mmmm Internment. It polarised communities in Northern Ireland and was a self defeating tactic that hasn't been used since.
There really are some over simplistic minds on here with little comprehension or understanding of the complexities of the situation we face.
I have no opinion on whether internment should be introduced but I believe in Northern Ireland it was based on very bad intelligence. It had been done before that during WW2 with little postwar ill feeling.0 -
Imposter wrote:Slowmart wrote:mmmm Internment. It polarised communities in Northern Ireland and was a self defeating tactic that hasn't been used since.
There really are some over simplistic minds on here with little comprehension or understanding of the complexities of the situation we face.
Not to mention the practicalities involved. The existing prison population probably could not cope with such a large influx of prisoners - and distributing them around the UK's prisons (even if they could cope with the influx) would probably be a bad idea anyway. Probably better to keep them all in one place. Except there is nowhere in existence in the UK that can accommodate 23,000 individuals at once, let alone with any form of security.
Assume a ratio of 5 staff to 100 prisoners (more or less the ratio in most prisons) and you need an additional 230 prison/police/military staff (significantly more if you accept that shifts/rotas will be necessary for 24/7), at a time when Theresa May has cut the numbers in all three services. Finally, unless you plan on executing them all summarily, then you also need to feed/water them. Not quite as simple as just shouting 'interment!!'...
If it were only about practicalities (which it isn't) then you're forgetting the manpower needed to actually watch these people when they're on the loose. The reason the security services are not responding to every tip off is because there are too many extremists and not enough agents. People forget the massive military operations that was needed for many years in Northern Ireland.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Mr Goo wrote:23,000 Muslims being monitored by security services and police in the UK because of their activities and associations.
Intern the lot of them now. I don't care if it upsets the Muslim community. In fact I reckon many in the Muslim community think the same.
Anything to stop innocent civilians from being killed in the name of a warped version of religion. Anything to stop young children from being blown up.
What alternative is there? Nothing else is working.
While you're at it you can intern every Christian male for the murder of Jo Cox. :roll:
You're trying to compare apples with pears Mr Rick
If Christians were blowing themselves up at concerts and mowing down people on bridged and there were 23000 white male fundemental Christians being monitored as potential perpetrators. Then Yes. I'd call for their detention.
And what the f**k do RTA fatalities have to do with terrorism? I know that you're an exceptionally liberal chap and an apologist for the perpetrators of the atrocities at any turn. But if you're wife or kids were killed by a twit with a warped sense of his religion would you still just shrug you're shoulders and say "what can you do? I don't want to upset a small element of a minority community" or would you like to remove potential terrorists from the streets and stop potential further attacks and the heartache and anguish of other families.?Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.0 -
Frank the tank wrote:
I never said you said muslims were not human.nickice wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
Are you serious?nickice wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
When those brainwashed idiots drove that van into the victims they didn't really know who they were killing, christian, jew,hindu,sikh, MUSLIM, could have been anyone...........What they really did was kill fellow human beings, human beings!nickice wrote:My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.
How does your reply explain why you have as much sympathy with the Muslim community as the families of the victims?
They're human beings, muslims whether you like it or not are human beings, and they have as much truck with psychopaths as you or I.
Or are you saying all deluded idiots a muslims or all muslims are deluded idiots?
Ian Huntley is a child killer, does that make you and I guilty, 'cos he happens to be white and christian?
You've set up so many strawmen here that I don't know where to start so I'll have to make a list-
1) At no point have I said Muslims aren't human beings.
2) You still haven't explained why you have the same level of sympathy for the Muslim community as you do for the families of the victims. Given that the families are suffering far more than the Muslim community, don't you think your statement was odd?
3) I think anyone who takes religion seriously is suffering from some sort of delusion (at least in that part of their lives) but I'd say that about any follower of any religion. I think this is an entirely uncontroversial statement given that I've never seen a religion that would stand up to the most cursory scrutiny.
4) Right see the Ian Huntley (though usually it's the Jo Cox murder used in this analogy) thing- being white is not an ideology. And Ian Huntley did not claim to be acting in the name of Christianity or use bible verses to justify his action (this is the same reason why the ISIS/IRA comparison is so fallacious). If we were talking about Christian Fundamentalist attacks then, yes, I'd blame Christianity if the attackers were using a plausible interpretation of the Bible. Note that blaming Islam is not the same as blaming all Muslims as there are several different interpretations of the Koran and the Hadith and I'm well aware that many Muslims are about as religious as most Christians.
5) Finally, it would be a mistake to think that all these attacks are carried out by psychopaths. These people actually believe they're doing God's work. It's crazy I know but I think in the West that there's a refusal to believe that these guys actually believe what they say.
