CMS hearings into the alleged culture of doping and bullying at British Cycling

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  • CuthbertC
    CuthbertC Posts: 172
    RichN95 wrote:
    YorkshireRaw wrote:
    Isn't the issue that the package was delivered and used on the final day of the Dauphine - albeit after finishing the stage, but still technically 'in competition' (rule is 'in competition' is up to midnight on the day of any race). Therefore if it was Kenalog rather than flumicil in the jiffy they're in a bit of trouble, as no TUE was in place for the Dauphine.
    But no-one (beyond internet speculation) has made that accusation.

    Richard Moore tweeted some pages from is book about 2010 Sky in which Brailsford and Freeman basically said they were willing to do the legal stuff, but not the illegal. We know some took tramadol, probably some took OOC cortisone. In 2010/11 that wasn't really much of an issue. But now, a few years later the post-Armstrong media make a huge deal out of something as minor as an asthma inhaler - and it's impossible to have an honest conversation about it even if they knocked it on the head several years ago.

    Sapstead said that the source has alleged that the package contained triamcinolone (kenalog).
  • CuthbertC
    CuthbertC Posts: 172
    joe2008 wrote:
    Sapstead said that she had seen the medical orders from BC/Sky and there were none for Fluimucil.

    This is very strange given what Brailsford has said previously:
    Does a documentary paper-trail exist? “It should be there,” says Brailsford. “Ukad have all the invoices for our medical supplies. My understanding is that there is product code on each item.”

    You'd think that Brailsford would have known for sure whether or not a paper trial existed before giving evidence to the select committee. So either he was mislead by someone else or he lied.

    There is also no record of fluimucil being administered to Wiggins:
    There are no records kept by Dr. Freeman. There are no records whatsoever of any treatment during the course of that event.

    Yet there are records of triamcinolone being ordered by British Cycling:
    We’ve seen orders Team Sky and British Cycling that indicate that triamcinolone has been ordered," Sapstead said.

    Did the volume of triamcinolone ordered outweighed the doses legally prescribed to Bradley Wiggins for his approved TUES?
    Yes,” she replied. “Specifically, in relation to Bradley Wiggins, yes. There was far more. You would either think that it was an excessive amount of triamcinolone ordered for one person or quite a few people had a similar problem.

    So, no documentary evidence at all to support Freeman's claim that the package contained fluimucil. I've seen many people repeatedly emphasise the need to provide evidence in relation to Sky, Wiggins, Froome, etc. So why should anybody believe Freeman's claim when no documentary evidence exists?

    On the other hand, there are records of triamcinolone being ordered, which coincidentally happens to be the same substance that Wiggins required TUEs for. It is also the same substance that the source has alleged was in the package.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,459
    Only the British could have a doping scandal which doesn't include doping.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    They are really stretching the concept of plausible deniability
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:
    cq20 wrote:
    But she didn't quantify or justify her assertions and did mention the in / out of competition point. Given the records are so sparse or not available, it will be difficult to go much further
    That makes it worse though. It's possible to justify using triamcinolone on a rider who has tried other treatments and is still suffering. It's even possible to justify it over other treatments that would normally be used as it's a single injection and much more easily manageable. That's for one rider though. Triamcinolone in excessive amounts for one rider starts to suggest use by several riders and suddenly that's a very different ball game.

    Exactly this, but some people wont believe it whatever.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    They are really stretching the concept of plausible deniability
    Lol just a bit.
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Has there been proof provided that the laptop was stolen in Greece - presumably it would have been reported to the police and or insurance.

    Sapstead said that they have contacted Interplod but haven't yet received any proof.

    Pretty handly having it stolen in Greece, I should imagine their record keeping is probably in line with that of Team Sky. :D
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    joe2008 wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Has there been proof provided that the laptop was stolen in Greece - presumably it would have been reported to the police and or insurance.

    Sapstead said that they have contacted Interplod but haven't yet received any proof.

    Pretty handly having it stolen in Greece, I should imagine their record keeping is probably in line with that of Team Sky. :D

    She said that she believed the theft had been reported to the police in Greece.
    She knew that the theft had been reported to BC.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Rodrego Hernandez
    Rodrego Hernandez Posts: 1,436
    The committee needs to get the right people in and ask the right questions. When the police investigate, they always gather evidence with the aim of catching the instigators. This is what the CMS need to do, they've spoken to the monkeys, now they need to get the evidence against the organ grinder.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,228
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:
    cq20 wrote:
    But she didn't quantify or justify her assertions and did mention the in / out of competition point. Given the records are so sparse or not available, it will be difficult to go much further
    That makes it worse though. It's possible to justify using triamcinolone on a rider who has tried other treatments and is still suffering. It's even possible to justify it over other treatments that would normally be used as it's a single injection and much more easily manageable. That's for one rider though. Triamcinolone in excessive amounts for one rider starts to suggest use by several riders and suddenly that's a very different ball game.

