Resistance training to supplement Cycling: Poll

24

Comments

  • fat daddy
    fat daddy Posts: 2,605
    86% is aerobic, that will be the sat at 60 kmh going around in circles

    Power to get out the blocks as fast as he can get up to speed and break through the wind resistance will all be anaerobic.

    I expect the shorter sprint disciplines spend even more time in the gym ... Hell ain't no way Chris hoy got his guns doing bike work only
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    fat daddy wrote:
    He was building muscle, big arsed Fast Twitch, powerful muscle .... muscle designed for 4km of high output before dying, muscle that pumps out high but short lived wattage.

    Except that muscle size over 4km is largely irrelevant. A 4k effort is almost exclusively aerobic.

    Which begs the question why Wiggins was in the gym lifting weights with the goal, in his own words, of building muscle ?

    Dunno - but it does kind of highlight the potential folly of seeing someone on the telly pushing weights and then offering it as evidence of nothing in particular.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    fat daddy wrote:
    86% is aerobic, that will be the sat at 60 kmh going around in circles

    Power to get out the blocks as fast as he can get up to speed and break through the wind resistance will all be anaerobic.

    I expect the shorter sprint disciplines spend even more time in the gym ... Hell ain't no way Chris hoy got his guns doing bike work only

    Yeah that's great. So how many of us here specialise in track sprint or 4k IP/TP..??
  • fat daddy
    fat daddy Posts: 2,605
    It's a cycling forum 4K is still cycling, what you think everyone here only does 4 hour rides with cake stop in the middle ? We arnt all you

    21% of people have benefited from supplementary resistance training, so I guess not everyone aspires to just spend in all day in the saddle. And perhaps done of them that do go for the odd sprint finish aspire to be the Green Jersey winner, want to win the sprint in there club, who's heros are Greipel, Kittel, Sagan, Cavendish

    I don't wish to spend my weekends doing 4 hour rides ... I commute to work, I get my kicks from pushing as hard as I can for a mere 6km up hill on the way hobe. I get home drenched in sweat, I can't speak to my wife for the 1st 2 minutes as I am so fapped, my quads are swollen, my glutes are aching from the last sprint ... I hobble for the next hour

    But that's not cycling is it
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    I've no idea what you are talking about, or what point you are trying to make.
  • fat daddy
    fat daddy Posts: 2,605
    That's obvious

    Basically, some people have a use for explosive, anerobic power and benefit from the gym and heavy lifting

    Some people don't have time to put hours in on a bike so use the gym to build strength in between bike sessions
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,346
    Imposter wrote:
    fat daddy wrote:
    86% is aerobic, that will be the sat at 60 kmh going around in circles

    Power to get out the blocks as fast as he can get up to speed and break through the wind resistance will all be anaerobic.

    I expect the shorter sprint disciplines spend even more time in the gym ... Hell ain't no way Chris hoy got his guns doing bike work only

    Yeah that's great. So how many of us here specialise in track sprint or 4k IP/TP..??

    The bottom line Imposter, is that yo have never used resistance training and therefore, despite your reasoned arguments, cannot make a judgement on whether it is potentially beneficial or has provided some benefit (to you).

    The small recurring pattern, is that quite a few have used RT as part of rehabilitation, as a catalyst that cycling alone would not have done so quickly.

    You also need to elaborate on this statement:
    Imposter wrote:
    ...By reading (and attempting to understand) the work of others who have studied the area professionally
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    fat daddy wrote:

    Some people don't have time to put hours in on a bike so use the gym to build strength in between bike sessions

    You seem to be making the assumption that cycling builds strength - which it doesn't really. Very minor gains perhaps.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Pinno wrote:

    The bottom line Imposter, is that yo have never used resistance training and therefore, despite your reasoned arguments, cannot make a judgement on whether it is potentially beneficial or has provided some benefit (to you).

    The small recurring pattern, is that quite a few have used RT as part of rehabilitation, as a catalyst that cycling alone would not have done so quickly.

