Violence at Euro 2016

debeli

The observation I was making (wordily and badly) in my OP included the implication that this is a minority. I am a football fan; a soccer fan as we said in my youth, before the term was oddly outlawed.

It is not the majority; it is the minority - egged on by the slightly larger minority who swagger and drink and 'take over' pavement cafes and get 'terroitorial' and display their impressive bellies by going shirtless and taunt and defy the authorities.

They may not fight, they may (despite their gesturing, shouting and taunting) just be very unfortunate victims caught up in the melee...

But they add to the ugliness and the unpleasantness. They are the slightly grubby side of England that was so excewllently personified in that cowardly circus grotesque Barry Rogerson (sp?) at the North East derby some years ago, when he masked up and punched a horse - later claiming that the mask was because the recent loss of a tooth meant that it hurt to breathe in cold air.... Too tragically stupid to see how absurd that sounded.

I do not condemn the majority. I do condemn the fighters and I do condemn those who seem to egg them on, fuelled by beer.

finchy

mamba80 wrote:

finchy wrote:

verylonglegs wrote:

Save your time Finchy, some people will only see what they want to see.

You're probably right. It just annoys me when innocent people have almost certainly been violently attacked and you get the attitudes demonstrated on here. I wonder what they'd be saying if it was somebody they cared about who'd been beaten up.

myself and my then GF were attacked in stockholm by english thugs (she was a nurse and i d gone to her work to walk her home as she was terrified to use a bus or metro - so yes i have zero time for the so called english innocent fan, they behave in the same way now as they always have.
they taunt, smash things up, get p1ssed and then feign innocence when either rival fans get involved or they get charged by CRS and teargas.

I'm sorry to hear what happened to you and your girlfriend, but that does NOT mean that someone who goes to watch a football match and has no intention whatsoever of getting involved in violence deserves to be attacked.

gaffer_slow

Some of this thread reads like a bunch of people on a motoring forum talking about cyclists.
In group, out group, behaviour of individuals being used to tar the entire group.

Why is a pitch invasion in rugby accepted, but in football it is "disgusting scenes"? It is simply class prejudice.
Class is Colour in the UK, and prejudice and discrimination is even more deep rooted than it is in the South of the US (vis a vis race).

I am (albeit an unenthusiastic) "Remainer", but when i heard the English fans chanting "Fuck off Europe, we're all voting out" I chuckled. 99% are just looking for a good time, you might not share their taste for "a good time" but as long as it is non violent you shouldn't judge.

coopster_the_1st

gaffer_slow wrote:

Why is a pitch invasion in rugby accepted, but in football it is "disgusting scenes"? It is simply class prejudice.
Class is Colour in the UK, and prejudice and discrimination is even more deep rooted than it is in the South of the US (vis a vis race).

There is a huge difference between Rugby and football and it is not class but the actions of those that attend. A pitch invasion is accepted in Rugby because it celebratory action and does not have the tribal warfare that a pitch invasion in football has. Rugby fans are not segregated, they can drink alcohol in the ground during the match. And there is no trouble between the fans in this set-up.

You only have to look at the Rugby World Cup hosted in the UK last year so see the huge differences between the fans of both sports. Looks at how the South African fans congratulated the Japanese fans when Japan beat South Africa. There is no comparison between the fans of each sport. Bring the class system into it makes you look very, very silly!

I'm surprised this needs to be pointed out to you!

Frank the tank

Not read the entire thread so forgive me if this point has been made previously.

I don't see why the team should be eliminated if the hoolies kick off. The idiot element from an opposing nation could deliberately draw English morons into a ruck with the sole purpose of getting England eliminated out of the tournament which would be totally unfair. After all I'm sure the England camp don't endorse thuggish behaviour.

kingstongraham

gaffer_slow wrote:

Why is a pitch invasion in rugby accepted, but in football it is "disgusting scenes"? It is simply class prejudice.
Class is Colour in the UK, and prejudice and discrimination is even more deep rooted than it is in the South of the US (vis a vis race).

The threat of violence is accepted as a part of watching football - if you wear the wrong shirt in the wrong part of the ground, it is accepted that this is "provocation". Not the case for rugby. I don't see that as a class thing.

craigus89

Frank the tank wrote:

Not read the entire thread so forgive me if this point has been made previously.

I don't see why the team should be eliminated if the hoolies kick off. The idiot element from an opposing nation could deliberately draw English morons into a ruck with the sole purpose of getting England eliminated out of the tournament which would be totally unfair. After all I'm sure the England camp don't endorse thuggish behaviour.

