French ban Disc brakes

markhewitt1978

I think marquee events like those are a distraction anyway. When the likes of Ride London starts banning disc brakes, then we have a problem.

ugo.santalucia

markhewitt1978 wrote:

I think marquee events like those are a distraction anyway. When the likes of Ride London starts banning disc brakes, then we have a problem.

Luckily it seems the Brits have a bit more sense and if you read the comments at the bottom of the article, you realise that most people seem to think banning a certain type of bicycle as a form of snobbery is unacceptable (although the logistics argument stacks up)

http://singletrackworld.com/2016/04/fat ... challenge/

BenderRodriguez

markhewitt1978 wrote:

I think marquee events like those are a distraction anyway. When the likes of Ride London starts banning disc brakes, then we have a problem.

Yes, it will be interesting to see how organisers of events like that will interpret the UCI's decision.

What people have to remember is that events like the l'Etape are, to all intents and purposes, races, with a final classification, podiums, prizes and drug testing. Events such as the l’Ariégeoise cyclesportive are even a part of the UCI's 'Golden bike' series, so it would be amazing if these were not covered by the UCI's regulations, and I expect other organisers of events in the series will also fall in line with this decision.

Given the above, that the FFC have banned disc brakes from events like l'Etape and l’Ariégeoise it is no more of a surprise, or is any less reasonable, than it is for British Cycling to have banned the use of discs in road races in the UK.

Currently UCI and BC do not permit the use of disc brakes on road bikes and UCI are currently investigating their use in the future. Scottish Cycling generally align to both UCI and British Cycling rules and we agree with the rationale behind not allowing this piece of equipment. After consultation with BC and some of our Senior Commissaires the Scottish Cycling Road and Track Events Commission have decided until further notice that ‘no disk brakes should be used in a road race, closed circuit race and time trials in Scotland. We will continue to monitor the responses from UCI and British Cycling in regards to this matter.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/scotl ... entering-0

dabber

I can see this causing problems with some of the smaller French sportives especially if the organisers don't make the new ruling very clear in advance. I looked on the list of effected sportives and the one that I've done for the last two years (La Velotoise) and plan to do again this year are on the list.

It doesn't effect me personally though.

BenderRodriguez

ugo.santalucia wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Luckily it seems the Brits have a bit more sense

British cycling has banned the use of disc brakes in road and circuit races, and in the French context events such as the l'Etape and l’Ariégeoise are also races, and are even held under the auspices of the UCI...

BenderRodriguez

Dabber wrote:

I can see this causing problems with some of the smaller French sportives...

They could probably side step this issue by calling them 'randos', without time rankings or prize lists.

ugo.santalucia

I am confident organisers of events like Ride London will not be so daft as to start playing the banning card, as it is not in their interest to do so.

London should start by banning diesel (non commercial) vehicles from its roads, which is a much greather hazard to public health than disc brakes will ever be. Then they can address the "lorries in zone 1" situation if they have spare time and budget.
Any spare time, the London Assembly can attempt to cut their wrists with a disc rotor and realise how bloody hard it is to attempt suicide with the wrong tools!

dabber

BenderRodriguez wrote:

Dabber wrote:

I can see this causing problems with some of the smaller French sportives...

They could probably side step this issue by calling them 'randos', without time rankings or prize lists.

Possibly but from what I've seen of "La Velotoise" (as just an example) there are some pretty serious riders (French MTB champ etc) who are very competitive and can't see that being an attraction to them.

BenderRodriguez

Dabber wrote:

from what I've seen of "La Velotoise" (as just an example) there are some pretty serious riders (French MTB champ etc) who are very competitive and can't see that being an attraction to them.

There's the rub. These events are essentially races, and disc brakes are banned in races, be these British chippers, top-tier UCI events or French mass participation races.

ugo.santalucia

BenderRodriguez wrote:

Dabber wrote:

from what I've seen of "La Velotoise" (as just an example) there are some pretty serious riders (French MTB champ etc) who are very competitive and can't see that being an attraction to them.

There's the rub. These events are essentially races, and disc brakes are banned in races, be these British chippers, top-tier UCI events or French mass participation races.

The problem is that when you have thousands of riders, it is no longer a race. The first rider sets off minutes before the last, how can that be a race? It is only a race for the front end, the rest are doing a timed ride = sportive, hence my suggestion to divide it into two portions makes sense.

It is 100% the same thing as a big marathon... the race is only at the front

marcusjb

Presumably discs are banned in the Tour of Cambridgeshire as well as that is part of the UCI Gran Fondo series?

