Are bulk powders and portien shakes good for your health?

rpaton

thejames wrote:

Are bulk powders/ protein shakes good for your health even in a balance diet? Are their any bad effects the sudden influx of nutrients that these drinks give your body? What about the persevatives in them? Can they cause diabtetes? cancer?

Would be more than help full if you can help with this.

thank you!

Who can tell.
What is in these magic powders?
BBC documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tCml6wtqrY

scott_w1987

You'd have to drink about a litre of milk after every ride to get the same amount of protein!

http://www.theproteinworks.com/whey-pro ... oncentrate

I've had a few of there flavours and they all taste very good and mix very easily in water and milk.

meanredspider

scott_w1987 wrote:

You'd have to drink about a litre of milk after every ride to get the same amount of protein!

Which should give you a clue that you don't need anything like that quantity of protein....

fat daddy

meanredspider wrote:

Which should give you a clue that you don't need anything like that quantity of protein....

define "you" ... just because you don't need that much it doesn't mean other people don't require more protein.

and whey can give you the same amount of protein without the 50g+ of sugar wrapped around it ..... its horses for courses, I have said it before and I'll say it again, there is no such thing as a bad food, just a bad diet.

I like Whey .... all the fun of a milkshake with the goodness of a chicken breast

Alex99

meanredspider wrote:

Smudgerii wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

OK - you want to be a pedant about it.

I worked in R&D for 10 years for a diabetes care company in both insulin delivery and blood glucose measurement. I might understand more than you realise about nutrition.

In that case your post should be more accurate. "Pedant"? No, just like accuracy from people who claim to be giving infomation/advice.

As I said, it's far far more complex than 99% of this forum would understand and, even then, they are only models of the various metabolic processes and swamped by the differences in our various make-ups. If you'd like to outline why it makes a blind bit of difference, I'd be very interested to read it. My son's studying biochemistry at Cambridge - his text on the chemistry of cells cost £100 and alone is the size and weight of two house bricks - if you want accuracy, feel free and I'll give you the ISBN

The problem is, that you now pull rank by touting your qualifications (as if that has any bearing on whethe you have made valid points) and get shirty, accusing someone of being pedantic when you are challenged. You go on to say that most of the people on heere wouldn't understand anyway. If you're capable of a more accurate discussion, please don't feel the need to dumb down the discussion on my part.

Excess protein, at some point in time after ingestion will end up as urea, CO2 and H2O (going via glycogen, or fatty acids). That process releases energy. That is unless you can show me that alpha-keto acids are just excreted?

guy.spartacus

philthy3 wrote:

So your whey powders etc aren't a supplement? Think you'll find they are and the manufacturers are also making millions out of the end user. A shake is simply a more nutritional way of ingesting those same products. Herbalife is also the only product that can claim to be made from natural products and not manufactured from chemicals in a laboratory. That certification is only allowed on their products. You don't like it; good for you.

I'm a distributor because, as already mentioned, I get the products at a discounted price, therefore not paying someone else to order them for me.

When did I say that whey wasn't a supplement? I believe I actually wrote

'A balanced diet with targeted macronutrient and calorie goals does not require expensive powders and supplementation - if you want to, you can buy a multivitamin tablet, fish oil caplets and some whey protein powder to help achieve those goals.'

This suggests that you CAN achieve a balanced diet without supplementation BUT a whey protein powder will help IF required.

I like the 'OMG CHEMICALS' stance though - very good. Which bit of a whey protein powder is made in a laboratory?

