London Bridge Incident
Comments
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Aside from the death, injury and destruction the worst thing with these sorts of attacks is the complete and utter ball locks it extracts from keyboard warriors who all know how to solve the problem.0
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ben@31 wrote:The problem is Uk Muslim leaders are never seen in the media to be condemning these acts of terrorism.
http://www.mcb.org.uk/london-bridge-att ... f-britain/
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ben@31 wrote:nickice wrote:
By the way, if I were a moderate Muslim I'd be in favour of the deportation of jihadists and I don't really see why that's a controversial policy if they're not British citizens (of course most of them are). As for internment, that's more problematic, but again, if I were a moderate Muslim, I wouldn't be against it in principle as moderate Muslims must want these people out of their community too.
The problem is Uk Muslim leaders are never seen in the media to be condemning these acts of terrorism.
I'm not saying they don't, if they do it's not reported.Which doesn't help the situation.
Hopefully official condemnation from the religious leaders will prevent extremism on both sides. Preventing the hatred backlash from the right wing but also get it into the heads of vulnerable young Muslim men that this behaviour is not the answer or the Islamic stance.
I don't think the problem is lack of condemnation as it's pretty clear that most Muslim leaders condemn these attacks. I think the bigger problem is that, although actual terrorists are in the minority, a larger group of followers of Wahhabi Islam would like to see the kind of ultra-conservative society that ISIS propose. Just look at how that man on Question Time was largely ignored when he read from a leaflet given out at Didsbury mosque that was basically attacking the West and our values.0 -
Imposter wrote:ben@31 wrote:The problem is Uk Muslim leaders are never seen in the media to be condemning these acts of terrorism.
http://www.mcb.org.uk/london-bridge-att ... f-britain/
MCB (Muslim Council of Britain) Statement on Insulting Cartoons
Danish Cartoons Depicting the Prophet Muhammad Abuse Our Freedoms
The Muslim Council of Britain strongly deplores the continuing refusal of newspapers in Denmark and Norway to apologise for printing a series of sacrilegious cartoons vilifying the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
"These newspapers have printed extremely offensive caricatures of the beloved Prophet of Islam and this case, worryingly, reflects the emergence of an increasingly xenophobic tone being adopted towards Muslims in parts of the Western media. Newspaper editors must exercise due care and restraint when dealing with issues like this.
Muslims respect and love the Prophet as being dearer to them than their own families. We should not allow our valued freedoms in Europe to be abused by those deliberately seeking to provoke hatred and division between communities," said Sir Iqbal Sacranie, Secretary-General of the Muslim Council of Britain.
At the same time, the MCB regards the violent threats made against Danish and EU citizens by some groups in the Muslim world as completely unacceptable and displaying an utter disregard of basic Islamic injunctions on how to resolve disagreements and differences.
A delegation from the Muslim Council of Britain is shortly due to meet with the Danish Ambassador to the UK to convey the concerns of British Muslims.
They might not be violent but the MCB is pretty extreme0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:I passed in front of Edgbaston cricket ground this morning... just as crowds were gathering for India-Pakistan. One would think this could be a target for terrorism for a number of reasons, including the age old question of Kashmir... and yet I have not seen a single armed police officer... a few coppers in yellow vests with a van... that's it
If the terror alert is on critical, it certainly doesn't look like over here
it went back down to severe I think last week, which is what it had been for awhile before Manchester, and armed police werent turning up in that many visible numbers at every sporting event.
and I was at the Oval on Thursday,actually went through Borough Market to get there as its the link through from London Bridge alot of fans take to get to the Oval, and certainly saw a Sri Lankan fan caught up in the evacuations on the coverage last night who must have stayed in the area after the game, as no doubt others and some South Africans did.
but I dont recall on Thursday noticing many police around, certainly no more than youd expect normally for London thesedays anyway and certainly not armed ones near the ground, and yet look they responded within 8 mins, so maybe case of just because you dont see them doesnt mean they arent there and around ready to mobilise if needed, and you werent getting in the ground without every bag/item being checked,and airport style body pat downs.
the tournament director was on TMS last week describing how they have a daily "cobra" style meeting on security with the police and their security experts and were satisfied, though they obviously wouldnt go into the details of what those were, they had the appropriate measures in place even following Manchester and even if the level stayed at critical.0 -
nickice wrote:They might not be violent but the MCB is pretty extreme
I don't see anything 'extreme' in that statement. Both statements are simply defences and/or clarifications of their religious beliefs.0 -
Imposter wrote:nickice wrote:They might not be violent but the MCB is pretty extreme
I don't see anything 'extreme' in that statement. Both statements are simply defences and/or clarifications of their religious beliefs.
I seem to remember quite a bit of outrage from the CofE when the Life of Brian came out.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
meanredspider wrote:Imposter wrote:nickice wrote:They might not be violent but the MCB is pretty extreme
I don't see anything 'extreme' in that statement. Both statements are simply defences and/or clarifications of their religious beliefs.
I seem to remember quite a bit of outrage from the CofE when the Life of Brian came out.