Of course it isn't the right answer. It is a typical knee-jerk reaction by UEFA trying to threaten the teams in the hopes it will do something to quell the trouble (as if these guys getting involved really give a flying **** about the football) when a lot of the blame lies with them and their organisation and complete lack of proper stewarding.

Let's be clear though, there have been something like 8 separate nations fans involved in violence so far at this tournament. The way things are reported is the typical "Look at these horrible English thugs fighting everyone". I'm not condoning it of course, but these things are often sensationalised due to the reputation of English fans.

gaffer_slow

the vast majority of England fans are not there for violence, and as you said there is just as much alcohol driven rowdiness amongst rugby fans. a small percentage of cyclists piss motorists off with the way they behave "like they are entitled / own the roads" and it is clearly objectionable to tar all cyclists with the same brush. There are tens of thousands of English fans at the Euros and it doesn't take more than 0.05% of them to kick off a major disturbance.

And when football fans pitch invade, similarly only a small percentage are violent. I will admit that the small percentage thuggish element is particular to football - but i remember feeling pretty intimidated around boozed up rugger buggers at university.

bompington

gaffer_slow wrote:

the vast majority of England fans are not there for violence, and as you said there is just as much alcohol driven rowdiness amongst rugby fans. a small percentage of cyclists wee-wee motorists off with the way they behave "like they are entitled / own the roads" and it is clearly objectionable to tar all cyclists with the same brush. There are tens of thousands of English fans at the Euros and it doesn't take more than 0.05% of them to kick off a major disturbance.

And when football fans pitch invade, similarly only a small percentage are violent. I will admit that the small percentage thuggish element is particular to football - but i remember feeling pretty intimidated around boozed up rugger buggers at university.

This is a little bit like someone continuing to say "but cyclists kill an average of 0.3 pedestrians a year, and some of them jump red lights" whenever anyone mentions the thousands of people killed by car drivers.

finchy

Interesting article for anyone who speaks French here.

pblakeney

Craigus89 wrote:

Let's be clear though, there have been something like 8 separate nations fans involved in violence so far at this tournament. The way things are reported is the typical "Look at these horrible English thugs fighting everyone". I'm not condoning it of course, but these things are often sensationalised due to the reputation of English fans.

There is a lot of thruth in that.
However, there does always appear to be the one common denominator.

orraloon

finchy wrote:

Interesting article for anyone who speaks French here.

My French is just about up to following this article.

Summarising, move over old school English lagered up hoolies, there's a new team in town.

"from Eastern countries, Russia and Poland principally; these are people who practice combat sports, train daily. Don't take drugs, don't drink, they have an ascetic way of life.."

Fat Les and his team have no chance.

Matthewfalle

Hyper violent and hyper rapid, according to les flics.

Fat Les is going down.

dodgy

A few friends of mine are over there, they say that one day an 'army' of Russians with MMA gloves and gum-guards formed a pincer movement around a town square and kicked the living shit out of everyone, including women and kids.

finchy

Ballysmate wrote:

finchy wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

And it's not like the rest of the fans call them out on it. They just rub shoulders with them and pretend they're not doing it.

What are they meant to do? Go and tell a gang of thugs to please behave themselves a bit better?

Perhaps they could turn on them and give them a good kicking?

Fans do help the police and stewards by pointing out troublemakers.

Yeah, but that's easier inside the ground. Rick's talking about what's going on in the roads and pubs and that's a bit more difficult to report. To be honest, I sympathise with him having to put up with that crap, but it still shouldn't serve as a basis to form prejudice against football fans in general.

finchy

dodgy wrote:

A few friends of mine are over there, they say that one day an 'army' of Russians with MMA gloves and gum-guards formed a pincer movement around a town square and kicked the living shoot out of everyone, including women and kids.

Yes, I've read a few French eyewitness reports as well saying that women and children weren't spared. Still, I'm sure that they were all mindless thugs. :roll:

gaffer_slow

Woman and Children are the worst mindless thugs i have every met!1!

Also "English Football Hooligans", is an easy quick highline story for our News-As-Enterainment media, on reflection it does seem more likely than highly organize barbarity is behind it - likely with Neo Nazi elements considering some of the former Soviet Block politics.

dodgy

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... are_btn_tw

Moscow football official to violent fans: well done lads, keep it up!

orraloon

Fancy going to the World Cup in Russia 2018? :shock:

drlodge

In my view, a significant minority of so called fans are simply thugs. In the same way the BBC calls IS "so called Islamic State", they should refer to football fans as "so called fans". Fans they are not.