    Sure - S&C for rehab purposes is absolutely legit, proven, necessary even - I've done that myself a few times when prescribed by a physio. But I didn't think that was the issue. I thought the contentious issue was using weights for performance gain, for which there is little - if any - hard evidence out there. Maybe I misread your OP and missed the rehab bit earlier.
    Pinno wrote:
    You also need to elaborate on this statement:
    Imposter wrote:
    ...By reading (and attempting to understand) the work of others who have studied the area professionally

    Like I said before. If you really want to understand a topic, look over some peer reviewed studies, rather than posting a vague poll on an internet cycling forum.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,346
    Some external links:

    http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/fitness/training/strength-training-really-necessary-125222

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/how-to-strength-train-for-cycling.html

    http://www.thetallcyclist.com/2013/02/myths-about-weight-lifting-and-cycling/

    ...and British Cycling thrown in for good measure:

    https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/bike-kit/article/izn20160113-Ask-the-experts-How-to--Beginner-strength-exercises-for-cyclists-0

    "For improved performance, health benefits and injury prevention, all cyclists should include strength work in their training routine. "
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Sorry, I said peer-reviewed studies (maybe try googling the term), not opinion articles. Never mind, I'm out.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,346
    Imposter wrote:
    Pinno wrote:

    The bottom line Imposter, is that yo have never used resistance training and therefore, despite your reasoned arguments, cannot make a judgement on whether it is potentially beneficial or has provided some benefit (to you).

    The small recurring pattern, is that quite a few have used RT as part of rehabilitation, as a catalyst that cycling alone would not have done so quickly.

    Sure - S&C for rehab purposes is absolutely legit, proven, necessary even - I've done that myself a few times when prescribed by a physio. But I didn't think that was the issue. I thought the contentious issue was using weights for performance gain, for which there is little - if any - hard evidence out there. Maybe I misread your OP and missed the rehab bit earlier.
    Pinno wrote:
    You also need to elaborate on this statement:
    Imposter wrote:
    ...By reading (and attempting to understand) the work of others who have studied the area professionally

    Like I said before. If you really want to understand a topic, look over some peer reviewed studies, rather than posting a vague poll on an internet cycling forum.
    Imposter wrote:
    Pinno wrote:

    The...quickly.

    Sure...earlier.
    Pinno wrote:
    You also need to elaborate on this statement:
    Imposter wrote:
    ...By reading (and attempting to understand) the work of others who have studied the area professionally

    Like I said before. If you really want to understand a topic, look over some peer reviewed studies...

    Provide them then.

    Just a short extract from a Scholarly article:

    "Exercise performance data do not fit this paradigm, however, as they indicate that resistance training or the addition of resistance training to an ongoing endurance exercise regimen, including running or cycling, increases both short and long term endurance capacity in sedentary and trained individuals. "

    ...and:

    "Resistance training also appears to improve lactate threshold in untrained individuals during cycling. These improvements may be linked to the capacity of resistance training to alter myofibre size and contractile properties, adaptations that may increase muscular force production."

    From: Impact of Resistance Training on Endurance Performance
    A New Form of Cross-Training?
    Hirofumi Tanaka , Thomas Swensen
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • svetty
    svetty Posts: 1,904
    @ OP - you clearly feel it of benefit to you. I'm not sure why you seem to be seeking confirmation of this from the wider internet? You will get views both for and against........
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,346
    Svetty wrote:
    @ OP - you clearly feel it of benefit to you. I'm not sure why you seem to be seeking confirmation of this from the wider internet? You will get views both for and against........

    The trend so far is that those who have never tried it have been in the 'against' camp, for some inexplicable reason. This poll has been out of curiosity and was never going to produce any meaningful results.

    Yes, you are right. I have used the gym. It helped accelerate recovery and leg strength in a way that cycling on it's own would not have. I also revisited the gym once I got some miles in and picked up some strains.

    For 5 continuous winters bar the last one, I have done 6-8 weeks of gym work. Mainly core stability and lower back strengthening. In terms of fitness, it had no impact whatsoever but in terms of being a little bit stronger and avoiding injury, it has served me well. 2 weeks ago, I pulled my back out doing something silly on the back of a good period on the bike. I put it down to not going to the gym last winter.

    Once I get past 6 weeks, I find a plateau and then it's time to get back on the bike in earnest. Back in the beginning once the physioterrorists had 'released' me, the leg press, leg curl and the squat machine really accelerated leg strength but had to be coupled with an inordinate amount of stretching but it worked.