Indeed. As I recall, CofE went apesh1t....0 -
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meanredspider wrote:Imposter wrote:nickice wrote:They might not be violent but the MCB is pretty extreme
I don't see anything 'extreme' in that statement. Both statements are simply defences and/or clarifications of their religious beliefs.
I seem to remember quite a bit of outrage from the CofE when the Life of Brian came out.
Also an extreme reaction. Still, I'd feel far more comfortable about mocking Christianity than Islam for obvious reasons.0 -
That MCB statement looks fairly extreme to me especially in the light of the threats that had been made by others. It may simply be a clarification of their religious beliefs but if so their religious beliefs are clearly out of sync with Western values.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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DeVlaeminck wrote:That MCB statement looks fairly extreme to me especially in the light of the threats that had been made by others. It may simply be a clarification of their religious beliefs but if so their religious beliefs are clearly out of sync with Western values.
Spot on. I remember reading a poll where something like 25% of British Muslims thought the cartoonists should be prosecuted. Religion ruins everything!0 -
I don't think anyone has an answer to ISIS. You can't bomb them out of existence. You'd Just recruit more. If you're not part of the cause but a British missile kills your family then your views may change.
Maybe more police around? 2000 less thank you Tories. There's not enough armed police- different regions having to send staff to help other areas. That's not sustainable.0 -
Did anyone watch the BBC 1 news special fronted by Clive Myrie on the streets of London? He introduced the programme from a cordoned off street with the odd police vehicle in the background. Then they showed a series of interviews for ten minutes or so and then back to Clive on the street. Now, right behind him was a little silent demonstration of 'Not in our Name' Muslims, totalling in numbers of about 6. All looking rather like rabbits caught in the headlights. Can't help but think that it was orchestrated by the BBC. Or am I being cynical?Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.0
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Imagine being a muslim in Britain today rather than a brainwashed fool!!!!!!Imposter wrote:ben@31 wrote:The problem is Uk Muslim leaders are never seen in the media to be condemning these acts of terrorism.
http://www.mcb.org.uk/london-bridge-att ... f-britain/
My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Mr Goo wrote:Did anyone watch the BBC 1 news special fronted by Clive Myrie on the streets of London? He introduced the programme from a cordoned off street with the odd police vehicle in the background. Then they showed a series of interviews for ten minutes or so and then back to Clive on the street. Now, right behind him was a little silent demonstration of 'Not in our Name' Muslims, totalling in numbers of about 6. All looking rather like rabbits caught in the headlights. Can't help but think that it was orchestrated by the BBC. Or am I being cynical?
You're cynical. Why would they do that ?0 -
cougie wrote:Mr Goo wrote:Did anyone watch the BBC 1 news special fronted by Clive Myrie on the streets of London? He introduced the programme from a cordoned off street with the odd police vehicle in the background. Then they showed a series of interviews for ten minutes or so and then back to Clive on the street. Now, right behind him was a little silent demonstration of 'Not in our Name' Muslims, totalling in numbers of about 6. All looking rather like rabbits caught in the headlights. Can't help but think that it was orchestrated by the BBC. Or am I being cynical?
You're cynical. Why would they do that ?
Probably paranoia rather than cynicism0 -
Frank the tank wrote:Imagine being a muslim in Britain today rather than a brainwashed fool!!!!!!
My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
You'll have to explain this one.
Why do you have as much sympathy for a group of people, as for families that have lost loved ones in a terrorist attack?0 -
My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.0 -
When those brainwashed idiots drove that van into the victims they didn't really know who they were killing, christian, jew,hindu,sikh, MUSLIM, could have been anyone...........What they really did was kill fellow human beings, human beings!nickice wrote:My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Frank the tank wrote:
When those brainwashed idiots drove that van into the victims they didn't really know who they were killing, christian, jew,hindu,sikh, MUSLIM, could have been anyone...........What they really did was kill fellow human beings, human beings!nickice wrote:My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.
How does your reply explain why you have as much sympathy with the Muslim community as the families of the victims?0 -
Probably because racist morons will demonize the Muslim community because of this. It's bugger all to do with them. These terrorists aren't doing it because of religion. They're doing it because they're evil. It'll probably come out that they've records of criminality and booze and drugs like most of the attackers do. Not your average Muslim.
Just read about the off duty policeman who rugby tackled one of the attackers. Incredible bravery.0 -
Are you serious?nickice wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
When those brainwashed idiots drove that van into the victims they didn't really know who they were killing, christian, jew,hindu,sikh, MUSLIM, could have been anyone...........What they really did was kill fellow human beings, human beings!nickice wrote:My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.
How does your reply explain why you have as much sympathy with the Muslim community as the families of the victims?
They're human beings, muslims whether you like it or not are human beings, and they have as much truck with psychopaths as you or I.
Or are you saying all deluded idiots a muslims or all muslims are deluded idiots?
Ian Huntley is a child killer, does that make you and I guilty, 'cos he happens to be white and christian?Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
nickice wrote:
Asking for respect isn't 'extreme'...0 -
@ nickice, answer this statement please.Frank the tank wrote:
Are you serious?nickice wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
When those brainwashed idiots drove that van into the victims they didn't really know who they were killing, christian, jew,hindu,sikh, MUSLIM, could have been anyone...........What they really did was kill fellow human beings, human beings!nickice wrote:My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.
