Marmotte 2017

DeVlaeminck

I didn't actually suggest riding in "any" group irrespective of pace, I suggested your pace should be slightly uncomfortable because the nature of the course provides for periods of recovery, that it is worth going deeper to stay with a group rather than riding solo and that blowing up at the top of the Galibier would not be a complete disaster given you then have a long recovery but I wouldn't recommend aiming to do so.

I understand you probably took offence at my saying you sound like someone afraid to go deep but I think that's the advice you need based on my experience - I've seen lots of people ride these things too conservatively because they are afraid of blowing up. It's not actually that much diferent to what Davidof has told you just expressed differently. Of course there is nothing wrong with riding it at an easy pace and enjoying the view but you were expressing concern at missing the time cut.

ai_1

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I didn't actually suggest riding in "any" group irrespective of pace, I suggested your pace should be slightly uncomfortable because the nature of the course provides for periods of recovery, that it is worth going deeper to stay with a group rather than riding solo and that blowing up at the top of the Galibier would not be a complete disaster given you then have a long recovery but I wouldn't recommend aiming to do so.

I understand you probably took offence at my saying you sound like someone afraid to go deep but I think that's the advice you need based on my experience - I've seen lots of people ride these things too conservatively because they are afraid of blowing up. It's not actually that much diferent to what Davidof has told you just expressed differently. Of course there is nothing wrong with riding it at an easy pace and enjoying the view but you were expressing concern at missing the time cut.

The quote below is exactly what you said and what I disagree with. End of story.

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Find a group and worry if it's suitably paced when you blow up. Seriously you may have to dig a bit deeper if you want to achieve your target, if you want to enjoy the view then buy a post card, there are 364 other days of the year to do that!

DeVlaeminck

Clearly tongue in cheek which was immediately below and in response to...

Ai_1 wrote:

Yeah, that will be the plan.
As you say, I was a little slow on the sportive a few days ago. I paced it well but it was a windy day plus I spent no more than a handful of kilometers drafting. My predictions for Marmotte assume I'll be riding solo as well, so if I can find suitably paced groups, especially going up the valley, I should gain some time. I'll keep an eye on my HR and so long as it's not extremely hot I'll know how to interpret that. If it is really hot, it may be more difficult, I know that can effect HR.

Not unreasonably I inferred from that that you were happy to ride the valley solo but if you could get in a group that wasn't pushing you hard you'd join. Look, when you get over the Glandon all the fast lads will be long gone, ANY group will be a good group and as Davidof told you you should be getting in whatever group there you can there. If you let wheels go in the valley because you think they are pushing too hard you are making a mistake.

narbs

Anyway, moving on.

We're arriving on the Wednesday before. Got a couple of rides planned but would like to do the Lacets de Montvernier, if only to get some good photos.

Is there a route from Bourg which doesn't effectively involve most of the Marmotte route? Alternatively, id there a good place to drive to an incorporate the Lacets in a loop?

DeVlaeminck

narbs wrote:

Anyway, moving on.

We're arriving on the Wednesday before. Got a couple of rides planned but would like to do the Lacets de Montvernier, if only to get some good photos.

Is there a route from Bourg which doesn't effectively involve most of the Marmotte route? Alternatively, id there a good place to drive to an incorporate the Lacets in a loop?

Maybe park at top of Croix de Fer or Glandon and descend one and climb the other doing the Lacets in the middle, all but the driver can then descend to Bourg.

If you want a longish one Ornon to Valbonnais, take a right at the next village and back to Bourg via the col du Morte, that is nice but for the final run up the valley.

narbs

DeVlaeminck wrote:

narbs wrote:

Anyway, moving on.

We're arriving on the Wednesday before. Got a couple of rides planned but would like to do the Lacets de Montvernier, if only to get some good photos.

Is there a route from Bourg which doesn't effectively involve most of the Marmotte route? Alternatively, id there a good place to drive to an incorporate the Lacets in a loop?

Maybe park at top of Croix de Fer or Glandon and descend one and climb the other doing the Lacets in the middle, all but the driver can then descend to Bourg.

If you want a longish one Ornon to Valbonnais, take a right at the next village and back to Bourg via the col du Morte, that is nice but for the final run up the valley.

Ta - just mapped out the first option, but parking in St Etienne de Cuines and then climbing the Croix de Fer. That would work.

Ornon is on the list, as is up to Barade and back. Would also like to go up to AdH via the Sarenne but might have to save at least one of these for another day.