I both families of the victims and the larger muslim community are harmed by such events, admitedly anyone who has lost family will obviously be more directly affected, But muslims, like catholics in the irish troubles will feel threatened.
Personally I don't give a flying fish about religion so I won't defend anyone/thing on religious background.
The Huntley analogy was straight forward he is a white male (christian) who knows, who carried out a awful crime, don't let him tar all white British men as the same; as seems to be the case whenever there is a terrorist outrage carried out (deludedly) in the name of islam.
Again, being a white British man is not an ideology which is why the analogy doesn't work. the ISIS interpretation of Islam is perfectly plausible. We're just very lucky that most Muslims don't follow it.0 -
Mr Goo wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Mr Goo wrote:23,000 Muslims being monitored by security services and police in the UK because of their activities and associations.
Intern the lot of them now. I don't care if it upsets the Muslim community. In fact I reckon many in the Muslim community think the same.
Anything to stop innocent civilians from being killed in the name of a warped version of religion. Anything to stop young children from being blown up.
What alternative is there? Nothing else is working.
While you're at it you can intern every Christian male for the murder of Jo Cox. :roll:
You're trying to compare apples with pears Mr Rick
If Christians were blowing themselves up at concerts and mowing down people on bridged and there were 23000 white male fundemental Christians being monitored as potential perpetrators. Then Yes. I'd call for their detention.
And what the f**k do RTA fatalities have to do with terrorism? I know that you're an exceptionally liberal chap and an apologist for the perpetrators of the atrocities at any turn. But if you're wife or kids were killed by a twit with a warped sense of his religion would you still just shrug you're shoulders and say "what can you do? I don't want to upset a small element of a minority community" or would you like to remove potential terrorists from the streets and stop potential further attacks and the heartache and anguish of other families.?
Careful he might call you a bigot. Though to be fair, he's already called you Hitler so that particular box has been ticked.
The thing is, I could be convinced about internment ( it is possible to derogate from articles of the ECHR under certain circumstances) but I don't think we're there yet. Of course, the other alternative would be better surveillance but that would require an unrealistic number of agents.0 -
You're right it was only a little firebomb. Maybe go and speak to a few Muslims if you think a background hum of anti-Muslim activity doesn't exist.nickice wrote:rjsterry wrote:
Well apart from people fire-bombing mosques, and all the lower level stuff like hurling abuse at any one they see who looks like they might be Muslim, including one of the surgeons who treated the victims of the Manchester bombing. No, nothing to see here.nickice wrote:My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.
I'm sure the Met and MI5's counter-terrorism officers will be glad to know that they've been 'tolerating' Islamism for the last 16 years or so.
Do you honestly think that there has been a major backlash against Muslims. There will always be some idiots who shout abuse etc. but the backlash is so minimal compared to any other period in history when the UK has been at war or been subject to terror attacks.
By the way, tolerating Islamism is exactly what we do as it's not illegal to be an Islamist. Most Islamists are non violent. It's only when somebody becomes a jihadist that they're breaking the law. Unfortunately Islamists and Jihadists share the same ideas about what kind of society they'd like to live in but disagree on the methods used to get there.
And yes, ideas are not illegal in this country, however repulsive you or I might find them; only actions. That's a fairly basic tenet of a free country.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I think the point with RTAs is that, as a society we'll trade benefits with risks. We'll trade the however many lives are lost on the roads for the convenience of individual travel. If it weren't convenient, we'd ban cars instantly as crazy dangerous things. The same should go for terrorism. There should be a point at which we trade lives for freedom and rights of the rest of us - if we were to look at it dispassionately. I'm guessing that there are days when 7 people are killed and 48 injured on the roads (if not most days) and they don't make the papers let alone wall-to-wall coverage. We're used to it and our love of freedom to drive means that we rarely question it. To some extent, we have the same question with terrorism: at what point do we say that the costs in terms of controls on our freedoms outweighs the lives saved through those controls?
I understand the argument - I'm not sure the public would thoughROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Oh, please. We are just lucky? There's plenty of white supremacist ideology. Violent fundamentalism is common to all religions and political movements. They all despise anyone outside their particular warped view of the world.nickice wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
I never said you said muslims were not human.nickice wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
Are you serious?nickice wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
When those brainwashed idiots drove that van into the victims they didn't really know who they were killing, christian, jew,hindu,sikh, MUSLIM, could have been anyone...........What they really did was kill fellow human beings, human beings!nickice wrote:My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.
How does your reply explain why you have as much sympathy with the Muslim community as the families of the victims?