I took my son to Chelsea a couple of times in a family enclosure and was aghast at the amount of shouting and frankly horrendous language. And if that's the best it gets, heaven knows that its like when alcohol is added to people just craving to "have a go". Glad I have nothing to do with these animals.

zak3737

In its best form, I love a good game of football, but tbh, these days, I'm more & more cynical of absolutely everything about football.......
1. More often than not, a game is won or lost on a bad decision, or an act of cheating, simple as.
A feigned foul/injury that a Ref is conned by, a pulled shirt that goes unnoticed/unpunished, an assault/bear hug in the area,
the list goes on & on.....
2. The Fans. The language at most games is bordering on downright offensive. I can swear with the best of them with the lads, but when some idiot sat behind you is spouting and spitting filth for 90mins, its somewhere I dont want to be.
2. The Fans.....again. Trouble, or the potential for it. Home or abroad, Football just brings out something Tribal in the louts that follow it, or should I say 'some' of them. Chelsea, Man U, Man City, Millwall,Spartak, every Club has 'em.
I simply dont get it.
4. The Money.........all of us with Sky, me included, are simply pouring money into Football, and in particular the pockets of players & Agents, who quite frankly, without football, would struggle to earn £40k/year let alone per week. And thats small change for a lot of them. Its obscene.
And what do a vast majority of them do with it ? Cars, more cars........and Tattoo's.......LOTS of Tattoo's.
Oh, and Hairdo's.........
& quite possibly, Acting lessons. (see Point 1)
5 Corruption : Managers/ Bungs/ Agents/ FIFA........World Cups being awarded to Russia/Qatar........the whole game is rotten to the core. Period.

Meanwhile.........England beat Australia in Brisbane, in a game without trouble, by players who do put their body on the line, for a 'reasonable' Salary, and all while the Fans drink together and no-one gets stabbed or any Chairs get thrown.......

*shakes head"

finchy

Rugby has its own problems. Doping being the main one.

craigus89

Typical that this would get turned into a "reasons why I hate football" thread. You can enjoy more than one sport you know.

I'm pretty plugged in on all the coverage surrounding this tournament and the more I am hearing is that this is largely being started by Russian's, local 'ultras' (who are hardcore supporters, somewhere between season ticket holders and the old English firms) and local youths who are targeting the traveling fans.

What is interesting is that Russia and a lot of Eastern European countries are where we were in the 80's when it comes to hooliganism, but as has been said, they are a bit more serious about it.

coopster_the_1st

finchy wrote:

Rugby has its own problems. Doping being the main one.

That may be so but are you saying football does not? With the money involved? And you raise your point a cycling forum which is likely to have the most knowledge of the influence of doping in sport?

craigus89

For anyone who is interested, a journo who was there. It's quite a balanced article.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/ ... -1.2682005

capt_slog

I've been looking at some of the footage of the violence between the so-called fans after I heard someone on the radio talking about "defending themselves".

From the videos it's difficult to see who is fighting who. But one thing I'm sure of is that anyone who is throwing anything 30 ft or so at someone else is NOT defending themselves. They might be retaliating or getting even, but if I was under attack I'd be out of there bloody sharpish and legging it back to the hotel (and perhaps thence the airport).

What I wouldn't be doing, is standing there with my shirt off shouting sh1t at the opposition. If you are at a distance and chucking stuff, why the hell would it not be easier to walk away?

finchy

Coopster the 1st wrote:

finchy wrote:

Rugby has its own problems. Doping being the main one.

That may be so but are you saying football does not? With the money involved? And you raise your point a cycling forum which is likely to have the most knowledge of the influence of doping in sport?

I'm just saying that there's no such thing as some pure, whiter-than-white sport. Every sport has its problems which have to be dealt with in their own way. Cycling, football, rugby, whatever. Cheating is rife in so many sports, as is corruption and, in many contact sports, violence. Football attracts some mindless thugs, possibly because of the game's popularity and the ease with which hooligans can evade the police. It might even be that getting one over on the police is part of the "fun". If football didn't exist, they'd simply follow a different sport and spoil things for the genuine fans of that sport instead.

I speak as a football fan who has been attacked twice - the first time it was 2 vs 1 and the second time it was 5 vs 2. Luckily, I'm a big lad and managed to get out of those situations unscathed, but they were generally scary, so to read some of the comments on this thread really p1sses me off. If I had been seriously hurt and ended up in the press because of it, no doubt some of the people on here would have taken one look at me (6'3", pretty fit body, shaved head - although that's due to my hair's lack of sticking power rather than a choice on my part) and decided I'd brought it on myself.

finchy

Capt Slog wrote:

From the videos it's difficult to see who is fighting who. But one thing I'm sure of is that anyone who is throwing anything 30 ft or so at someone else is NOT defending themselves. They might be retaliating or getting even, but if I was under attack I'd be out of there bloody sharpish and legging it back to the hotel (and perhaps thence the airport).

