Violence at Euro 2016

mrfpb

twist83 wrote:

I have to say my experiences are similar.

The few Football matches I have been to have an atmosphere for the wrong reasons.

The Rugby games completely different. In fact I remember being in Walkabout in Cardiff watching England play and beat Wales surrounded by Welsh fans and not getting beaten senseless either.

that matches my experience growing up in Cardiff. The Five Nations was a celebratory event - especially when the Irish were over. Flags, rugby shirts, drinking and singing but no aggro.

My bro-in-law and nephew were in Bordeaux last weekend for the Wales match, no issues reported at all. Lots of photos on FB of people having a quiet drink and seeing the sights. I hope that Wales - England and Wales-Russia don't kick off in the same way as England-Russia.

slowmart

Bo Duke wrote:

finchy wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Anyone seen the Russian go pro?

Yes. That bloke is really bad at filming.

It's quite clear from that film, other footage, eyewitness accounts and police reports that this was a highly organised, unprovoked and indiscriminate attack on England fans.

Still, I don't suppose anyone on this forum will being rushing to admit they were wrong...

What makes these Russians different is they don't drink. British thugs go out, get tanked up then throw drunken swings. These 'hyper violent' Russians (according to the press) go to find targets for their premeditated, viscous violence.
Big difference, thats Evil.

No, The Russian approach is more effective. The breed of the individual is the same but the passport changes.

Too much media consumption, whats the difference between violent and hyper violent? The fighting was no worse in the UK in the eighties and that was with a much stronger police presence and a less tolerant approach by coppers.

zak3737

Violence is violence, however you look at it.

But from what I've seen, the British idiots are just pissed up louts who suddenly get all mouthy and aggro mad, and want to look as 'ard as possible.
Similarly, from what I've seen, the Russian mob are clearly more intent on seriously hurting people, borne out by the critical cases already in Hospital.
There isnt any way I'd want to be over there at all from here on in, Period. I fear someone will die, and if they do, the Comp should be cancelled, but thats not going to happen, we know that, the Money is too important.

secretsam

Update
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/14/russia-handed-suspended-euro-2016-disqualification-fined-150000-uefa

Bo Duke

Zak3737 wrote:

Violence is violence, however you look at it.

But from what I've seen, the British idiots are just pissed up louts who suddenly get all mouthy and aggro mad, and want to look as 'ard as possible.
Similarly, from what I've seen, the Russian mob are clearly more intent on seriously hurting people, borne out by the critical cases already in Hospital.
There isnt any way I'd want to be over there at all from here on in, Period. I fear someone will die, and if they do, the Comp should be cancelled, but thats not going to happen, we know that, the Money is too important.

That's what I was trying to say, agree with all your points.

Pross

I really fear for tomorrow and Thursday. Whoever planned to have all 4 teams in the group based in such a tiny area is nuts especially given the historic reputation of the England supporters and the ultra nationals that attach themselves to eastern bloc football. I've seen far too many of my fellow countrymen gloating about how well behaved the Welsh supporters have been compared to England's but they have been isolated from the problem elements so far and could easily get dragged in this week.

The potential saving grace is that Lens is small and therefore it will hopefully assist with reducing the potential areas for violence to occur and also I believe that Marseille has quite an issue with Russian gangs at the best of times so that will hopefully be the worst location.

There's absolutely no way I would be going to a game out there though. I wouldn't be worried about the England supporters, they are more like Saturday night drunks around town looking for a willing person to fight them. It's the Russians that scare me as they appear to be indiscriminate and happy to gone beyond leaving a few cuts and bruises on their victims.

Bo Duke

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 82531.html

The Russian authorities may have clamped down on football hooliganism at home, but statements by officials have overwhelmingly ranged from defending the violence to glorying in Russian machismo. The day 49 people were murdered at the Pulse nightclub in Florida, Vladimir Markin, the spokesman for the Russian equivalent of the FBI, was declaring the fault for what happened in Marseilles lay with the French police: “A proper man comes as an amazement to them. They are used to seeing ‘men’ at gay parades,“ was his view of law enforcement.

kingstongraham

mrfpb wrote:

twist83 wrote:

I have to say my experiences are similar.