    Exactly this, but some people wont believe it whatever.

    I thought it was only in competition that this would be illegal. The fact that they didn't sign up to the mpcc meant I assumed this was being used out of competition. Whether it was being used illegally is another matter.

    Deliberately bad record keeping is unforgivably stupid.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    For those interested in a balanced summary of timings and facts, read the times today. The article called the Jiffy bag that wont go away and the following time based summary is very good.

    It doesn't say he's guilty but it does leave it to the reader to decide. It also reminds the reader that the premise of marginal gains, the little details that make all the difference is at odds with the practice of not keeping tabs on what drugs are supplied and to who. Of course, the lack of records makes it difficult to be found guilty OR prove innocence in the Jiffy bag case. Either way, wiggins, team sky and BC have a wiffy smell about them.
  • Richmond Racer 2
    Richmond Racer 2 Posts: 4,698
    VinnyMarsden wrote:
    Im starting to wish Team Sky had been honest from the start and admitted they were fuc ...ng useless in relation to record keeping etc!!
    It is staggering that a team with bottomless reserves of cash/equipment/technology could not or simply did not record what was going where, to whom and from who.
    It kind of makes me wish I knew where their service course HQ is, as I'm thinking if they apply the same lackadaisical approach to component/bike stock I could just waltz in/out with a nice top of the range machine!!
    Joiking aside..I am not that ar sed about the TUE's and all the other crap that "certain" individuals on here CONSTANTLY bang on about, what I am concerned with is the total shambolic management of what, on the surface is touted as a "professional" sports team.There's no wonder Sky subs are so expensive, it's no doubt to cover all the "lost" gear!!
    Leicester City sacked their manager after their most perfect season ever...how long until SDB has to basically fall on the sword!
    I used to run a small golf society and I think my records were better than Skys from what is revealed!!


    Their service course is near Deinze.

    You're welcome.
  • pedro118118
    pedro118118 Posts: 1,102
    This does present as rather shambolic.

    That said, am I correct in my understanding that UKAD's remit was to investigate the 'package' and, as such, only the period during the Dauphine in 2011? Is it this period (say 2 weeks in June 2011), where record keeping was exposed as being absent? Or did UKAD reveal a systematic issue with record keeping for ordering/issuing/administering medication at BC/Sky extending beyond June 2011?

    Similarly re: Sky protocol, which compelled team doctors to upload their files to drop box. Are UKAD saying that this protocol was not followed at the Dauphine in 2011 with Wiggins, or this protocol was not complied with, full stop?

    Surely this is an important consideration?

    The PSC have said the reputation/credibility of BC/Sky is "in tatters". If that is because Sky/BC cannot provide documentary evidence of what was in a single package delivered to Dr Richard Freeman at the Dauphine in June 2011, it seems very harsh/misleading to me.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    pedro118118 wrote:
    This does present as rather shambolic.

    That said, am I correct in my understanding that UKAD's remit was to investigate the 'package' and, as such, only the period during the Dauphine in 2011? Is it this period (say 2 weeks in June 2011), where record keeping was exposed as being absent? Or did UKAD reveal a systematic issue with record keeping for ordering/issuing/administering medication at BC/Sky extending beyond June 2011?

    Similarly re: Sky protocol, which compelled team doctors to upload their files to drop box. Are UKAD saying that this protocol was not followed at the Dauphine in 2011 with Wiggins, or this protocol was not complied with, full stop?

    Surely this is an important consideration?

    The PSC have said the reputation/credibility of BC/Sky is "in tatters". If that is because Sky/BC cannot provide documentary evidence of what was in a single package delivered to Dr Richard Freeman at the Dauphine in June 2011, it seems very harsh/misleading to me.

    Read this then

    A Jiffy bag that simply won’t go away http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/missi ... 5c9003f73b
  • Rodrego Hernandez
    Rodrego Hernandez Posts: 1,436
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:
    cq20 wrote:
    But she didn't quantify or justify her assertions and did mention the in / out of competition point. Given the records are so sparse or not available, it will be difficult to go much further
    That makes it worse though. It's possible to justify using triamcinolone on a rider who has tried other treatments and is still suffering. It's even possible to justify it over other treatments that would normally be used as it's a single injection and much more easily manageable. That's for one rider though. Triamcinolone in excessive amounts for one rider starts to suggest use by several riders and suddenly that's a very different ball game.

    Exactly this, but some people wont believe it whatever.