BenderRodriguez

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The problem is that when you have thousands of riders, it is no longer a race...
It is 100% the same thing as a big marathon... the race is only at the front

If you enter a race, then you are bound to follow the rules of the race, even if you aren't competitive enough to get very high in the final classification.

I wonder if the organisers would also be willing to allow those not in contention for the podium to ignore all the other rules of entry as well? Perhaps those outside the top 100 could use tri-bars, not bother with a helmet and use Epo as well.

ugo.santalucia

BenderRodriguez wrote:

I wonder if the organisers would also be willing to allow those not in contention for the podium to ignore all the other rules of entry as well? Perhaps those outside the top 100 could use tri-bars, not bother with a helmet and use Epo as well.

The thing is that if you are not even allowed to compete, as you start 10 minutes after, then it is no longer a race, no matter how strong or motivated you are... not sure how they are not able to put a barrier between the first few hundreds who compete (and need to qualify to be there) and the rest of the folks who don't qualify and don't race (no matter what they think).
As for the EPO comment, of course you are, IF there is an antidoping, it is for the top athletes, they will never test you, Bender Rodriguez... which in practice means do as you like, as it's irrelevant... go ahead and dope, mate...

paul2718

RideLondon have a clear exposition of the bikes that are permissible/forbidden. See http://lmfiles.realbuzz.com/Images/27%2 ... Cycles.pdf although this file hasn't been updated from last year so things may change. No mention of brakes other than quantity.

The RL100 specifically isn't a race and isn't run to BC or UCI regulations, so it's up to the organisers. The Tour of Cambridgeshire however is run to UCI technical regulations, as pointed out in its manual, and therefore disc brakes weren't permitted last year and (presumably) aren't going to be permitted this year.

Paul

Alex99

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Only a small minority of folks who enter the Etape do it as a race. What they could do is to allow those to start first, using UCI allowed bikes, then the rest start in a second wave and use what they like... tricycles, disc brakes, fat bikes, recumbent or high wheels...

This way they can show to be inclusive, rather than exclusive and still keep the "race" UCI legal

Problem solved, leave it to the Italians to sort things... :-)

This is a strage decision. I rode the etape in 2014. There were a few tandems and one guy rode it on a Raleigh Chopper. I guess that's all fine.

cycleclinic

Oh dear. I suppose then those doing the PR sportive can't use an MTB or modern CX bike then. They all have disc brakes and made up 50% of the field last year. Well a big proportion of the field anyway.

Silly French. How many accidents have there actually been that can be attributed to disc brakes in mass start events. Has one actually happened and been determined to be caused by disc brakes or a serious injury caused by a rotor. A small burn does not count. Road rash hurts more. I think it is more over zealous application of health and safety or should I say smeltch and wafey.

If brits stopped going to these continental events then the numbers would halve for some of them. Federations beware. Disc brakes are popular here and little is going to change that and we like riding on the continent in events. Ban disc brake and many brits will just not bother riding in continental events and that is not good for the events profit margins. We have plenty of our own events on home turf in the beautiful british weather to keep us entertained.

BenderRodriguez

thecycleclinic wrote:

Silly French.

Presumably you think that British Cycling, who have banned disc brakes in road and circuit races, and the organisers of events run under UCI technical regulations, such as the Tour of Cambridgeshire (see Paul's post above) are also 'silly'?

This move has simply removed an anomaly.

1) Disc brakes have never been sanctioned for use in competitive mass-start road races.

2) In the French context sportives effectively are massed start competitive road races.

3) The UCI has set a precedent and the FFC has responded appropriately.

The only grey area now remaining relates to events that are specifically NOT competitive events, with no rankings, points, podiums, prize lists or dope tests, such as British sportives, unless they are run under UCI technical regulations.

If you disagree with the ban, your real beef should be with the UCI, not the FFC, who are duty bound to follow the logic, flawed or not, of the UCI's decision, given that Fench sportives are, to all practical purposes, races.

thecycleclinic wrote:

If brits stopped going to these continental events then the numbers would halve for some of them... Ban disc brake and many brits will just not bother riding in continental events and that is not good for the events profit margins.

I would say that 'half' is vast exaggeration. Whatever, for events like the Marmotte and l'Etape the number of over-subscriptions would fill the spaces left by 'Brits with discs' many times over.

fatdaz

BenderRodriguez wrote:

If you enter a race, then you are bound to follow the rules of the race, even if you aren't competitive enough to get very high in the final classification.