This one for instance - http://www.myprotein.com/sports-nutriti ... 30943.html

Ingredients list below;
Unflavoured: Whey Protein Concentrate (Milk) (100%), Emulsifier (Soy Lecithin)

I'm trying to find a Herbalife product similar - the 'Formula 1 Healthy Meal Nutritional Shake' seems to be the standard that you add bits to

http://catalog.herbalife.com/Catalog/en ... -Shake-Mix

http://az31823.vo.msecnd.net/content/en ... bel_us.pdf

Can you see that ingredients list? I'll paste it below;



Would you look at all those CHEMICALS!!

diy

There will be few people on this thread who can use more than 200-300g of protein a day. For most it will be a lot less. Its also unlikely that anyone here can usefully use more than about 40g of protein in one hit post exercise. Given that magic powders cost 10 x more than skimmed milk powder, I'm not convinced of the benefits. Some greek yoghurt with fruit chunks would work, as would a standard milk shake with skimmed milk, dried skimmed milk powder and a banana

Both have a sensible amount of carbs to also be fairly handy recovery drinks. If you really want to get gainz and assuming your are young enough and train well enough not to be seriously damaged by all the hormones triggered, then you actually need to have a very disciplined diet, probably consisting of 5-6 meals, structured around 2 training sessions a day.

Herbalife, Juiceplus, Aloe cleanse etc.. personally I'd avoid like the plague. Anything which uses multi-level marketing (which is I think what was meant by someone who said pyramid selling) leaves a blurring between retailers and consumers. This is bad, because new consumers read all the rave reviews which are mostly written by distributors.

StillGoing

diy wrote:

There will be few people on this thread who can use more than 200-300g of protein a day. For most it will be a lot less. Its also unlikely that anyone here can usefully use more than about 40g of protein in one hit post exercise. Given that magic powders cost 10 x more than skimmed milk powder, I'm not convinced of the benefits. Some greek yoghurt with fruit chunks would work, as would a standard milk shake with skimmed milk, dried skimmed milk powder and a banana

Both have a sensible amount of carbs to also be fairly handy recovery drinks. If you really want to get gainz and assuming your are young enough and train well enough not to be seriously damaged by all the hormones triggered, then you actually need to have a very disciplined diet, probably consisting of 5-6 meals, structured around 2 training sessions a day.

Herbalife, Juiceplus, Aloe cleanse etc.. personally I'd avoid like the plague. Anything which uses multi-level marketing (which is I think what was meant by someone who said pyramid selling) leaves a blurring between retailers and consumers. This is bad, because new consumers read all the rave reviews which are mostly written by distributors.

No he meant that it is a typical scheme where the man at the bottom is handing their money to the man at the top, when in fact it operates just like all consumer products work. The manufacturer, sells to the retailer who sells to the end user, each adding their little bit of profit to the price.

Reviews by the consumers (who don't go on to be distributors) for all those products are also out there. Just because a company chooses to advertise, doesn't make it bad. If on the other hand, they make claims that cannot be substantiated, then that is an entirely different matter, by which, the advertising watchdog would have no hesitation in acting on it.

guy.spartacus

philthy3 wrote:

No he meant that it is a typical scheme where the man at the bottom is handing their money to the man at the top, when in fact it operates just like all consumer products work. The manufacturer, sells to the retailer who sells to the end user, each adding their little bit of profit to the price.

Reviews by the consumers (who don't go on to be distributors) for all those products are also out there. Just because a company chooses to advertise, doesn't make it bad. If on the other hand, they make claims that cannot be substantiated, then that is an entirely different matter, by which, the advertising watchdog would have no hesitation in acting on it.

Thanks for putting those words in my mouth. You've already said that you, as a distributor, don't make any money - you pass on all your 'discount' to your customers.

May I ask how much you're spending with the manufacturer per month?

meanredspider

Alex99 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Smudgerii wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

OK - you want to be a pedant about it.

I worked in R&D for 10 years for a diabetes care company in both insulin delivery and blood glucose measurement. I might understand more than you realise about nutrition.

In that case your post should be more accurate. "Pedant"? No, just like accuracy from people who claim to be giving infomation/advice.

