French ban Disc brakes

manxshred

http://road.cc/content/news/186893-disc ... pe-du-tour

Cyclists taking part in French sportives, including L’Etape du Tour, hugely popular among British riders, will not be able to do so on bikes equipped with disc brakes after the French cycling federation (FFC) decided to ban them.

This is absolutely crazy. I did the Marmotte 2 years ago on disc brakes.

markhewitt1978

Way to go to exclude a massive number of cyclists from taking part in a non-competitive event. A lot of people will have a disc braked bike, and that's it. It's not like you can just whack rim brakes on, in most instances.

torico

given the number of people, the huge number of crashes, it doesn't matter that its not a competitive event ( even if it is!) they are simply following the UCI rules and to be fair the number of crashes in the etape is quite significant. pretty easy decision for them to make in my eyes

BenderRodriguez

They have done the right thing. There are enough dodgy riders and crashes in events like l'Etape without adding the unnecessary risk posed by riders having something not far off a circular saw blade attached to each end of their bike!

Events like l'Etape are massively oversubscribed anyway, so all this ban effectively does is give riders who might otherwise have not got in a chance of riding.

DeVlaeminck

Hmm, a mate is just organising a club trip to the Ronde Picardie and guess what, his best bike has discs. Seems an unnecessary over reaction to me.

dodgy

This might start to have an effect on prices (of bikes).

kajjal

I am guessing this is an insurance / liability issue. By banning them they have removed the risk, which is especially visible in the media at the moment. In reality there is nothing so far to merit banning discs. Riders take more damage from team cars, animals, weather conditions and spectators compared to discs. It is just an understandable risk averse decision. If they didn't potentially riders could argue given the media coverage why did you take no action ?

markhewitt1978

dodgy wrote:

This might start to have an effect on prices (of bikes).

This is certainly spreading fast and I'm sure a lot of bicycle manufacturers who have disc models and those who are working on bringing out disc models are having urgent meetings right now. It's one thing being a 'pro' issue but when it comes into ameteur sport it's a big problem.

When you're buying your next bike you do not want to have at the back of your mind that you won't be able to take part in that big event you've been training for.

ugo.santalucia

they are French... they eat tripe sausages cooked in mustard and cream sauce... you are supposed to drive around with a breathalizer among other oddities you have to fill your car with.

Something is rotten beyond the Channel

dodgy

I don't enter mass participation events at all, no intention of it either, I'll be buying the best bike for the job and for me, that's a bike with discs.

Watching with interest.

markhewitt1978

dodgy wrote:

I don't enter mass participation events at all, no intention of it either, I'll be buying the best bike for the job and for me, that's a bike with discs.

Watching with interest.

Indeed, but perception is the the thing, if manufacturers thing people aren't going to buy their bikes, they don't make the bikes, so you can't easily buy them, so people don't etc..

BenderRodriguez

ugo.santalucia wrote:

they are French... you are supposed to drive around with a breathalizer among other oddities you have to fill your car with.

That law was scrapped a couple of years ago.

BenderRodriguez

markhewitt1978 wrote:

When you're buying your next bike you do not want to have at the back of your mind that you won't be able to take part in that big event you've been training for.

And anyone who bought a disc-braked road bike ran exactly that risk, given that they were never approved for use in UCI road races.

I can imagine that other organisers will be following the good example set by the FFC. Just imagine a serious injury involving a brake disc and the lawyers getting involved, demanding to know why they were allowed in the event when the UCI had barred them on safety grounds...

Yes other hazards exist, but what add unnecessary ones? And who can seriously argue that something like this doesn't pose an additional hazard?

homers_double

God only knows what would happen if someone trapped a finger in a spinning aero spoked wheel...

markhewitt1978

BenderRodriguez wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

When you're buying your next bike you do not want to have at the back of your mind that you won't be able to take part in that big event you've been training for.

And anyone who bought a disc-braked road bike ran exactly that risk, given that they were never approved for use in UCI road races.

Yes; races. Non-competitive sportives are a different matter. Personally my road bike uses rim brakes, and the bike I'm currently coveting also has rim brakes. But I do have at the back of my mind eventually getting a bike with discs maybe

ugo.santalucia

BenderRodriguez wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

they are French... you are supposed to drive around with a breathalizer among other oddities you have to fill your car with.