Absolutely and places for the Etape sold out months ago so everybody who has entered did so when disc brakes were allowed.

Having done etapes before and being signed up again for this year I get multiple emails from them about various things. They haven't yet contacted me to say I can't use disc brakes

ugo.santalucia

fatdaz wrote:

BenderRodriguez wrote:

If you enter a race, then you are bound to follow the rules of the race, even if you aren't competitive enough to get very high in the final classification.

Absolutely and places for the Etape sold out months ago so everybody who has entered did so when disc brakes were allowed.

Having done etapes before and being signed up again for this year I get multiple emails from them about various things. They haven't yet contacted me to say I can't use disc brakes

It will probably be one of those things like the brethalizer... nobody really carries one in the car in France and I am pretty sure you will be allowed with discs, despite the propaganda

BenderRodriguez

fatdaz wrote:

BenderRodriguez wrote:

If you enter a race, then you are bound to follow the rules of the race, even if you aren't competitive enough to get very high in the final classification.

Absolutely and places for the Etape sold out months ago so everybody who has entered did so when disc brakes were allowed.

When signing up they also agreed with the terms and conditions which state that the organisers are at liberty to change the route, exclude any riders from taking part for whatever reason they think fit and so on...

Perhaps you also think that those who entered last year on the understanding that the route goes up the Galibier should have been allowed to negotiate the collapsed tunnel instead of following the modified route.

BenderRodriguez

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It will probably be one of those things like the brethalizer... nobody really carries one in the car in France and I am pretty sure you will be allowed with discs, despite the propaganda

The breathalyser law was never actually put into place. Just about everybody bought breathalyser tests in anticipation of this new law, then shortages caused a rethink, then it was dropped. Everyone I know still has one rolling about in the bottom of the glove box somewhere.

To be honest, those most likely to take no notice of the law over here are Brits. A favourite trick is to register a car on a Sorn notice in the UK then run it in France without re-registering it on French plates, without a French Controle Technique certificate or a valid UK MOT and so on.

Same attitude applies when it comes to riding French sportives, what with people forging medical certificates, using their mates entry and so on. It was much the same when I rode the l'Etape last year, with my pen being filled with Brits who had not a hope in hell of finishing in the time they had put down, but who wanted to be at the head of the field because they knew it was the only way they would beat the cut-offs. A bloody menace a lot of them were too, with or without disc brakes!

ugo.santalucia

BenderRodriguez wrote:

To be honest, those most likely to take no notice of the law over here are Brits. A favourite trick is to register a car on a Sorn notice in the UK then run it in France without re-registering it on French plates, without a French Controle Technique certificate or a valid UK MOT and so on.

Same attitude applies when it comes to riding French sportives, what with people forging medical certificates, using their mates entry and so on. It was much the same when I rode the l'Etape last year, with my pen being filled with Brits who had not a hope in hell of finishing in the time they had put down, but who wanted to be at the head of the field because they knew it was the only way they would beat the cut-offs. A bloody menace a lot of them were too, with or without disc brakes!

You have a point, but banning Joe average who just want to totter around for his favourite charity and has a ticket granted when disc brakes were allowed is totally unfair. Said Joe average maybe only has a bike with disc brakes (yes, there is such thing as a person with n+1 where n = 0) and no money or inclination to get another and maybe has put time, effort in training and convincing friends to part with cash to support him. There are ways to do things properly, like not allowing disc brakes at the front, but only at the very bottom of the last pen, but banning is one step too far... besides, 99% they won't be able to implement the rule on the day, leading to all sorts of complaints from those left out and those left in

paul2718

thecycleclinic wrote:

Oh dear. I suppose then those doing the PR sportive can't use an MTB or modern CX bike then. They all have disc brakes and made up 50% of the field last year. Well a big proportion of the field anyway.

The Paris-Roubaix challenge is defined as a collection of 'randosportives' and "Ces randosportives ne seront pas chronométrées et se dérouleront sur routes ouvertes à la circulation, dans le respect des règles énoncées par le Code de la Route. Seules trois portions de secteurs pavés seront chronométrées. Les temps seront communiqués aux participants, sans classement."

Which I think means "These sportives will not be timed and will be run on roads open to traffic in accordance with the 'Highway Code'. Three sections of cobbles will be timed, these times will be communicated to participants but without placing".

So it's a British style sportive rather than a gran-fondo style race.

