London Bridge Incident

meanredspider

Speeding van and gunfire reported

And a 2nd incident at Borough Market

crispybug2

Now reports of a third incident at Vauxhall

Reports also say that there is more than one fatality at the London Bridge incident *


* I think we can now say that this is a terrorist attack!

cougie

So awful that people are so messed up to attack innocents. My heart goes out to all in the area or with loved ones possibly there.

DeVlaeminck

Sadly these incidents may be the new normal.

Frank the tank

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Sadly these incidents may be the new normal.

This ^^^^
This issue will be a long term headache for whoever wins the GE.

Pross

Frank the tank wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Sadly these incidents may be the new normal.

This ^^^^
This issue will be a long term headache for whoever wins the GE.

Yep, if you've got people prepared to die then this sort of thing carried out by individuals or small groups, requiring little to no organisation or co-ordination and weapons that are freely available are impossible to stop.

cycleclinic

It's bad enough that some people want to kill others for ideology but to make it worse it inspires the reaction of hate in return which just puts fuel on the fire. Expect more right wing reactionary especially to call for internment deportation and other stuff. Of course all the right wing stuff cannot make anyone safer as we are at greater risk at home. My sympathises are with one affected.

mr_goo

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Sadly these incidents may be the new normal.

I believe that you may well be correct.

Condolences go out to those that have lost loved ones. Yet again.

dav1d1

thecycleclinic wrote:

It's bad enough that some people want to kill others for ideology but to make it worse it inspires the reaction of hate in return which just puts fuel on the fire. Expect more right wing reactionary especially to call for internment deportation and other stuff. Of course all the right wing stuff cannot make anyone safer as we are at greater risk at home. My sympathises are with one affected.

So what would you do than? Light a candle? Minute silence? Concert? Than wait for the next one, and say again we don't want to cause hate towards you or anything! You may kill our people, blow up our young children but it's fine! We welcome you with open arms! Your like the London mayor who said the exact same

joe2008

thecycleclinic wrote:

It's bad enough that some people want to kill others for ideology but to make it worse it inspires the reaction of hate in return which just puts fuel on the fire. Expect more right wing reactionary especially to call for internment deportation and other stuff. Of course all the right wing stuff cannot make anyone safer as we are at greater risk at home. My sympathises are with one affected.

What reaction does it inspire in you then?

mr_goo

Dav1d1 wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

It's bad enough that some people want to kill others for ideology but to make it worse it inspires the reaction of hate in return which just puts fuel on the fire. Expect more right wing reactionary especially to call for internment deportation and other stuff. Of course all the right wing stuff cannot make anyone safer as we are at greater risk at home. My sympathises are with one affected.

So what would you do than? Light a candle? Minute silence? Concert? Than wait for the next one, and say again we don't want to cause hate towards you or anything! You may kill our people, blow up our young children but it's fine! We welcome you with open arms! Your like the London mayor who said the exact same

It's probably the most difficult situation that the World now has to deal with. I do not think any head of state has a way of ending this. I just wish leaders would stop with the "It Only Makes Us Stronger" platitudes.

imposter2.0

"Enough is enough/things need to change" apparently, so internment (or some form, thereof) is now almost certainly on the way. Guantanamo 'lite' - probably on Salisbury Plain, just like in V for Vendetta.

trivial_poursuivant

Imposter wrote:

"Enough is enough/things need to change" apparently, so internment (or some form, thereof) is now almost certainly on the way. Guantanamo 'lite' - probably on Salisbury Plain, just like in V for Vendetta.

Longer sentences for terrorists (sic)

How long should we be sending suicide bombers to jail for exactly?

mr_goo

Mrs May has now stated 'enough is enough' and that extremism must be dealt with. I'm pretty sure that's what our security services, the police and armed forces have been doing for some considerable time.

I'm not labelling all Muslims, but the fundemental problem to be dealt with is the Quran and it's 100s of verses preaching against non believers. It is very much like the Old Testament of fire and brimstone preaching. There are over 2 billion Muslims in the world and increasing. If my maths is correct, if only 0.05% are radicalised that's 1 million people willing to perpetrate horrendous crimes in the name of an ancient text / fairy tale. That is what the world is dealing with.

imposter2.0

Reformation...for what it's worth, christianity had one in the 16th century...

rjsterry

Mr Goo wrote:

Mrs May has now stated 'enough is enough' and that extremism must be dealt with. I'm pretty sure that's what our security services, the police and armed forces have been doing for some considerable time.

I'm not labelling all Muslims, but the fundemental problem to be dealt with is the Quran and it's 100s of verses preaching against non believers. It is very much like the Old Testament of fire and brimstone preaching. There are over 2 billion Muslims in the world and increasing. If my maths is correct, if only 0.05% are radicalised that's 1 million people willing to perpetrate horrendous crimes in the name of an ancient text / fairy tale. That is what the world is dealing with.