DeVlaeminck

narbs wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

narbs wrote:

Anyway, moving on.

We're arriving on the Wednesday before. Got a couple of rides planned but would like to do the Lacets de Montvernier, if only to get some good photos.

Is there a route from Bourg which doesn't effectively involve most of the Marmotte route? Alternatively, id there a good place to drive to an incorporate the Lacets in a loop?

Maybe park at top of Croix de Fer or Glandon and descend one and climb the other doing the Lacets in the middle, all but the driver can then descend to Bourg.

If you want a longish one Ornon to Valbonnais, take a right at the next village and back to Bourg via the col du Morte, that is nice but for the final run up the valley.

Ta - just mapped out the first option, but parking in St Etienne de Cuines and then climbing the Croix de Fer. That would work.

Ornon is on the list, as is up to Barade and back. Would also like to go up to AdH via the Sarenne but might have to save at least one of these for another day.

You could park in SEdC and do a CdF climb Glandon descent loop, effectively the same loop but parking up further out, would give you the option of a cafe stop half way, if you want a proper meal that place just next to the Glandon summit is nice in good weather. Sarenne is nice too, it's all nice! Haven't been to Berarde but an easy roll out most of the way to that cafe is a nice way to keep the legs loose the day before the event. Have fun.

Ps The Madeleine is meant to be nice too if you are parking up there - believe there is a road off it links to the lacets?

kaiserpc

We're arriving on the Tuesday before at some point .. and planning the Lacets on Wednesday or Thursday and the Grimpee on Friday (Will be taking it very easy and looking out for good feed / water stops for the Sunday). Getting a bit nervous now .. but I've done just as much training as family life / work / living in the North of Scotland would allow. Just a couple of pounds heavier than I planned, but still lost quite a bit compared to what I was at Christmas. Last long ride (100 miles) this weekend and then taper next week. Good luck everyone! :-)
I last tried the Marmotte 11 years ago and got to the bottom of the Alpe just after the cut off time and with zero energy left and abandoned then. Aiming for just under the cut off this year and then grind up the Alpe.

To confirm, what is the cut off time for the Alpe ... is it 18:15 or 18:30? I've heard conflicting reports

ai_1

@kaiserpc
From what I can see it's 18:15 cut-off
Best of luck. I'll likely be near you on the road!

greg66_tri_v2.0

Ai_1 wrote:

davidof wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

narbs wrote:

It might all go differently on the day, but I think I have a choice of two strategies to aim for.

Maybe you are overthinking this?

As you seem to have a PM just ride to your all day power to the top of the Galibier and make sure you are in groups for the valleys (Maurienne/Romanche). As the above poster said, don't waste too much time at feeds.

I actually don't have a PM. I use virtual power on the turbo via Zwift and a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine. And I've used BestBikeSplit.com to get an idea of my real world performance averages. I've been surprised how accurate and repeatable the data from BBS has been, but obviously it's a big compromise compared to actually having a PM data. I seem to be able to pace myself pretty well on heart rate and perceived effort and I know fairly well what an all day pace feels like.

I've read some of your later posts. You're over thinking it and over worrying.

The Glandon: you'll be buzzing with adrenaline when you arrive at the bottom and so will everyone else. Pacing will go out the window for everyone for 30 mins until you all hit the 9-10% pitches in the trees. So stay calm at the base of the Glandon, let people pass you, and remember the Glandon is a properly long climb.

The descent off the back is technical at the top. If it is hot you may well hear the bang bang of inners blowing off rims under braking. Keep in mind how your tyres are feeling - there's no downside to pulling over and letting some air out.

Telegraphe: again, just ride within yourself. Get to the top of that and you're still not half way done, so there's zero advantage in blasting up it.

Galibier: once you're past Plan Lachet, don't look up. It will only depress you. Chances are by now you'll be suffering, and unless you're also carving through the field, so is everyone around you. Keep an eye out for an actual live marmotte - I saw one a few years ago at this point.

Top of the Galibier: I was completely certain I would then ride to Bourg and pull out. Cramps in my quads, but stretching them made my hamstrings cramp. And vice versa. But the descent is brilliant. Much less technical than the back of the Glandon - good surfaces and good sight lines. And by the time I got to the base of AdH I was ready to give it a go.

AdH: it's going to hurt. Simple as. But by the time you've got that far, you're not going to stop before the finish, right?

It is as much a mental challenge as a physical one. There will be voices that you'll have to keep at bay.