Paul

rick_chasey

Performance difference between rim & discs is overstated, regularly.

The performance difference is marginal in the grand scheme of things.

As soon as the UCI lift the weight limit on bikes or reduced they'll become moot anyway; at the moment their bikes are underweight so the extra deadweight they need to put on is basically space for advertising. Why not advertise disc brakes?

It's an over-engineered solution to what isn't really a problem.

If you're heading on a sportive and you're getting nerdy about kit you should be looking at ways to make you bike lighter and stiffer, rather than worrying about heavy disc brakes.

BenderRodriguez

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's an over-engineered solution to what isn't really a problem.

I can see the advantage for mountain bikes, commuter bikes and so on, but I really can't understand why the pros would see discs as being a good idea - apart from all the cash they get from the manufacturers for using them.

With 11 speed we have pretty good interchangeability for service in a race, but unless there is absolute standardisation in relation to disc size, spacing and so on, neutral in-race servicing is going to be a nightmare. On my MTB getting the pads in just the right position requires sub-millimeter precision...

Perhaps the safety issue is overstated, but on the other hand I have cut my finger wide open just by brushing against the edge of the disc on my MTB when cleaning it, so the risk of serious cuts is definitely there. Perhaps a second generation of disc brakes with smooth, round-edge rotors, guards or whatever might address this problem, but given current technology the UCI have taken the right decision.

kajjal

Rick Chasey wrote:

Performance difference between rim & discs is overstated, regularly.

The performance difference is marginal in the grand scheme of things.

As soon as the UCI lift the weight limit on bikes or reduced they'll become moot anyway; at the moment their bikes are underweight so the extra deadweight they need to put on is basically space for advertising. Why not advertise disc brakes?

It's an over-engineered solution to what isn't really a problem.

If you're heading on a sportive and you're getting nerdy about kit you should be looking at ways to make you bike lighter and stiffer, rather than worrying about heavy disc brakes.

Not if you weigh 16 stone and are used to mountain bike disc brakes!!

In the wet for me decent rim brakes and pads are very poor.

BenderRodriguez

Kajjal wrote:

In the wet for me decent rim brakes and pads are very poor.

I use Campag dual pivots, which are I understand are not the most powerful around, and for me it is the level of adhesion between the tyre and the road that is the limiting factor, especially in the wet.

frisbee

BenderRodriguez wrote:

frisbee wrote:

BenderRodriguez wrote:

lets ignore all the other risks on a bike:

11 serrated sprockets...

So, you argue that discs are not a risk because they are protected by a '3 foot guard', but accept that a cassette poses a risk? Rather inconsistent logic there. Disks are also larger and stick out a lot more than the cassette on a bike. A disc also presents a single blade which is more likely to cut than a cassette.

I would disagree with your argument that, because there are already so many other risks one faces when riding a bike, then there is no issue with adding to those risks. This makes about as much sense as saying that because the roads are filled with speeding, texting drivers, one might as well run red lights as well!

No, I'm arguing that you have conveniently ignored far greater risks. I accept all parts of typical road bikes, including bikes with disk brakes, as an acceptable risk. But I wouldn't ride near someone with bags of shopping swinging from their handlebars for example.

But just in case I've fitted my rear disk brake with a dual purpose guard! It's primary purpose is to stop my mudguard from flapping around.

frisbee

paul2718 wrote:

RideLondon have a clear exposition of the bikes that are permissible/forbidden. See http://lmfiles.realbuzz.com/Images/27%2 ... Cycles.pdf although this file hasn't been updated from last year so things may change. No mention of brakes other than quantity.

The RL100 specifically isn't a race and isn't run to BC or UCI regulations, so it's up to the organisers. The Tour of Cambridgeshire however is run to UCI technical regulations, as pointed out in its manual, and therefore disc brakes weren't permitted last year and (presumably) aren't going to be permitted this year.

Paul

Don't remember any technical restrictions bikes in the Tour of Cambridge Gran Fondo. Checking this year's there are still none.

kajjal

BenderRodriguez wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

In the wet for me decent rim brakes and pads are very poor.

I use Campag dual pivots, which are I understand are not the most powerful around, and for me it is the level of adhesion between the tyre and the road that is the limiting factor, especially in the wet.

That is very true, tyres only have so much grip regardless of brake type. The difference with discs is they have more power, consistancy and control which gives better control over braking. Its like comparing drum brakes in older cars to new cars with disc brakes using the same tyres. Same tyres better braking with discs.