The few Football matches I have been to have an atmosphere for the wrong reasons.

The Rugby games completely different. In fact I remember being in Walkabout in Cardiff watching England play and beat Wales surrounded by Welsh fans and not getting beaten senseless either.

that matches my experience growing up in Cardiff. The Five Nations was a celebratory event - especially when the Irish were over. Flags, rugby shirts, drinking and singing but no aggro.

My bro-in-law and nephew were in Bordeaux last weekend for the Wales match, no issues reported at all. Lots of photos on FB of people having a quiet drink and seeing the sights. I hope that Wales - England and Wales-Russia don't kick off in the same way as England-Russia.

And I used to go and stand on the Bob Bank at Ninian Park when I was at university. And kept my mouth shut. People conform to social norms.

Pross

No sign of Russians last night so it's back to 'we wasn't doing nothing and the police just started attacking us' excuse again.

Bobbinogs

Pross wrote:

No sign of Russians last night so it's back to 'we wasn't doing nothing and the police just started attacking us' excuse again.

Yeah, although it does look like the police came in all heavy handed which probably didn't help...then again, if there was a large bunch of loud drunken obnoxious idiots trashing my town over the course of a long day, I might be supportive of the Glos Constabulary taking a tough stance.

kingstongraham

Bobbinogs wrote:

Pross wrote:

No sign of Russians last night so it's back to 'we wasn't doing nothing and the police just started attacking us' excuse again.

Yeah, although it does look like the police came in all heavy handed which probably didn't help...then again, if there was a large bunch of loud drunken obnoxious idiots trashing my town over the course of a long day, I might be supportive of the Glos Constabulary taking a tough stance.

I wonder if it was any worse than most British cities on a Saturday night.

tangled_metal

Perhaps no worse than British cities but a lot worse than French cities. Perhaps British drinking culture is a problem in itself that French police are not used to do treat heavy handed as if they're hooligans.

Whatever the reason there is a drinking culture issue among Brits and that only gets worse on holidays or overseas trips for football.

Pross

Don't forget, there was supposed to be a ban on alcohol in public places yesterday so the 'we weren't doing anything wrong' protestation for being driven away whilst drinking in the street is clearly flawed. I'm not going to do what many of many fellow countrymen are doing and gloat or post memes showing impeccably behaved Welsh supporters as for all I know there may have been Welsh supporters included yesterday as to many outside the UK 'English' is a generic term for someone from the UK.

finchy

Pross wrote:

Don't forget, there was supposed to be a ban on alcohol in public places yesterday so the 'we weren't doing anything wrong' protestation for being driven away whilst drinking in the street is clearly flawed. I'm not going to do what many of many fellow countrymen are doing and gloat or post memes showing impeccably behaved Welsh supporters as for all I know there may have been Welsh supporters included yesterday as to many outside the UK 'English' is a generic term for someone from the UK.

I thought it was a ban on sales in bars, not consumption.

Anyway, my take on this:

- The England and Wales fans were totally wrong to sing anti-Russian songs. I've read that there are about 10,000 Russian fans in France for the Euros, of which about 150-200 took part in the attack on England fans. So about 98% of the Russians were there just to watch football matches and should not be subjected to abuse and insults.

- It looks like there was some bad behaviour from the England fans in Lille and I agree with Tangled Metal that the drinking culture in Britain is a massive problem when many Brits go abroad. When I was living in Bratislava, all the ex-pats used to make Thursday their going out night in the city centre, as Ryanair used to fly in 4 planeloads of w*nkers on Friday and Saturday to trash the reputation of the Brits.

- We don't know if every single England fan who got tear gassed by the police was guilty of taking part in trouble. Tear gas isn't exactly the most discriminate weapon in the world and anyone can happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

- Why can't people just go along and enjoy the atmosphere and the football? I've never understood why you'd want to punch someone for supporting a different team.

orraloon

finchy wrote:

- Why can't people just go along and enjoy the atmosphere and the football? I've never understood why you'd want to punch someone for supporting a different team.