As I said, it's far far more complex than 99% of this forum would understand and, even then, they are only models of the various metabolic processes and swamped by the differences in our various make-ups. If you'd like to outline why it makes a blind bit of difference, I'd be very interested to read it. My son's studying biochemistry at Cambridge - his text on the chemistry of cells cost £100 and alone is the size and weight of two house bricks - if you want accuracy, feel free and I'll give you the ISBN

The problem is, that you now pull rank by touting your qualifications (as if that has any bearing on whethe you have made valid points) and get shirty, accusing someone of being pedantic when you are challenged. You go on to say that most of the people on heere wouldn't understand anyway. If you're capable of a more accurate discussion, please don't feel the need to dumb down the discussion on my part.

Excess protein, at some point in time after ingestion will end up as urea, CO2 and H2O (going via glycogen, or fatty acids). That process releases energy. That is unless you can show me that alpha-keto acids are just excreted?

The quote comes out of context because I quoted my background in order to show that that Smudgerii wasn't the only person that understood nutrition (which was what an earlier post of his began to infer).

So how much energy input is required in order to release that energy i.e. What's the energy balance? I think that if you're looking for a source of meaningful calories, protein isn't much good. There are calories in it but they aren't readily accessed by the body (as they are in carbs and fats).

diy

philthy3 wrote:

No he meant that it is a typical scheme where the man at the bottom is handing their money to the man at the top, when in fact it operates just like all consumer products work. The manufacturer, sells to the retailer who sells to the end user, each adding their little bit of profit to the price.

That is factually wrong, there is a blurring between retailer and consumer, because the retailer presents himself as a consumer. It affects how the consumer can exercise their statutory rights, judgement of who they are dealing with, how product claims can be scrutinised and often gives the impression that the distributor is some sort of trained expert.

With MLM's most retailers are presenting themselves as consumers able to get a good deal and pass the savings on.

There can be little scrutiny over the retailer because there are so many and competition so fierce for the business that its easy to hide behind "unauthorised" claims and "bad" practices, when in reality their distribution models encourage it.

fat daddy

so to summarise.

(1) simple protein powder that is a basic whey isolate wont harm you, its a form of readily available and versatile protein

(2) mass gainers/ bulking shakes, have protein powder in them and a crap load of carb fillers/sugars to increase the calorie intake

(3) You don't "need" protein powder you can get the same protein from meat, legumes, fish, milk etc .... but then you don't need chicken and you don't need legumes

(4) no one knows how much protein you need, its used to build muscle and repair and rebuild, how much you need is fully dependant on what you do and what your goals are and how big you are and how much lean mass you have

(5) If you eat differently to someone on the internet and lwet them know, they will get angry and belittle you .... its not your fault you arnt doing anything wrong, its them, they are incapable of understanding that other people are not them .... the internet is relatively young and in the same way a baby cannot differentiate itself from its parents and assumes it it what it sees, so do these people, as the internet matures this will become a thing of the past.

(6) Food isn't bad for you .... you can prove this buy getting 2 people, feed one of them with nothing but your choice of food ie mass gainer powder .... and feed the other person nothing at all .... see which one dies first.

Alex99

meanredspider wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Smudgerii wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

OK - you want to be a pedant about it.

I worked in R&D for 10 years for a diabetes care company in both insulin delivery and blood glucose measurement. I might understand more than you realise about nutrition.

In that case your post should be more accurate. "Pedant"? No, just like accuracy from people who claim to be giving infomation/advice.

As I said, it's far far more complex than 99% of this forum would understand and, even then, they are only models of the various metabolic processes and swamped by the differences in our various make-ups. If you'd like to outline why it makes a blind bit of difference, I'd be very interested to read it. My son's studying biochemistry at Cambridge - his text on the chemistry of cells cost £100 and alone is the size and weight of two house bricks - if you want accuracy, feel free and I'll give you the ISBN

The problem is, that you now pull rank by touting your qualifications (as if that has any bearing on whethe you have made valid points) and get shirty, accusing someone of being pedantic when you are challenged. You go on to say that most of the people on heere wouldn't understand anyway. If you're capable of a more accurate discussion, please don't feel the need to dumb down the discussion on my part.