    I thought it was only in competition that this would be illegal. The fact that they didn't sign up to the mpcc meant I assumed this was being used out of competition. Whether it was being used illegally is another matter.

    Deliberately bad record keeping is unforgivably stupid.

    Competition is classed as the entire day until midnight. If the team / doc administered something on the last day of competition that isn't allowed in competition, then they are in trouble.
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    edited March 2017
    pedro118118 wrote:
    Similarly re: Sky protocol, which compelled team doctors to upload their files to drop box. Are UKAD saying that this protocol was not followed at the Dauphine in 2011 with Wiggins, or this protocol was not complied with, full stop?

    Sapstead said that team doctors adhered to the dropbox protocol, except Freeman who didn't upload anything, everything was on the stolen laptop.
  • Hinaultscrapcousin
    Hinaultscrapcousin Posts: 647
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:
    cq20 wrote:
    But she didn't quantify or justify her assertions and did mention the in / out of competition point. Given the records are so sparse or not available, it will be difficult to go much further
    That makes it worse though. It's possible to justify using triamcinolone on a rider who has tried other treatments and is still suffering. It's even possible to justify it over other treatments that would normally be used as it's a single injection and much more easily manageable. That's for one rider though. Triamcinolone in excessive amounts for one rider starts to suggest use by several riders and suddenly that's a very different ball game.

    Exactly this, but some people wont believe it whatever.

    I thought it was only in competition that this would be illegal. The fact that they didn't sign up to the mpcc meant I assumed this was being used out of competition. Whether it was being used illegally is another matter.

    Deliberately bad record keeping is unforgivably stupid.

    Myself and VG didn't said it was illegal/against the rules, but it starts opening BC/Sky to some very uncomfortable questions. Someone would need to go through the past hearing notes, interviews etc. but I seem to remember both organisations being fairly adamant they were not abusing glucocorticosteroids. Even the small amount of access UKAD got seems to indicate that this is untrue. I'm pretty sure that using any medical product that appears on the prohibited list with no medical justification is against the WADA Code, but I'm not sure. I don't know the code nearly as well as I know the prohibited list. I also don't know if that could ever result in a doping violation, but it's certainly not going to play well in the media or with sponsors. That's also assuming it wasn't used in competition or that when it was and a TUE was granted the TUE was legitimate.

    It's very important that it was excessive amounts of triamcinolone found. If it were cortisone, in whatever form, that's fairly easy to explain. Triamcinolone is not. I'm pretty sure Leinders has been tied to triamcinolone abuse as well but again I may not be remembering that right. Was Freeman involved in the hiring of Leinders? That rings a bell too.


    Anyone who is a fan of Sky/BC should take a step back and imagine what they would think if this had come out about Astana, Katusha, Russian, US, French Track Cycling etc. I feel many will be desperate to brush this aside as nothing new or playing to the rules as closely as possible. I'm pretty sure that if this weren't Sky many people would see this evidence in a very different light.
  • specialgueststar
    specialgueststar Posts: 3,418
    Has Cavendish made public statement s about this yet? In his book he has a lot to say but as far as I see has remained fairly tight lipped despite his rainbow jersey and stage wins in light of claims excess amounts of medication s ordered and a pick a mix culture
    seemingly exposed
  • cq20
    cq20 Posts: 207
    I'm neither pro nor anti Sky or BC. My observations on this is that the organisation(s?) were not managed well by accepted corporate standards. It is of no use having procedures in place if you don't audit and test them. It was the organisations duty to ensure that Freeman did make off site (secure) backups of all defined data and the organisation's duty to review and test these backups (one FS company I know of tests its full data centre restore on an external site every 6 months). Freeman also has a duty to follow procedures and it is unclear if any action has been taken against him for the stated failures.

    The failure of Sapstead to quantify her assertions doesn't help. She must have the data to back it up, in which case she should disclose it to add some perspective e.g. was it "enough" to 2, 20, 200 people?

    It is a sorry story that I believe won't be resolve by the CMS committee (unimpressive), Sky, BC, UKAD (I have my doubts about the competence), forum members or journalists. A decent governance audit team aided by independent medics could probably crack it and construct a best practices series of protocols.

    So, IMV, proven incompetence but not proven malpractice with respect to the drug (lose term) usage and administration.
  • carbonclem
    carbonclem Posts: 1,798
    Critics do need to decide wether they wish to judge Team Sky on absolute rules, or are happy to blur lines and use a self imposed moral code.