Ps. If someone tells you the night before to swap your 12-25 cassette for a 12-27, it's probably a good idea to listen and do it. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, etc....

narbs

and if someone tells to to swap the 12-27 for a 12-29 they're even more right

itboffin

Good advice oooooold man and yes i was right, as always

Was it 25 or 23?

itboffin

Ps i had a 30t next time and knocked 30 mins of my time in 2013 i also spent​ pretty much the whole time in the 30t

ai_1

Greg66

Thanks for all the info. Much appreciated.
In reality I don't think I'm worrying to much about it. Just planning. And I'll have no trouble revising the plan if things are going surprisingly well on the day. I like strategising and it generally seems to help so where's the down side! But I know it can cone across as someone making a big deal where there needn't be one when its posts on a forum.

I was a little concerned about inner tubes. I have a tendency to drag the brakes a bit on long steep decents unless they're nice and straight- trying to get out of that habit. I've already switched my latex tubes for butyl. Latex isn't as goid with heat. I also run liwer pressures than some but I'll take your advice and pay attention to the tyres.

I usually ride with a 11-28 in the hills. I switched to 11-32 yesterday as I think I might need it. Even if its not essential there's no harm keeping the cadence up on the long climbs. Saves the knees!
I tried it up some 10-16% climbs today and I think I'll be glad to have it.

gavinbay

Classic change in the forecast for next week, look at the temps on Friday and that's in the valley not at altitude where that would be snow!

Though this can all change as so far off - but worth monitoring.

I have friends coming out the Tuesday

Taken from http://www.meteociel.fr/tendances/1900/ ... _alpes.htm

rc856

I was just looking on the accuweather site and it has it
as being in the mid 20's with no rain on Sat and Sun which would suit this Scotsman!!

That's based at Allemont along the road.

Daft question...when I go onto the event website to look at my registration, I see a number in a box.

I'm assuming that's my event number?

Cheers

fenix

Not been to the alps for a long while - but last time i was there I remember dousing the rims with water to cool them down.
No idea if I'd seen a pro doing that or I read it somewhere. Definitely don't overdo the pressures if it's hot.

gavinbay

We'll have a better idea only a couple of days before as then we'll know if it's frontal driven weather (warm then cold fronts) as opposed to local thunderstorms.

I fully expect that forecast above to change.

I only live 25km from the Galibier and can more or less see it from where I live, this morning not a cloud in the sky and now over Izoard way pretty grim from the looks and sounds of things whilst Galibier is not too bad, such are the localised effects.

gavinbay

As I said a few hours ago

GavinBay wrote:

......this morning not a cloud in the sky and now over Izoard way pretty grim from the looks and sounds... ..

And as the weather cleared you can see what the precipitation fell like at altitude, and that's a bit lower than the Galibier !!!!

kaiserpc

Having tried the Marmotte in 35c+ it ain't much fun ... although I'll take over snow any day!! hopefully the forecast isn't as bad as that graph looks ... will be checking it daily for the next week or so :-)

frasermcampbell

Ali 1, I like the denial that you are over thinking it then write a paragraph on inner tubes . The last guys advice is good. This will be my 6 La Marmotte running with times between 7 and 8 hours. From my experience.