    Those who have never considered or refuse to entertain the idea of gym work, cannot possibly comment. The biggest detractor Imposter has so far not produced any of his scholarly and professionally written studies. I'd like to see them.

    The leg strength debate will go on eternally until someone of high standing, perhaps in a professional capacity can add his or her opinion.

    Imposter may have an accident in the future (not that I would want him to) and he may find that the gym is the place to go.

    As an aside, how many cyclists use Turbo Trainers? ...and that is a form of Resistance Training.

    I'll leave it with this picture, which for me is sufficient:

    Pantani.jpg
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • AK_jnr
    AK_jnr Posts: 717
    Guess everyone just ignored my actual evidence of real world gains from the gym. Lol
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,106
    Imposter wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    fat daddy wrote:
    He was building muscle, big arsed Fast Twitch, powerful muscle .... muscle designed for 4km of high output before dying, muscle that pumps out high but short lived wattage.

    Except that muscle size over 4km is largely irrelevant. A 4k effort is almost exclusively aerobic.

    Which begs the question why Wiggins was in the gym lifting weights with the goal, in his own words, of building muscle ?

    Dunno - but it does kind of highlight the potential folly of seeing someone on the telly pushing weights and then offering it as evidence of nothing in particular.


    Hmmm, offering it as evidence ? I think you've spent too long on these threads, I'm asking a question not offering evidence of anything.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,346
    AK_jnr wrote:
    Guess everyone just ignored my actual evidence of real world gains from the gym. Lol

    You didn't need to do all that gym work - it was all in your head. All you have to do is walk up and down stairs a bit.
    Imposter wrote:
    daviesee wrote:
    I don't understand. To maintain the same speed the lower cadence will require a higher gear and more power.
    Using your muscles will build them. The stronger you are, the higher gear you can push when required.

    An example. In Stage 10 of the Vuelta, Chris Froome's average power output was 406W. Do you think he manages that simply by spinning his legs quickly?

    Let's say you might weigh 70kg. On the basis that most of us already have the ability to lift our own bodyweight with each leg (walking up the stairs does precisely that) - and on the basis that a typical mountain stage in the TdF would see the riders pushing a maximum of around 25kg through each pedal stroke - tell me why increasing your leg strength would help?

    25kg is a relatively low force compared to a bodyweight of 70kg. The trick is not to increase strength, the trick is to increase the ability of the aerobic system to repeatedly apply that 25kg force for 20/30/60 minutes or longer.

    Do you see the inherent flaw in the last statement? (underlined).
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,346
    We may not get a reply DeVlaeminck, after all, he said he was out and he still hasn't produced those 'scholarly' articles.

    I think (until I am contradicted) that strength and aerobic fitness is intrinsically linked. Imposter would have you think otherwise and AK_jnr is making it all up. The power output over that distance of Froomedog on that last TT wasn't simply generated by aerobic fitness alone was it?
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • AK_jnr
    AK_jnr Posts: 717
    Just to be let you all know I didnt put the stats up to willy wag as in the grand scheme of things I'm just an average rider but it proves to me at least that it has to be down the gym work as I'm actually cycling less than before.

    Maybe I'm just lucky in that I respond well to it but I will keep doing it and see what further gains can be made.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,346
    AK_jnr wrote:
    Just to be let you all know I didnt put the stats up to willy wag as in the grand scheme of things I'm just an average rider but it proves to me at least that it has to be down the gym work as I'm actually cycling less than before.

    Maybe I'm just lucky in that I respond well to it but I will keep doing it and see what further gains can be made.

    I'm with you, don't worry mate.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • diy
    diy Posts: 6,473
    I think in some camps there can be a reluctance to try anything new. Few people dispute interval training is helpful, but that doesn't fit the "ride your bike more" belief. Ultimately road cycling for any distance is about power to weight. Its a lot easier to get the weight down than the power up and this will keep the skinnies at the front of any group. This can be reinforced by the avg weights user not being particularly cardio fit. So they'd typically get handed there a*se on any moderate ride.