Like this you mean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K83BwFsHdn8

kingstongraham

finchy wrote:

Pross wrote:

Don't forget, there was supposed to be a ban on alcohol in public places yesterday so the 'we weren't doing anything wrong' protestation for being driven away whilst drinking in the street is clearly flawed. I'm not going to do what many of many fellow countrymen are doing and gloat or post memes showing impeccably behaved Welsh supporters as for all I know there may have been Welsh supporters included yesterday as to many outside the UK 'English' is a generic term for someone from the UK.

I thought it was a ban on sales in bars, not consumption.

It was the reverse of this. Ban on consumption in public, bars still allowed to sell (in plastic glasses). Basically to try and reduce the number of bottles to be used as missiles and keep people in smaller groups.

Why they couldn't just have a total ban, I don't know.

debeli

KingstonGraham wrote:

It was the reverse of this. Ban on consumption in public, bars still allowed to sell (in plastic glasses). Basically to try and reduce the number of bottles to be used as missiles and keep people in smaller groups.

Why they couldn't just have a total ban, I don't know.

Why might the authorities want to prohibit the consumption of alcohol to coincide with the time period when a group of visiting sports fans with a history of antisocial behaviour was visiting?

The warnings were given, the Police were stood to, restrictions on the serving of alcohol were put in place. That seems quite a good response to me.

People 'caught unawares' by slightly rough or pro-active police behaviour after all that may be in the wrong business.

An absolute prohibition on the sale or consumption of alcohol (in France of all places!) because a few people get cross with men in shirts of another hue seems excessive.

Advise people to behave. Implore them to behave. Put limited restrictions in place. Put a heavy Police presence in place. Take no crap.

As in the OP of this thread, I would not welcome England being chucked out of the competition, but I would accept it. If 'our' fans get naughty again, it would be a just solution.

I write that as a lover of football/soccer.

Pross

finchy wrote:

Anyway, my take on this:

- The England and Wales fans were totally wrong to sing anti-Russian songs. I've read that there are about 10,000 Russian fans in France for the Euros, of which about 150-200 took part in the attack on England fans. So about 98% of the Russians were there just to watch football matches and should not be subjected to abuse and insults.

Whilst I'm prepared to accept that there may have been Welsh supporters among the group that got tear gassed yesterday (there's been no suggestion but there has to be a possibility considering the difficulty for foreigners in differentiating a Welshman from an Englishman if they aren't in team colours) I'm not aware of any reports that Welsh supporters sang anti-Russian songs. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if they do when we play Russia (baiting the opposition supporters and jeering their anthems is the thing I most dislike about football which I otherwise quite enjoy) as supporters of Welsh clubs have been as bad as any over the years. Jeering 'God Save The Queen' is almost certainly going to occur today.

finchy

orraloon wrote:

finchy wrote:

- Why can't people just go along and enjoy the atmosphere and the football? I've never understood why you'd want to punch someone for supporting a different team.

Like this you mean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K83BwFsHdn8

Er, maybe not quite like that.

bendertherobot

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/wales

Perhaps not the best headline choice ever. (If it gets changed it currently reads "Fans gear up for Wales v England"

finchy

Pross wrote:

finchy wrote:

Anyway, my take on this:

- The England and Wales fans were totally wrong to sing anti-Russian songs. I've read that there are about 10,000 Russian fans in France for the Euros, of which about 150-200 took part in the attack on England fans. So about 98% of the Russians were there just to watch football matches and should not be subjected to abuse and insults.

Whilst I'm prepared to accept that there may have been Welsh supporters among the group that got tear gassed yesterday (there's been no suggestion but there has to be a possibility considering the difficulty for foreigners in differentiating a Welshman from an Englishman if they aren't in team colours) I'm not aware of any reports that Welsh supporters sang anti-Russian songs. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if they do when we play Russia (baiting the opposition supporters and jeering their anthems is the thing I most dislike about football which I otherwise quite enjoy) as supporters of Welsh clubs have been as bad as any over the years. Jeering 'God Save The Queen' is almost certainly going to occur today.