How does your reply explain why you have as much sympathy with the Muslim community as the families of the victims?
They're human beings, muslims whether you like it or not are human beings, and they have as much truck with psychopaths as you or I.
Or are you saying all deluded idiots a muslims or all muslims are deluded idiots?
Ian Huntley is a child killer, does that make you and I guilty, 'cos he happens to be white and christian?Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
cougie wrote:Probably because racist morons will demonize the Muslim community because of this. It's bugger all to do with them. These terrorists aren't doing it because of religion. They're doing it because they're evil. It'll probably come out that they've records of criminality and booze and drugs like most of the attackers do. Not your average Muslim.
Just read about the off duty policeman who rugby tackled one of the attackers. Incredible bravery.
Except this demonization of the Muslim community never happens or of anything does happen it's usually so minor as to not even be newsworthy. And, I can't believe, after all the Islamic extremist attacks all over the World, that people like you are still saying that it has nothing to do with religion. How much clearer would they have to be for you to believe them? They even told us why they were doing it. It doesn't strike you as odd that jihadists who have nothing to do with religion would be happy to die in a suicide attack? These people think they're doing God's work. I know that's hard to believe that anyone would believe they're going straight to heaven but, actually, ISIS follow a plausible interpretation of Islam. I think Sam Harris said that there is nothing ISIS are doing that Muhammed didn't do.
And your analysis of them most likely being petty criminals is not part of a consistent pattern. Most ISIS recruits have above average education and don't generally have histories of criminality.
https://www.rt.com/news/361805-isis-rec ... ted-study/.0 -
nickice wrote:
Fairly sure you can't publish child porn.
You're on the wrong side of the argument here. Dig the trench all you want.
You need to treat the terrorists like they're those kids who shoot up their schools in the US.
Nutters. That's what they are.
I can find examples of horrible atrocities committed in the name of more or less every religion. The defining factor is the bloodlust, not the religion.
To focus on the faith bit, and to ignore the nutter bit, is to be wilfully sowing hatred, which is ultimately where this all stems from.0 -
Well apart from people fire-bombing mosques, and all the lower level stuff like hurling abuse at any one they see who looks like they might be Muslim, including one of the surgeons who treated the victims of the Manchester bombing. No, nothing to see here.nickice wrote:My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.
I'm sure the Met and MI5's counter-terrorism officers will be glad to know that they've been 'tolerating' Islamism for the last 16 years or so.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
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Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Frank the tank wrote:
Are you serious?nickice wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
When those brainwashed idiots drove that van into the victims they didn't really know who they were killing, christian, jew,hindu,sikh, MUSLIM, could have been anyone...........What they really did was kill fellow human beings, human beings!nickice wrote:My sympathies lie with the muslim community every bit as they lie with the families of these victims.
No I definitely have more sympathy with the families of men, women, and children blown to pieces, stabbed or knocked down than I do with the Muslim community. In fact, I'm not really sure why I should have any sympathy with the Muslim community more than any other community.. Britain is an incredibly tolerant nation (far too tolerant of Islamism in my opinion) and the feared 'backlash' never happens.
They repeatedly stabbed a pregnant woman last night. You need to actually think about what you said.
How does your reply explain why you have as much sympathy with the Muslim community as the families of the victims?
They're human beings, muslims whether you like it or not are human beings, and they have as much truck with psychopaths as you or I.
Or are you saying all deluded idiots a muslims or all muslims are deluded idiots?
Ian Huntley is a child killer, does that make you and I guilty, 'cos he happens to be white and christian?
You've set up so many strawmen here that I don't know where to start so I'll have to make a list-
1) At no point have I said Muslims aren't human beings.
2) You still haven't explained why you have the same level of sympathy for the Muslim community as you do for the families of the victims. Given that the families are suffering far more than the Muslim community, don't you think your statement was odd?
3) I think anyone who takes religion seriously is suffering from some sort of delusion (at least in that part of their lives) but I'd say that about any follower of any religion. I think this is an entirely uncontroversial statement given that I've never seen a religion that would stand up to the most cursory scrutiny.
4) Right see the Ian Huntley (though usually it's the Jo Cox murder used in this analogy) thing- being white is not an ideology. And Ian Huntley did not claim to be acting in the name of Christianity or use bible verses to justify his action (this is the same reason why the ISIS/IRA comparison is so fallacious). If we were talking about Christian Fundamentalist attacks then, yes, I'd blame Christianity if the attackers were using a plausible interpretation of the Bible. Note that blaming Islam is not the same as blaming all Muslims as there are several different interpretations of the Koran and the Hadith and I'm well aware that many Muslims are about as religious as most Christians.
5) Finally, it would be a mistake to think that all these attacks are carried out by psychopaths. These people actually believe they're doing God's work. It's crazy I know but I think in the West that there's a refusal to believe that these guys actually believe what they say.0