They're human beings, muslims whether you like it or not are human beings, and they have as much truck with psychopaths as you or I.
Or are you saying all deluded idiots a muslims or all muslims are deluded idiots?
Ian Huntley is a child killer, does that make you and I guilty, 'cos he happens to be white and christian?
You've set up so many strawmen here that I don't know where to start so I'll have to make a list-
1) At no point have I said Muslims aren't human beings.
2) You still haven't explained why you have the same level of sympathy for the Muslim community as you do for the families of the victims. Given that the families are suffering far more than the Muslim community, don't you think your statement was odd?
3) I think anyone who takes religion seriously is suffering from some sort of delusion (at least in that part of their lives) but I'd say that about any follower of any religion. I think this is an entirely uncontroversial statement given that I've never seen a religion that would stand up to the most cursory scrutiny.
4) Right see the Ian Huntley (though usually it's the Jo Cox murder used in this analogy) thing- being white is not an ideology. And Ian Huntley did not claim to be acting in the name of Christianity or use bible verses to justify his action (this is the same reason why the ISIS/IRA comparison is so fallacious). If we were talking about Christian Fundamentalist attacks then, yes, I'd blame Christianity if the attackers were using a plausible interpretation of the Bible. Note that blaming Islam is not the same as blaming all Muslims as there are several different interpretations of the Koran and the Hadith and I'm well aware that many Muslims are about as religious as most Christians.
5) Finally, it would be a mistake to think that all these attacks are carried out by psychopaths. These people actually believe they're doing God's work. It's crazy I know but I think in the West that there's a refusal to believe that these guys actually believe what they say.
I both families of the victims and the larger muslim community are harmed by such events, admitedly anyone who has lost family will obviously be more directly affected, But muslims, like catholics in the irish troubles will feel threatened.
Personally I don't give a flying fish about religion so I won't defend anyone/thing on religious background.
The Huntley analogy was straight forward he is a white male (christian) who knows, who carried out a awful crime, don't let him tar all white British men as the same; as seems to be the case whenever there is a terrorist outrage carried out (deludedly) in the name of islam.
Again, being a white British man is not an ideology which is why the analogy doesn't work. the ISIS interpretation of Islam is perfectly plausible. We're just very lucky that most Muslims don't follow it.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
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Also Goo, just relax.
Chances are you won't be near an attack.
Fwiw I've had a few drinks in the restaurant in question in London Bridge and I'm not getting so upset that I want to intern thousands of people.
Think you need to be a bit braver. The justification for the acts of terror is they change things. The hate they generate justifies they own nihilistic world view.
Getting all scared and demanding action is to give in. You need to be a bit better than that.
I manage, and I've been a lot closer to 2 of the last 3 attacks than you have.0 -
rjsterry wrote:
You're right it was only a little firebomb. Maybe go and speak to a few Muslims if you think a background hum of anti-Muslim activity doesn't exist.nickice wrote:rjsterry wrote:
Well apart from people fire-bombing mosques, and all the lower level stuff like hurling abuse at any one they see who looks like they might be Muslim, including one of the surgeons who treated the victims of the Manchester bombing. No, nothing to see here.nickice wrote:My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.
I'm sure the Met and MI5's counter-terrorism officers will be glad to know that they've been 'tolerating' Islamism for the last 16 years or so.
Do you honestly think that there has been a major backlash against Muslims. There will always be some idiots who shout abuse etc. but the backlash is so minimal compared to any other period in history when the UK has been at war or been subject to terror attacks.
By the way, tolerating Islamism is exactly what we do as it's not illegal to be an Islamist. Most Islamists are non violent. It's only when somebody becomes a jihadist that they're breaking the law. Unfortunately Islamists and Jihadists share the same ideas about what kind of society they'd like to live in but disagree on the methods used to get there.
And yes, ideas are not illegal in this country, however repulsive you or I might find them; only actions. That's a fairly basic tenet of a free country.
A background hum is not a major backlash. Are there a few isolated incidents (usually property crimes or hurling abuse)? Yes. Deplorable as these are, compared with history the British people have been very restrained.
As for being tolerant of Islamism, don't twist my words. You were the one who clearly didn't understand what it meant when you started talking about MI5 but their role is against violent extremism. And, yes, I'm intolerant of Islamism inasmuch as I know that Islamists want the UK to be an Islamic theocracy. The fact that it's even controversial to say that shows how ridiculous this whole issue has become.0 -
rjsterry wrote:
Oh, please. We are just lucky? There's plenty of white supremacist ideology. Violent fundamentalism is common to all religions and political movements. They all despise anyone outside their particular warped view of the world.nickice wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
I never said you said muslims were not human.nickice wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
Are you serious?nickice wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
When those brainwashed idiots drove that van into the victims they didn't really know who they were killing, christian, jew,hindu,sikh, MUSLIM, could have been anyone...........What they really did was kill fellow human beings, human beings!nickice wrote:My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.