From reports I've heard, the England and Wales fans were chanting "We're England and Wales, f*ck off Russia, we're England and Wales".

rick_chasey

Bobbinogs

Pross wrote:

finchy wrote:

Anyway, my take on this:

- The England and Wales fans were totally wrong to sing anti-Russian songs. I've read that there are about 10,000 Russian fans in France for the Euros, of which about 150-200 took part in the attack on England fans. So about 98% of the Russians were there just to watch football matches and should not be subjected to abuse and insults.

Whilst I'm prepared to accept that there may have been Welsh supporters among the group that got tear gassed yesterday (there's been no suggestion but there has to be a possibility considering the difficulty for foreigners in differentiating a Welshman from an Englishman if they aren't in team colours) I'm not aware of any reports that Welsh supporters sang anti-Russian songs. ...

The most accurate way to determine that would be to ask yourself, was that singing in tune (and with a fair degree of sonorous baritone) or not?

pblakeney

bendertherobot wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/wales

Perhaps not the best headline choice ever. (If it gets changed it currently reads "Fans gear up for Wales v England"

Well predicted.

bendertherobot

I didn't whinge. But someone clearly did. The standard of headline drafting appears to be a bit crap at the moment. Without entering into the England Wales debate above, the main headline (and indeed text) cited Britons causing trouble last week. I share the view that it's simply not possible to crow too much about this a Welshman as the chances of the soul crew not partaking at some point are quite slim.

finchy

Rick Chasey wrote:

I was under the impression that the Wilson and Kelling essay has been pretty much debunked. And Rick, I think you need to get your phone on the charger, pronto.

Pross

Bobbinogs wrote:

Pross wrote:

finchy wrote:

Anyway, my take on this:

- The England and Wales fans were totally wrong to sing anti-Russian songs. I've read that there are about 10,000 Russian fans in France for the Euros, of which about 150-200 took part in the attack on England fans. So about 98% of the Russians were there just to watch football matches and should not be subjected to abuse and insults.

Whilst I'm prepared to accept that there may have been Welsh supporters among the group that got tear gassed yesterday (there's been no suggestion but there has to be a possibility considering the difficulty for foreigners in differentiating a Welshman from an Englishman if they aren't in team colours) I'm not aware of any reports that Welsh supporters sang anti-Russian songs. ...

The most accurate way to determine that would be to ask yourself, was that singing in tune (and with a fair degree of sonorous baritone) or not?

(although it's the bottom basses that give the quality of tone not baritones - I know this as I sing bottom base!)

gaffer_slow

orraloon wrote:

finchy wrote:

- Why can't people just go along and enjoy the atmosphere and the football? I've never understood why you'd want to punch someone for supporting a different team.

Like this you mean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K83BwFsHdn8

disgusting behaviour. ban these scum from traveling and chuck the national teams out of the competition.

ballysmate

Pross wrote:

finchy wrote:

Anyway, my take on this:

- The England and Wales fans were totally wrong to sing anti-Russian songs. I've read that there are about 10,000 Russian fans in France for the Euros, of which about 150-200 took part in the attack on England fans. So about 98% of the Russians were there just to watch football matches and should not be subjected to abuse and insults.

Whilst I'm prepared to accept that there may have been Welsh supporters among the group that got tear gassed yesterday (there's been no suggestion but there has to be a possibility considering the difficulty for foreigners in differentiating a Welshman from an Englishman if they aren't in team colours) I'm not aware of any reports that Welsh supporters sang anti-Russian songs. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if they do when we play Russia (baiting the opposition supporters and jeering their anthems is the thing I most dislike about football which I otherwise quite enjoy) as supporters of Welsh clubs have been as bad as any over the years. Jeering 'God Save The Queen' is almost certainly going to occur today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/v ... Lille.html

ballysmate

Footy fans classy as ever.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... sters.html