- You can ride the route and take pictures and long stops anytime, but this is La Marmotte day so go for it. For sure you will feel crap but 3 hours after finishing you forget all of that.
- If you are concerned about the cut off at the bottom of the alp, then planning to have 1 hour stops is not the way to go. Really think about minimising time at stops, use them to fill up with water and grab food and eat on the bike. You should only consider longer stops if you have blown up (which is not in the plan, right!!)
- switching to a 32 cassette is a good choice. Trust me, you will use it. I would recommend using it early on in the ride. By the time you get to Galibier and for sure ADH you will be pushing squares and wishing for something bigger.
- Start to Glandon...This will be fast, and very busy. Everybody goes into the red here. Be disciplined there is no benefit to burning a match here. Grab a fast group and sit in.
-Glandon climb- ...It is much harder than the average gradiant indicates ( the av is lowre due to some down hills). Again be disciplined as it is easy to get carried away and try to match pace with others . Ignore what everybody else is doing as they are on their own journey. Sit high in your endurance or tempo zone and plan for 2 to 3 hrs of climbing. Avoid crossing your red line. Note, about a quarter of the way up there is a descent after a small hamlet, it finishes with a short and tight dog leg. Get your gearing sorted coming down this last section as it immediately kicks up to 10% after the turn. Lots of people get that wrong and come to a grinding halt. The Glandon food stop will be chaotic. If you are feeling good skip through it and stop for water at the bottom of the valley from the village fountains.
- Glandon descent - it is technical but neutralised so you can take your time. If you want to take a longer break somewhere in this section is the place to do it as your time will stop, but watch the cut off time). I always see lots of crashes at corners (dutch guys racing down it) and tube blow outs on this section. STAY OFF your breaks and enjoy it.
-Valley to Telegraph - You will have lots of group options here. DO NOT try this solo or lead a group as it is a long drag and would be mentally and physically demoralising. I normally go into the red a few times here trying to catch or stay in a group. If the group is too fast then drop off and wait for another one. As long as you are not constantly sitting in the red for long periods then accept that you will need to work hard occasionally to get the group benefit. It is worth it.
-Telegraph climb - Expect to climb for 1 to 2 hours. Again try to sit in your tempo zone. you will feel the fatigue now so even that may become difficult. There is a water stop at the bottom before the village and half way up.
- Galibier climb - it is a killer and everyone is now feeling the fatigue. You can probably forget about training zones now as your focus will be just to make forward progress and you may start to struggle to hit or sustain your higher end zones. It is a long drag for me from Valoire to Plan Lachat (the road is straight as an arrow) and I am almost relieved to hit the switchbacks. Just grind this out. If you have energy then push a little harder once past the car tunnel near the top.
- Galibier descent - Technical for the first 1km and then wide, curving and fast roads. Stay off the breaks (easier to do than on Glandon descent). Again try to get into a group here. It is a long way even if downhill. Once, I had the misfortune to do this solo as I could not catch or stay in a group and it was hard. I wasted a lot of energy and was much slower than other times. Groups normally form about a quarter of the way down. The new temporary road is fun but nasty. Twisty with short climbs. Enjoy this descent as if you have got this far then you will have earned it.
- ADH climb- it is torture and you will suffer like no other time on a bike. First, 4km is steep. It is about SURVIVAL at this point. Just keep the head down and grind.

If we get an extreme weather day (heat) then the pain, discomfort and nausea starts a good bit earlier....

P.S. in all your posts you do not talk about your nutrition. That is the most important part. I have yet to get it right and it kills me on ADH .. Good luck, push it, and enjoy

cougie

Sound advice there. Crazy to even think about food stops when you're chasing a cut off. Get a Bento box on the Bike and cram it with goodies. Keep moving forward. Only stop for fluids. 45 mins of easy cycling will get you a lot further down the road than 45 mins of eating at the side of the road.

When I do Ironman events it's something to eat every 5 miles. Little and often. Scoffing a lot in one go is a bad bad idea.

ai_1

@frasermcampbell & cougie

I'm still confused about this idea that I suggested I was going to take it easy and take long food stops while at the same time worrying about the cut-off. Obviously that's idiotic. I'm concerned I could be cutting it close on the cut-off and therefore can't afford to take food stops. My intention would be to stop for water refills and perhaps grab something to eat on the bike for a change from what I've brought if it can be done quickly, otherwise I plan to ride non-stop. I did mention that if I knew part way that cut-off was definitely not achievable I might back off a bit rather than torturing myself (for a time which would ultimately not be the most important aspect of the ride given I was on track to miss cut-off).

My plan for pacing is pretty close to what frasercampbell outlines above. Except I'll likely err on the side of high endurance pace rather than tempo except on the very steepest sections. This is based on experience. I don't think I could maintain what I consider tempo pace for large portions of the climbs and not pay excessively for it later in the ride - i.e. blow up. Bear in mind that if you are expecting to do this in 7-8hrs you can be a bit more aggressive with your pacing than I can if I expect to be on the road at least 50% longer. My 200km ride a couple of weeks ago included a lot of tempo pace and that's feasible over that duration (around 8hrs) but I really think it would be a mistake for me to dip into what I regard tempo for extended periods early on a ride that will almost certainly take me well over 11hrs and possibly well over 12hrs.

The aspect of pushing myself hard that I disagreed with earlier in the thread was Vlaeminck's suggestion I should do anything required to stay with a group even if it meant blowing up. I'm not going to do something like ride at threshold or above for long periods in the valley in full knowledge I'll blow up on Telegraphie or Galibier. That's just stupid. But, I will of course make serious efforts to get in a group, especially in the valley.