That law was scrapped a couple of years ago.

When you board a P&O ferry they still try to flog you the brethalizer as "compulsory", so I don't know where the law is. They should also give it a cut trying to rhyme every message on the motorways displays. Anyway, they like to make big dramas about rather pointless things and they are collecting presidents who seem more interested in knickers than in politics... A ban on disc brakes in mass sportives just reflect this attitude to act on impulse on insignificant issues

paul2718

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Yes; races. Non-competitive sportives are a different matter. Personally my road bike uses rim brakes, and the bike I'm currently coveting also has rim brakes. But I do have at the back of my mind eventually getting a bike with discs maybe

The Etape du Tour is competitive. For one they give you a time and position both overall and in your age group. And for two your doctor has to sign a statement to the effect that you have no medical condition that precludes participation in competitive cycling events. The Marmotte is similar, I think.

It will be interesting to see what the Tour of Cambridgeshire organisers decide, and if ever there was an event where you don't need brakes at all, it's that one.

Paul

ugo.santalucia

BenderRodriguez wrote:

I can imagine that other organisers will be following the good example set by the FFC. Just imagine a serious injury involving a brake disc and the lawyers getting involved, demanding to know why they were allowed in the event when the UCI had barred them on safety grounds...

And who is going to pay for a forensic investigation that points the finger without any shadow of a doubt to a disc rotor and nothing else... c'mon, let's be serious. The UCI is NOT a serious organisation, it has NEVER been a serious organisation... for years they covered their stars, then they decided that one had to ride Eddie Merckx bike around a track to beat his record, then they invented the PRO tour, where teams that don't give a toss about a given race are forced to enter it and teams who would love to enter it cannot enter it.... the UCI is a joke and it has always been such

darkhairedlord

Trust the French, putting the aesthetic before the practical. And quite right too.

frisbee

BenderRodriguez wrote:

They have done the right thing. There are enough dodgy riders and crashes in events like l'Etape without adding the unnecessary risk posed by riders having something not far off a circular saw blade attached to each end of their bike!

Events like l'Etape are massively oversubscribed anyway, so all this ban effectively does is give riders who might otherwise have not got in a chance of riding.

Using inadequate rim brakes is an unnecessary risk.

Have you actually used a circular saw? I don't think you would be able to cut much with a 3 foot guard next to a 6 inch saw blade.

And lets ignore all the other risks on a bike:

30+ aero spokes
11 serrated sprockets
2 serrated chain rings
2 protruding handle bar tips
2 brake levers
2 pedals
etc.

BenderRodriguez

frisbee wrote:

Using inadequate rim brakes is an unnecessary risk.

I have never come across a pair of 'inadequate' rim brakes in my life, at least on a road bike. All of them have easily being able to lock the wheel up. Just look at Campagnolo who offer a single pivot rear brake because their dual-pivot version is effectively over-powered for the application.

I am not saying that disc brakes have no worthwhile applications, but for road-based events where large numbers of riders are riding together at high speeds, as they stand they are both unnecessary and a hazard. I am sure that the bike manufacturers will be along shortly offering an appropriately expensive solution such as covers, probably in carbon fibre.

Bottom line is that disc brakes have never been formally approved by the UCI for road racing, and most people would see sense in avoiding unapproved technology, just in case it ends up being banned. Similarly, most people would probably choose a frame that has passed the UCI approval tests over one that hadn't.

When the use of disc brakes was a 'grey area' the manufacturers could get away with pretending that it was only a matter of time before they were approved. Now the UCI has taken a stand the organisers are more or less duty bound to follow, if only because of concerns relating to insurance and liability, just as they do with regards the compulsory use of helmets, the banning of the use of aero bars and so on, all of which are a result of following the UCI's example. If there is fault here, it lies at the feet of the UCI.

markhewitt1978

BenderRodriguez wrote:

I have never come across a pair of 'inadequate' rim brakes in my life

Tektro calipers with tektro blocks paired with 5700 levers (as was standard on my Madone 2.1), so ineffective you might as well try using the bottom of your shoes to slow down.

BenderRodriguez

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Tektro calipers with tektro blocks paired with 5700 levers (as was standard on my Madone 2.1), so ineffective you might as well try using the bottom of your shoes to slow down.