    If its hard and fast rules they they can chase down the potential administration of kenalog after the Dauphine, but by the same token must accept that all OOC use of it is of no consequence.
    If a moral code is used they they can castigate them for OOC use as bad practice, but accept that if a administration of kenalog occured immediately post Dauphine then it had no effect on the race itself, or subsequent events, and doesn't warrant a punishment.
    2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner
  • cq20
    cq20 Posts: 207
    edited March 2017
    Duplicate
  • Rodrego Hernandez
    Rodrego Hernandez Posts: 1,436
    As someone pointed out on Twitter yesterday, ride a race with disc brakes and the entire Pro peloton has something to say. Unravel the murky dealing of a team that promised to be transparent and squeaky clean and no one says a thing.

    The sky fanatics are being very quiet, Fran Millar must be in an internet free zone, Richard Moore has gone silent, all those that swore blind that Dave B (who they had never met) would never do anything remotely dodgy have all been conspicuous by their absence. The only sound really coming from David Walsh who is obviously in a panic as his current Golden Goose is teetering at the edge of a precipice so he's trying to protect Froome.

    Whilst this is al fascinating to watch, it is such a wasted opportunity and has put the credibility of Pro cycling back to the Armstrong years.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:
    Anyone who is a fan of Sky/BC should take a step back and imagine what they would think if this had come out about Astana, Katusha, Russian, US, French Track Cycling etc. I feel many will be desperate to brush this aside as nothing new or playing to the rules as closely as possible. I'm pretty sure that if this weren't Sky many people would see this evidence in a very different light.
    Remember Maria Sharapova and all those Russians with their heart drug last year. No-one thought they had a heart disease, but similarly I can't remember anyone getting their knickers in a twist about them using pre-2015 when it was legal.

    I've said on many occasions, sport is just a contest according to an arbitrary set of rules. Stay within those rules. The spirit of the rules, morals or ethics don'come into it. And the fact is Wiggins could be injecting Kenalog by the litre out of competition and he's within the rules.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Rodrego Hernandez
    Rodrego Hernandez Posts: 1,436
    edited March 2017
    Duplicate
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,228
    Maybe they needed to get above a certain order value for free shipping.
  • carbonclem
    carbonclem Posts: 1,798
    edited March 2017
    Duplicate post deleted.
    2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner
  • Rodrego Hernandez
    Rodrego Hernandez Posts: 1,436
    RichN95 wrote:
    Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:
    Anyone who is a fan of Sky/BC should take a step back and imagine what they would think if this had come out about Astana, Katusha, Russian, US, French Track Cycling etc. I feel many will be desperate to brush this aside as nothing new or playing to the rules as closely as possible. I'm pretty sure that if this weren't Sky many people would see this evidence in a very different light.
    Remember Maria Sharapova and all those Russians with their heart drug last year. No-one thought they had a heart disease, but similarly I can't remember anyone getting their knickers in a twist about them using pre-2015 when it was legal.

    I've said on many occasions, sport is just a contest according to an arbitrary set of rules. Stay within those rules. The spirit of the rules, morals or ethics don'come into it. And the fact is Wiggins could be injecting Kenalog by the litre out of competition and he's within the rules.

    The issue here is did he take it during competition. Other issues around the legitimacy of the proscription are also in play.

    The most important thing is who decided that Kenalog was the solution and green-lit its use.
  • Richmond Racer 2
    Richmond Racer 2 Posts: 4,698
    edited March 2017
    Rodrego Hernandez wrote:
    As someone pointed out on Twitter yesterday, ride a race with disc brakes and the entire Pro peloton has something to say. Unravel the murky dealing of a team that promised to be transparent and squeaky clean and no one says a thing.

    The sky fanatics are being very quiet, Fran Millar must be in an internet free zone, Richard Moore has gone silent, all those that swore blind that Dave B (who they had never met) would never do anything remotely dodgy have all been conspicuous by their absence. The only sound really coming from David Walsh who is obviously in a panic as his current Golden Goose is teetering at the edge of a precipice so he's trying to protect Froome.

    Whilst this is al fascinating to watch, it is such a wasted opportunity and has put the credibility of Pro cycling back to the Armstrong years.



    How so? I can see tweets on his Twitter feed - and have since all this started - and its been the subject of several Cycling Podcasts - again, since it all broke. His name has also been the byline on articles on the subject in The Scotsman
  • carbonclem
    carbonclem Posts: 1,798
    Rodrego Hernandez wrote:
    Fran Millar must be in an internet free zone, Richard Moore has gone silent,

    I beleive Fran Millar is away in Hong Kong?

    Richard was tweeting regarding it yesterday, and the new podcast stated it was too late to include and will be discussed next week.
    2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,228
    cq20 wrote:
    So, IMV, proven incompetence but not proven malpractice with respect to the drug (lose term) usage and administration.

    But there's a fair bit of lying there too by someone. Either to cover incompetence or malpractice. And there's the problem. If it's the former, then people will also assume the latter.

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