    Either that or its bicep envy. :D I do think the avg. roadie would fair well on a squat rack over and above where they should, given that cycling isn't supposed to build strength.
    Guide to cheap bike lights Turbo Trainer Vids Play list
    Stretching & Workout Vids
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    AK_jnr wrote:
    Just to throw my experience in.
    Since January I have been doing more circuit training and recently heavy lifting in the gym.
    In January I hit 1000 watts for the first time with a 270 watt FTP. I did pretty well in races with those numbers.

    My FTP is now 310 at 70kg (same as before) and yesterday I hit a new peak PB of 1300 watts.
    I'm definitely looking forward to some late season races.

    Also bear in mind I only ride about 2 hours a week with running/football/gym on top.
    I did 3000 miles early in the year though when I was exclusively riding.
    What power meter are you using?
  • AK_jnr
    AK_jnr Posts: 717
    Pi55 off mate. I was waiting for that. Hahaha. But no my power meter hasnt gone out of calibration.

    I suppose I should clarify the FTP gains were made when I was riding more than I am now but its interesting to know that it hasnt dropped since my gains in peak/5 sec/1 min/5 min power.
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    Fair enough. It looked like you were saying you gained 40W on your FTP off 2 hours a week. I thought there might be more to it!

    My take is this: lifting weights is better than doing nothing. What you have to consider (just like you do with any other training) is how it affects the rest of your training. People doing low volume can absorb the fatigue easily and will probably benefit. Pros will see diminshing returns from more and more volume anyway and can handle the fatigue - Marginal gains.

    For normal amateurs there might be practical reasons why gym work makes sense - convenience, motivation, injury rehab - but from a purely fitness point of view time is best spent on the bike if possible. If you can add gym work to what you already do then great but I would question how hard you are working to begin with.
  • dannbodge
    dannbodge Posts: 1,152
    I go to the gym twice a week and do resistance training (Bike and Cross trainer) and weights on my legs. Haven't really noticed a difference in cycling but have noticed general power going up.

    I've noticed more regular cycling actually translates into better cycling more than gym work does.
  • poynedexter
    poynedexter Posts: 283
    i'm 4 weeks into a resistance training routine. 2 free weights sessions a week, based on lower reps and heavier weights. i'm hoping to build progressively through till christmas. i'm doing this as a different approach to other winter routines. i still plan to ride and turbo each week, and so far so good. i'm really enjoying how i feel after each session (apart from week 1 lol)

    i'm doing this because i feel i've come to a wall with training solely on the bike, even with focusing on efforts in my weak areas.

    will it help my peak power, 5 min, 1 min power? time will tell. these are the efforts which are failing me in races.

    purely as an anecdote, a nearby hill which is approx a 4 min effort, i was training on it typically at 300 watts +/- 10 watts (all year), and i'm now hitting 324 watts and 327 watts, and feeling great. this change has happened in the last 4 weeks without structured on bike training (just riding). i wouldn't say its freshness because its a sudden and major shift. i am doing resistance training though? lets see what another month brings.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,346
    ^ Good stuff. Might shut the detractors off momentarily. I keep gym sessions to 8 weeks maximum during the worst months in winter i'e Late December through to Feb.
    I find without a disproportionate increase in work rate at the gym, I plateau out and then it;s time to put more miles in on the bike. (Besides, I get bored and I get fed up of plonkers giving me screwy looks for doing 'funny' exercises and low weight reps of any description. It's not manly enough to do 20 sets of 40 on the leg press - not enough added weight for them).
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • twist83
    twist83 Posts: 761
    I have done resistance/core training previously and found it helped the cycling. Specifically MTB. I didn't last winter. Just cycled.

    I am going to resume that when I am back from Mallorca mid October. See how it goes, Hopefully some benefits will be seen. If anything mobility, flexibility and assistance with injury prevention would be a great outcome.

    Maybe some show muscles as well ;)
  • FatTed
    FatTed Posts: 1,205
    I want to know why Danni King goes to the gym if it is so useless.
  • iPete
    iPete Posts: 6,076
    FatTed wrote:
    I want to know why Danni King goes to the gym if it is so useless.

    Is anyone saying it's useless?

    Basically, if you have 6 hours a week to dedicate to exercise and your goals are bike related, spend 6 hours on the bike. It's probably better than 4 hours bike, 2 hours resistance.

    If bike racing if your full time job then you ride optimum hours + do gym work.

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