Excess protein, at some point in time after ingestion will end up as urea, CO2 and H2O (going via glycogen, or fatty acids). That process releases energy. That is unless you can show me that alpha-keto acids are just excreted?

The quote comes out of context because I quoted my background in order to show that that Smudgerii wasn't the only person that understood nutrition (which was what an earlier post of his began to infer).

So how much energy input is required in order to release that energy i.e. What's the energy balance? I think that if you're looking for a source of meaningful calories, protein isn't much good. There are calories in it but they aren't readily accessed by the body (as they are in carbs and fats).

The question is, what happens to protein ingested in excess to protein requirements? You're saying that as a source of energy, it "isn't much good." It's not clear what you mean by this.

Do you refer to an the human organisms preference for carbohydrate vs protein for energy, or are you suggesting that not much energy can be derived from protein at all. Excess protein can be, and will be converted to glycogen and fatty acids, and then may be used to produce ATP from there as needed. That is unless it's been shown that there is a mechanism to either poop or wee out excess protein, amino acids, or other non-catabolized products. I don't think this would be normal.

Regarding protein and energy balance, there is one figure that is relevant here: 4 kcal/g

smudgerii

fat daddy wrote:

so to summarise.

(1) simple protein powder that is a basic whey isolate wont harm you, its a form of readily available and versatile protein

(2) mass gainers/ bulking shakes, have protein powder in them and a crap load of carb fillers/sugars to increase the calorie intake

(3) You don't "need" protein powder you can get the same protein from meat, legumes, fish, milk etc .... but then you don't need chicken and you don't need legumes

(4) no one knows how much protein you need, its used to build muscle and repair and rebuild, how much you need is fully dependant on what you do and what your goals are and how big you are and how much lean mass you have

(5) If you eat differently to someone on the internet and lwet them know, they will get angry and belittle you .... its not your fault you arnt doing anything wrong, its them, they are incapable of understanding that other people are not them .... the internet is relatively young and in the same way a baby cannot differentiate itself from its parents and assumes it it what it sees, so do these people, as the internet matures this will become a thing of the past.

(6) Food isn't bad for you .... you can prove this buy getting 2 people, feed one of them with nothing but your choice of food ie mass gainer powder .... and feed the other person nothing at all .... see which one dies first.

Great summary... They still won't agree with you

meanredspider

I read the book today "Sumo" - that's exactly what I intend to do. "Quam minimum credula postero"

scott_w1987

fat daddy wrote:

so to summarise.

(1) simple protein powder that is a basic whey isolate wont harm you, its a form of readily available and versatile protein

(2) mass gainers/ bulking shakes, have protein powder in them and a crap load of carb fillers/sugars to increase the calorie intake

(3) You don't "need" protein powder you can get the same protein from meat, legumes, fish, milk etc .... but then you don't need chicken and you don't need legumes

(4) no one knows how much protein you need, its used to build muscle and repair and rebuild, how much you need is fully dependant on what you do and what your goals are and how big you are and how much lean mass you have

(5) If you eat differently to someone on the internet and lwet them know, they will get angry and belittle you .... its not your fault you arnt doing anything wrong, its them, they are incapable of understanding that other people are not them .... the internet is relatively young and in the same way a baby cannot differentiate itself from its parents and assumes it it what it sees, so do these people, as the internet matures this will become a thing of the past.

(6) Food isn't bad for you .... you can prove this buy getting 2 people, feed one of them with nothing but your choice of food ie mass gainer powder .... and feed the other person nothing at all .... see which one dies first.

Delete all posts after the first post and leave the above.

And to the OP.

Buy this - http://www.theproteinworks.com/whey-pro ... oncentrate

Just a warning though, it's got sucralose in it. Definitely sounds like a killer.

StillGoing

guy.spartacus wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

No he meant that it is a typical scheme where the man at the bottom is handing their money to the man at the top, when in fact it operates just like all consumer products work. The manufacturer, sells to the retailer who sells to the end user, each adding their little bit of profit to the price.