What I wouldn't be doing, is standing there with my shirt off shouting sh1t at the opposition. If you are at a distance and chucking stuff, why the hell would it not be easier to walk away?

Depends on the situation. Ever been surrounded or backed into a corner? I have, and the only thing you can do in that situation (other than get your head kicked in) is to stand and fight. Also, if there's a large crowd, it's best not to have them stampeding and some of the old continental towns have VERY narrow streets (I don't know about Marseille, never having been there).

Having said that, I'd imagine that a lot of the throwing things back at the local French hooligans was more about pride than anything else. Hopefully police forces will be able to get a grip on this situation. With modern surveillance methods and the Internet, at least some thugs should get caught and imprisoned. These pr1cks can't be allowed to take football back to its darkest days.

crescent

Zak3737 wrote:

In its best form, I love a good game of football, but tbh, these days, I'm more & more cynical of absolutely everything about football.......
1. More often than not, a game is won or lost on a bad decision, or an act of cheating, simple as.
A feigned foul/injury that a Ref is conned by, a pulled shirt that goes unnoticed/unpunished, an assault/bear hug in the area,
the list goes on & on.....
2. The Fans. The language at most games is bordering on downright offensive. I can swear with the best of them with the lads, but when some idiot sat behind you is spouting and spitting filth for 90mins, its somewhere I dont want to be.
2. The Fans.....again. Trouble, or the potential for it. Home or abroad, Football just brings out something Tribal in the louts that follow it, or should I say 'some' of them. Chelsea, Man U, Man City, Millwall,Spartak, every Club has 'em.
I simply dont get it.
4. The Money.........all of us with Sky, me included, are simply pouring money into Football, and in particular the pockets of players & Agents, who quite frankly, without football, would struggle to earn £40k/year let alone per week. And thats small change for a lot of them. Its obscene.
And what do a vast majority of them do with it ? Cars, more cars........and Tattoo's.......LOTS of Tattoo's.
Oh, and Hairdo's.........
& quite possibly, Acting lessons. (see Point 1)
5 Corruption : Managers/ Bungs/ Agents/ FIFA........World Cups being awarded to Russia/Qatar........the whole game is rotten to the core. Period.

Meanwhile.........England beat Australia in Brisbane, in a game without trouble, by players who do put their body on the line, for a 'reasonable' Salary, and all while the Fans drink together and no-one gets stabbed or any Chairs get thrown.......

*shakes head"

This^^^, and all the billionaires buying up clubs. I'm not sure why they do it and I'm not interested enough to find out but something feels very wrong about it all and I'm sure there will be sinister undertones to it all.

I still think the armchair fan will be the downfall of football. I think there will come a tipping point where people just say f*** it and stop paying their overpriced Sky subscription and the level of investment by them will reduce.I lost any interest I had in football some years ago for most of the reasons listed above. The language thing in particular is an issue for me. I can swear with the best of them in certain circles, but also know when it is appropriate not to i.e. in public. You could argue that you have the choice not to attend a football ground if the language offends you but it is also prevalent at games in our local park - organised amateur games I mean, not kids having a kick around. Essentially, this is a public space with two football pitches but also the usual footpaths, swings etc nearby where people should be able to go about their business without having their ears assaulted by foul mouthed tirades. If you walked down the street effing and blinding at the top of your voice you would probably be arrested, just walking onto a football pitch should not make the same behaviour somehow acceptable.

Lookyhere

finchy wrote:

Capt Slog wrote:

From the videos it's difficult to see who is fighting who. But one thing I'm sure of is that anyone who is throwing anything 30 ft or so at someone else is NOT defending themselves. They might be retaliating or getting even, but if I was under attack I'd be out of there bloody sharpish and legging it back to the hotel (and perhaps thence the airport).

What I wouldn't be doing, is standing there with my shirt off shouting sh1t at the opposition. If you are at a distance and chucking stuff, why the hell would it not be easier to walk away?

Depends on the situation. Ever been surrounded or backed into a corner? I have, and the only thing you can do in that situation (other than get your head kicked in) is to stand and fight. Also, if there's a large crowd, it's best not to have them stampeding and some of the old continental towns have VERY narrow streets (I don't know about Marseille, never having been there).

Having said that, I'd imagine that a lot of the throwing things back at the local French hooligans was more about pride than anything else. Hopefully police forces will be able to get a grip on this situation. With modern surveillance methods and the Internet, at least some thugs should get caught and imprisoned. These pr1cks can't be allowed to take football back to its darkest days.

Fly with the crows... expect to get shot and no sympathy.

ah i see, they are french Hooligans and our fun loving innocent footie fans threw things back at them out of "Pride" ffs.