How does your reply explain why you have as much sympathy with the Muslim community as the families of the victims?
They're human beings, muslims whether you like it or not are human beings, and they have as much truck with psychopaths as you or I.
Or are you saying all deluded idiots a muslims or all muslims are deluded idiots?
Ian Huntley is a child killer, does that make you and I guilty, 'cos he happens to be white and christian?
You've set up so many strawmen here that I don't know where to start so I'll have to make a list-
1) At no point have I said Muslims aren't human beings.
2) You still haven't explained why you have the same level of sympathy for the Muslim community as you do for the families of the victims. Given that the families are suffering far more than the Muslim community, don't you think your statement was odd?
3) I think anyone who takes religion seriously is suffering from some sort of delusion (at least in that part of their lives) but I'd say that about any follower of any religion. I think this is an entirely uncontroversial statement given that I've never seen a religion that would stand up to the most cursory scrutiny.
4) Right see the Ian Huntley (though usually it's the Jo Cox murder used in this analogy) thing- being white is not an ideology. And Ian Huntley did not claim to be acting in the name of Christianity or use bible verses to justify his action (this is the same reason why the ISIS/IRA comparison is so fallacious). If we were talking about Christian Fundamentalist attacks then, yes, I'd blame Christianity if the attackers were using a plausible interpretation of the Bible. Note that blaming Islam is not the same as blaming all Muslims as there are several different interpretations of the Koran and the Hadith and I'm well aware that many Muslims are about as religious as most Christians.
5) Finally, it would be a mistake to think that all these attacks are carried out by psychopaths. These people actually believe they're doing God's work. It's crazy I know but I think in the West that there's a refusal to believe that these guys actually believe what they say.
I both families of the victims and the larger muslim community are harmed by such events, admitedly anyone who has lost family will obviously be more directly affected, But muslims, like catholics in the irish troubles will feel threatened.
Personally I don't give a flying fish about religion so I won't defend anyone/thing on religious background.
The Huntley analogy was straight forward he is a white male (christian) who knows, who carried out a awful crime, don't let him tar all white British men as the same; as seems to be the case whenever there is a terrorist outrage carried out (deludedly) in the name of islam.
Again, being a white British man is not an ideology which is why the analogy doesn't work. the ISIS interpretation of Islam is perfectly plausible. We're just very lucky that most Muslims don't follow it.
Yes we are lucky. If you look at the history of Christianity, there was formerly a much more literal interpretation of the Bible and Christians held views that today we'd find abhorrent. I don't think people appreciate just how much effort and how long it took (and let's not forget how many people died) for us to have the modern Christianity we have today. Actually, if you look at polling data, you'll find that the Muslim community in the UK does have a number of people with what we'd think of as backward beliefs. It doesn't mean they're all going to join ISIS but ii does mean that they'd like to have some aspects of the kind of society ISIS are building.
If you're really comparing white supremacist ideology or other religions with Islam right now then you haven't really appreciated the scale of Islamic extremism.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:And athiests have a great track record when it comes to atrocities do they?
Atheism is not an ideology it's just simply lack of belief in God. Religion is not the only basis for committing evil acts but there is no interpretation of atheism to justify evil as it's not an ideology.0 -
nickice wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:And athiests have a great track record when it comes to atrocities do they?
Atheism is not an ideology it's just simply lack of belief in God. Religion is not the only basis for committing evil acts but there is no interpretation of atheism to justify evil as it's not an ideology.
Meanwhile in the real world.....
How about routine arming of Police? i mean i lived Sweden and S/Afica and its not as if you cant go up to a copper and ask for directions, they ve gun on their hip, thats all and this isnt a view i ve just got, i ve long believed its totally unfair to expect a PC to tackle certain types of crime that have become more common in recent years.
Unfortunately, had this attack taken place in Plymouth etc the response time (to stop the attack) by armed police would have been an awful lot longer than 8 mins, we d be relying on PCs with batons and tazers, look how many were killed and injured in those 8 mins!
as for internment, guaranteed to p1ss off the vast majority of Muslims and you d need to imprison not just 23k but all muslims for it to work.
the resources need to go into prevent strategies and more resource into intel (one of the attackers was reported to the hot line and seemingly no action taken) i also think we need a proper ID card scheme, for a variety of reasons, Blairs 90 day internment for suspects too, dropped after court challenges.0