Reviews by the consumers (who don't go on to be distributors) for all those products are also out there. Just because a company chooses to advertise, doesn't make it bad. If on the other hand, they make claims that cannot be substantiated, then that is an entirely different matter, by which, the advertising watchdog would have no hesitation in acting on it.

Thanks for putting those words in my mouth. You've already said that you, as a distributor, don't make any money - you pass on all your 'discount' to your customers.

May I ask how much you're spending with the manufacturer per month?

I don't have customers. Anybody that asks me if I can get them products I will sell at the same price I get it for. For personal use, £36 every 2 months.

guy.spartacus

philthy3 wrote:

I don't have customers. Anybody that asks me if I can get them products I will sell at the same price I get it for. For personal use, £36 every 2 months.

And what products do you use? Any comment on the 'OMG CHEMICALS' post above where Herbalife Formula 1 has countless chemicals listed in the ingredients?

Gromson

I think the key to all of this is to find out what works for YOU and not worry about what other people are doing or saying about this extract of trendyfruit or that exotic preparation of beaversnot.

This is my dietary and training plan for today.

I had a banana for breakfast*
I've had a bag of Walkers Smokey Bacon crisps for lunch**
I'm having steamed vegetables and some salmon for supper***
I cycled 20 miles before showering and then driving to work****
It's club paceline session tonight, so there's another 25 miles in zone 2*****

Simples.


* I forgot to buy more cereal yesterday. The only realistic choice was a brown banana or a sachet of Whiskas Cod chunks in jelly.

** The ATM at work is out of order and I only had 70p in loose change. On a positive note, I've still got 15p left for the rest of the day. Might treat myself to a 10p Haribo mixup bag.

*** The salmon is already past its "Best By" date, and I dont like waste, so it needs using up before it evolves into a landbased mammal.

**** The River Tyne at Tynemouth stands between me and work. The cycle tunnel has been closed for 4 years now. Driving through the car tunnel until such time as the cycle tunnel is refurbished by a contractor who can finish the job without going into administration like the previous two.

***** I think we live in Zone 2. I know Newcastle is in Zone 1. I dont use public transport if I can help it. I dont know how all these people on turbo trainers manage to cycle and use them on all zones

diy

Wow... so the rumours are true...

It is grim up north

scott_w1987

I don't have customers. Anybody that asks me if I can get them products I will sell at the same price I get it for. For personal use, £36 every 2 months.

Very vague. What do you get for £36? If I buy £36 worth of protein from The Protein Works or any other bulk supplier it would last me 2 months!

rpaton

Does this look more appetizing than magic powder?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6-A6eTzz4c

Nigel Mitchell, and cooking food for Team Sky

fat daddy

rpaton wrote:

Does this look more appetizing than magic powder?

yes, but doesn't mean there isn't a place for magic powders

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWrvVvK5U4k

Dr James Morton, Head of Nutrition at Team Sky explains why protein is so important - and feeds the team SIS magic protein drinks !!!

charlie_potatoes

fat daddy wrote:

rpaton wrote:

Does this look more appetizing than magic powder?

yes, but doesn't mean there isn't a place for magic powders

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWrvVvK5U4k

Dr James Morton, Head of Nutrition at Team Sky explains why protein is so important - and feeds the team SIS magic protein drinks !!!

Hoisted by his own petard.

scott_w1987

fat daddy wrote:

rpaton wrote:

Does this look more appetizing than magic powder?

yes, but doesn't mean there isn't a place for magic powders

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWrvVvK5U4k

Dr James Morton, Head of Nutrition at Team Sky explains why protein is so important - and feeds the team SIS magic protein drinks !!!

rpaton

Yeah , fair enough
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/recreati ... e-cyclist/

charlie_potatoes

So Team Sky are definitely supplementing their diet with real food then.

I might give this a go for a trial period.