Nutrition: I've done Ironman events of similar duration before with nutrition consisting mostly of gels without any problems. However, I prefer to include real food if possible and since I won't be running I expect I'll be okay with a bit more variety. So, I plan to carry some raw fruit bars (just mashed up raisins, dates and cashew nuts) and a few bananas, as well as some gels. I'll also use some salt tablets, especially if it's hot. I've tried all of this except the salt in training. I've never found salt a problem before except doing an Ironman in high temperatures last summer. If there's convenient food readily accessible on the route I might grab a sandwich, biscuits or some fruit to eat on the bike. What do they normally have on offer? I haven't seen any detail in the event info but I may have missed it.

Incidentally, I noticed some odd errors in the route file I was using to forecast what I'd need to do for a given time. The outline and profile looked correct but it seems to have included an extra 2km of climbing hidden somewhere and significant gradient errors (I'd downloaded it, not generated from a map). Having corrected them, things are looking a lot better. It was giving me about 30mins extra riding to do. I now think I have a very good chance of making the cutoff if conditions are okay.

cougie

Pretty sure you said something about doing it in 8 hours - with a riding time of 7.15 - so that's a whole chunk of time taken eating ?

If you've done IM then you can eat on the bike. Avoid feed stations unless you have to go to them.
Queues. Time off the road. What if they run out of food. Also numpties wobbling in and out. Steer clear of all you can.

Seriously I'd go with all my provisions on board and only have to stop for liquid. That's an extra 45 mins saved.

rpherts

Seeing the "snow line" (the elevation at which rain turns to snow) anything from 2200m upwards for that week. You could be climbing or descending the Galibier in snow!

If there is a forecast of heavy showers and the snow line is that low, would they call the race off?

frasermcampbell

High in your endurance zone is a good target on climbs, tempo on the flats with some short bursts into threshold as required. you will get passed by people early on but hopefully, you will catch and pass them later on. if you feel ok when you get there you can empty yourself on the second half of ADH.(not the first half as then you will blow up - been there and done that the first time leading to an ugly and painful last 1 hour)


feed stations are ok. i tend to carry my own and only stop for water, some coke if I can get it later, and some orange quarters again later when i am getting desperate for a change.
normally they have:

- sports drinks, water (bottles and taps), limited coke as they were rationing this (they did not let me fill my bottle with coke last year but I could take a couple of glasses at the feed station)
- some bars and gels (used to be powerbar, but last year was Etix)
- oranges, bananas, dried fruits
- Gelly sweets - good alt to energy gel
- bread (French baguettes cut up) and i think i have seen some cheese

if coke works as a pick me up then you could leave a couple of bottles at the bottom of ADH climb and collect these on the way up.

rpherts

To be fair Sunday is now looking better, but highs of 6 and 7 degrees respectively in Bourg on Friday and Saturday. :shock:

DeVlaeminck

frasermcampbell wrote:

- some bars and gels (used to be powerbar, but last year was Etix)
- oranges, bananas, dried fruits
- Gelly sweets - good alt to energy gel
- bread (French baguettes cut up) and i think i have seen some cheese

if coke works as a pick me up then you could leave a couple of bottles at the bottom of ADH climb and collect these on the way up.

Those Jelly sweets are delicious, worth sticking a handfull in your pockets.

Lasttime I did it was 2 years ago, the year when they changed the route anyway and it was very hot. They had a mint/menthol energy drink at the feed station in Valloire - if they have it again a word of warning it is absolutely rank.

ai_1

@cougie

No, I never said 7:15 riding time. Add a few hours onto that! My whole point was that I reckoned I was cutting it close for making the cut-off. If I knew I wouldn't make it I was debating backing off a little.

However I just spotted some errors in the route file I was looking at. I downloaded it, didn't generated it myself, and its got some extra distance and climbing included. Not obvious from the map or profile but really makes a difference to the numbers. Now I think I actually have a very good chance of making the cut-off.

Thanks for all the info on food/drink and stops guys!
It'll come in handy.

william39

Hello, got a couple of logistical questions which I can't find answers to elsewhere. I live about 2 hours away from Bourg d'Oisans so will either drive there on the morning or after working on Saturday night and try to get some sleep in the car. How easy is it to find somewhere to park in Bourg d'Oisans and what time to they close the road from the Grenoble direction? I have heard I would need to get there before 6am. Does anyone have experience of registering on the morning? I could drive down and sign up on Thursday to save time but not sure if it is worth it.