Just fit decent quality parts. Problem solved without resort to discs, let alone the cost of buying a disk-specific bike!

ugo.santalucia

Only a small minority of folks who enter the Etape do it as a race. What they could do is to allow those to start first, using UCI allowed bikes, then the rest start in a second wave and use what they like... tricycles, disc brakes, fat bikes, recumbent or high wheels...

This way they can show to be inclusive, rather than exclusive and still keep the "race" UCI legal

Problem solved, leave it to the Italians to sort things... :-)

BenderRodriguez

frisbee wrote:

BenderRodriguez wrote:

lets ignore all the other risks on a bike:

11 serrated sprockets...

So, you argue that discs are not a risk because they are protected by a '3 foot guard', but accept that a cassette poses a risk? Rather inconsistent logic there. Disks are also larger and stick out a lot more than the cassette on a bike. A disc also presents a single blade which is more likely to cut than a cassette.

I would disagree with your argument that, because there are already so many other risks one faces when riding a bike, then there is no issue with adding to those risks. This makes about as much sense as saying that because the roads are filled with speeding, texting drivers, one might as well run red lights as well!

BenderRodriguez

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Only a small minority of folks who enter the Etape do it as a race. What they could do is to allow those to start first, using UCI allowed bikes, then the rest start in a second wave and use what they like... tricycles, disc brakes, fat bikes, recumbent or high wheels...

Except most of the crashes in these events seem to occur in the 'donkey' end of the field...

markhewitt1978

BenderRodriguez wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Tektro calipers with tektro blocks paired with 5700 levers (as was standard on my Madone 2.1), so ineffective you might as well try using the bottom of your shoes to slow down.

Just fit decent quality parts. Problem solved without resort to discs, let alone the cost of buying a disk-specific bike!

Which is exactly what I did, and no more problems, but your implication is that all rim brakes are good, which isn't the case. Anyway that's orthogonal.

dodgy

I've had plenty of rim braked bikes with good stopping power. Not so great after a bit of rain and then debris starts to accumulate in the blocks. If I lived in Spain or somewhere dry, I'd probably carry on riding rim braked bikes.

But I don't.

markhewitt1978

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Only a small minority of folks who enter the Etape do it as a race. What they could do is to allow those to start first, using UCI allowed bikes, then the rest start in a second wave and use what they like... tricycles, disc brakes, fat bikes, recumbent or high wheels...

This way they can show to be inclusive, rather than exclusive and still keep the "race" UCI legal

Problem solved, leave it to the Italians to sort things... :-)

The type of thing they've been doing with marathons and fun runs since forever!

ugo.santalucia

BenderRodriguez wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Only a small minority of folks who enter the Etape do it as a race. What they could do is to allow those to start first, using UCI allowed bikes, then the rest start in a second wave and use what they like... tricycles, disc brakes, fat bikes, recumbent or high wheels...

Except most of the crashes in these events seem to occur in the 'donkey' end of the field...

My point is that you want to be seen as being inclusive, or your great event will not last very long. There are plenty of folks who have a non UCI compliant bicycles and it would be unfair (or shall I say stupid) to let them out. Flat handlebars, mountain bikes, CX bikes... as pointed out by other user... it's a bit like leaving the folks dressed as gorillas out of the London Marathon... yes, they are dangerous to themselves (overheating/exhaustion) and others (could fall over others), but it's how the event manages to be successful... it's not about the couple of Kenyans who finish ahead of the pack.. it's about the obese, the fancy dressed ones and those on crutches

BenderRodriguez

ugo.santalucia wrote:

My point is that you want to be seen as being inclusive, or your great event will not last very long.

When it comes to events like l'Etape and the Marmotte the main problem seems to be excluding people due to the excess number of entries. Perhaps the next logical step would to require people to qualify, as is already the case with events like the Boston Marathon.

Anyhow, all the debate about how much of an actual risk discs pose is essentially a side-issue. Now the UCI have effectively banned them, at least in their current form, organisers who do not follow their lead might find themselves on very shaky ground in the event of a serious injury caused by their use, just as they are pretty much duty-bound to require riders to wear helmets, bar the use of aero handlebars and so on. Whatever the rights and wrongs, this ban is ultimately due to the actions of the UCI, not 'the French'.