Are you stating that from having read the original text (or translation)? Or if not where did you read it? Genuinely interested.

imposter2.0

Don't be confusing things with facts, now..

surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Mrs May has now stated 'enough is enough' and that extremism must be dealt with. I'm pretty sure that's what our security services, the police and armed forces have been doing for some considerable time.

I'm not labelling all Muslims, but the fundemental problem to be dealt with is the Quran and it's 100s of verses preaching against non believers. It is very much like the Old Testament of fire and brimstone preaching. There are over 2 billion Muslims in the world and increasing. If my maths is correct, if only 0.05% are radicalised that's 1 million people willing to perpetrate horrendous crimes in the name of an ancient text / fairy tale. That is what the world is dealing with.

Are you stating that from having read the original text (or translation)? Or if not where did you read it? Genuinely interested.

Daily Express/Mail the most likely source.

No need to discrimate against people by religion - just shoot or intern anybody who has travelled abroad to join AL Qaeda, IS or similar

rick_chasey

Ah just get on with BAU.

More people die in car accidents most days.

It's bad for the people involved natch, but so is lots of stuff. Emotional rubbernecking doesn't help anything.

Rozzers shot 'em, were there in 8 minutes.

They'll look into whether they need of change anything for the future.

Best treat these nutters like guys who go postal. Assume they mainly do it for the notoriety and wonder what the incentives are for them to do it. A hint - all the chuffing publicity they get.

airborne_warrior

The Koran can be interpreted in different ways, just as the bible can. It does state to show no mercy to enemy combatants but be merciful to civilians. The problem with fundamentalists is that they see any civilian who doesn't follow Sunni Islam as the enemy, be it Shia Islam, Jew, Christian or whatever.

rjsterry

Always tricky to gauge your sarcasm SC. I am genuinely interested in where this idea comes from and whether it has any basis.

city_boy

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Mrs May has now stated 'enough is enough' and that extremism must be dealt with. I'm pretty sure that's what our security services, the police and armed forces have been doing for some considerable time.

I'm not labelling all Muslims, but the fundemental problem to be dealt with is the Quran and it's 100s of verses preaching against non believers. It is very much like the Old Testament of fire and brimstone preaching. There are over 2 billion Muslims in the world and increasing. If my maths is correct, if only 0.05% are radicalised that's 1 million people willing to perpetrate horrendous crimes in the name of an ancient text / fairy tale. That is what the world is dealing with.

Are you stating that from having read the original text (or translation)? Or if not where did you read it? Genuinely interested.

Some say there are 109 verses within the Quran and Hadith promoting violence and hatred towards non-believers. Many Muslims including self confessed former Islamic extremist Maajid Nawaz claim that to read the Islamic texts as a call to jihad or extremist actions would be a "plausible interpretation".

Some of the verses are quoted here...

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... lence.aspx

Make your own mind up.

Frank the tank

It is an almost impossible situation. Some espouse internment and solutions along that line,however, those of us who are old enough can remember what a great recruiting sergeant internment was for the IRA. I feel it would have the same effect again.
At least with the Irish troubles there was a goal that could actually be negotiated around, this is not the case with ISIS or the W@nkers that carry out acts like this one.
It is a very difficult issue which will require a lot of proper thought by whoever runs the show next week.

nickice

thecycleclinic wrote:

It's bad enough that some people want to kill others for ideology but to make it worse it inspires the reaction of hate in return which just puts fuel on the fire. Expect more right wing reactionary especially to call for internment deportation and other stuff. Of course all the right wing stuff cannot make anyone safer as we are at greater risk at home. My sympathises are with one affected.

What reaction of hate? The reaction of the British people to these attacks has been incredibly restrained.If anything, we have been too understanding.

By the way, if I were a moderate Muslim I'd be in favour of the deportation of jihadists and I don't really see why that's a controversial policy if they're not British citizens (of course most of them are). As for internment, that's more problematic, but again, if I were a moderate Muslim, I wouldn't be against it in principle as moderate Muslims must want these people out of their community too.

rjsterry

City Boy wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Mrs May has now stated 'enough is enough' and that extremism must be dealt with. I'm pretty sure that's what our security services, the police and armed forces have been doing for some considerable time.

I'm not labelling all Muslims, but the fundemental problem to be dealt with is the Quran and it's 100s of verses preaching against non believers. It is very much like the Old Testament of fire and brimstone preaching. There are over 2 billion Muslims in the world and increasing. If my maths is correct, if only 0.05% are radicalised that's 1 million people willing to perpetrate horrendous crimes in the name of an ancient text / fairy tale. That is what the world is dealing with.

Are you stating that from having read the original text (or translation)? Or if not where did you read it? Genuinely interested.

Some say there are 109 verses within the Quran and Hadith promoting violence and hatred towards non-believers. Many Muslims including self confessed former Islamic extremist Maajid Nawaz claim that to read the Islamic texts as a call to jihad or extremist actions would be a "plausible interpretation".

Some of the verses are quoted here...

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... lence.aspx

Make your own mind up.

Well they've got a bit of an axe to grind, haven't they? Anyone got anything more objective?

mr_goo

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Mrs May has now stated 'enough is enough' and that extremism must be dealt with. I'm pretty sure that's what our security services, the police and armed forces have been doing for some considerable time.

I'm not labelling all Muslims, but the fundemental problem to be dealt with is the Quran and it's 100s of verses preaching against non believers. It is very much like the Old Testament of fire and brimstone preaching. There are over 2 billion Muslims in the world and increasing. If my maths is correct, if only 0.05% are radicalised that's 1 million people willing to perpetrate horrendous crimes in the name of an ancient text / fairy tale. That is what the world is dealing with.

Are you stating that from having read the original text (or translation)? Or if not where did you read it? Genuinely interested.

I've read some translations of the verses. Not the whole book granted. Note I never stated 'hate' against non believers and never state that all muslims subscribe to violence. But the holy book is tied up in knots over non Muslims.
There are internal fundemental problems with this religion dating back to 632AD when the prophet Muhammad died and the dispute over his succession. Which lead to Sunni muslims ( Al Sunni - people of tradition) and Shia (Shia Ali - the party of Ali, Muhammads son-in-law. Ali and his sons Hussain and Hussein were assassinated thus denying what Shia feel is their birth right- to lead the Islamic community). From these 2 branches have sprung several doctrinal disputes dividing Islam and which have led to war. But the real problem is that there are divisions within these 2 divisions. And more sub divisions to the point where some muslims are not even acknowledged as muslims. That is why we see many suicide attacks within Muslim communities and thats something that's been ongoing for centuries.

ugo.santalucia

I passed in front of Edgbaston cricket ground this morning... just as crowds were gathering for India-Pakistan. One would think this could be a target for terrorism for a number of reasons, including the age old question of Kashmir... and yet I have not seen a single armed police officer... a few coppers in yellow vests with a van... that's it

If the terror alert is on critical, it certainly doesn't look like over here

city_boy

rjsterry wrote:

Well they've got a bit of an axe to grind, haven't they? Anyone got anything more objective?

TBF I included the link to give an easy reference to the many verses claimed by some to be an incitement to hate/violence, as opposed to the views of the authors of the website.

You can then refer each verse back to the Quran itself...

https://quran.com/

and, having read each verse in its full context, you can then make up your own mind.

I guess you can't get any more objective than reading each verse within the context of the Quran.

rjsterry

City Boy wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Well they've got a bit of an axe to grind, haven't they? Anyone got anything more objective?

TBF I included the link to give an easy reference to the many verses claimed by some to be an incitement to hate/violence, as opposed to the views of the authors of the website.

You can then refer each verse back to the Quran itself...

https://quran.com/

and, having read each verse in its full context, you can then make up your own mind.

I guess you can't get any more objective than reading each verse within the context of the Quran.

Thanks. And thanks, Goo, for your answer.

ben@31

nickice wrote:

By the way, if I were a moderate Muslim I'd be in favour of the deportation of jihadists and I don't really see why that's a controversial policy if they're not British citizens (of course most of them are). As for internment, that's more problematic, but again, if I were a moderate Muslim, I wouldn't be against it in principle as moderate Muslims must want these people out of their community too.

The problem is Uk Muslim leaders are never seen in the media to be condemning these acts of terrorism.
I'm not saying they don't, if they do it's not reported.Which doesn't help the situation.
Hopefully official condemnation from the religious leaders will prevent extremism on both sides. Preventing the hatred backlash from the right wing but also get it into the heads of vulnerable young Muslim men that this behaviour is not the answer or the Islamic stance.

mr_goo

ben@31 wrote:

nickice wrote:

By the way, if I were a moderate Muslim I'd be in favour of the deportation of jihadists and I don't really see why that's a controversial policy if they're not British citizens (of course most of them are). As for internment, that's more problematic, but again, if I were a moderate Muslim, I wouldn't be against it in principle as moderate Muslims must want these people out of their community too.

The problem is Uk Muslim leaders are never seen in the media to be condemning these acts of terrorism.
I'm not saying they don't, if they do it's not reported.Which doesn't help the situation.
Hopefully official condemnation from the religious leaders will prevent extremism on both sides. Preventing the hatred backlash from the right wing but also get it into the heads of vulnerable young Muslim men that this behaviour is not the answer or the Islamic stance.

I believe that many of the 'UK' Muslim leaders are in fact on attachment to the mosques from islamic countries of origin. Which might be a reason why they will not publicly condemn the acts of terrorism committed in the name of Islam. On returning to their homeland it could prove rather precarious for them.

And as for right wing backlash. Well that's inevitable sadly. I work with a Roman Catholic Indian chap and what has spewed forth from his mouth about muslims would make some boot boys blush. So the anti islamic sentiment within the UK is not just a white supremacist thing.