Working towards 20mph

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Comments

  • AK_jnr
    AK_jnr Posts: 717
    To throw another example in the mix about how terrain and weather can have a major impact.
    In January 60 miles at 20mph in Mallorca took 210 watts where as a few weeks ago after work 60 miles back home at 20mph average took 230 watts.

    But then it took 260 watts last week to average 19.7 over only 35 miles.
  • jgsi
    jgsi Posts: 5,062
    Bear in mind, this is Beginners.. not many likely to have access to a power meter.
    Exertion is the bit that tells you, you are having to work that much harder.
    Obsessions with numbers begin when you actually safety pin one or two to the back of your jersey.
  • burnthesheep
    burnthesheep Posts: 675
    Another update......

    Same speed, but further. 2 hours now. I'm up to about 35 miles at a time and getting closer to 100 per week.

    Still on toe-cages for whatever that's worth. I feel I may change to clipless as I don't feel having to reach down to pull a strap loose all the time is too safe. It's getting annoying doing it a dozen times on a ride. I did swallow my pride and got a full road outfit. My backside is thanking me.

    I'm almost down a full notch on my belt size too.

    I am seeing further the concept of an average being foolish. Around here it isn't even flat enough for long enough to gauge a flats average. And almost every 2 miles is an intersection. So, slow down, look, wait, cross, accelerate. Repeat. The phone never even has time to autopause, so I lose about 10 minutes per ride to waiting.

    I think something good for now would be to try to increase the longest distance in one day and also increase it for a week.

    I think for my birthday I'll ask the wife permission to set out for the day to try a century, at a slower pace. I feel that if I backed off a full mph I can make it much further.
  • igsta
    igsta Posts: 56
    I don't know many possibly anyone who could do that solo! Personally I found it much easier to set targets using Strava etc for local hills.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    burnthesheep wrote:
    Another update......

    Same speed, but further. 2 hours now. I'm up to about 35 miles at a time and getting closer to 100 per week.

    Still on toe-cages for whatever that's worth. I feel I may change to clipless as I don't feel having to reach down to pull a strap loose all the time is too safe. It's getting annoying doing it a dozen times on a ride. I did swallow my pride and got a full road outfit. My backside is thanking me.

    I'm almost down a full notch on my belt size too.

    I am seeing further the concept of an average being foolish. Around here it isn't even flat enough for long enough to gauge a flats average. And almost every 2 miles is an intersection. So, slow down, look, wait, cross, accelerate. Repeat. The phone never even has time to autopause, so I lose about 10 minutes per ride to waiting.

    I think something good for now would be to try to increase the longest distance in one day and also increase it for a week.

    I think for my birthday I'll ask the wife permission to set out for the day to try a century, at a slower pace. I feel that if I backed off a full mph I can make it much further.

    I would get some longer rides in before the century As over 2 hours you can practise refuelling. I would also look at tweaking the route to reduce intersections

    Why not see how fast you can ride your original target of 60 miles
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    I would agree with that, hold off on the 100 miles for the moment.

    A good target would be 100km (62 miles) if you can start doing that distance regularly, and start increasing your speed, then you'll be in a good place.

    Basically if you can do 100km comfortably you can do 100miles too as the principles are the same you just spend longer in the saddle.
  • apreading
    apreading Posts: 4,535
    Yep - once you can do 50/60 miles comfortably then you will have addressed all the things like endurance techniques, getting your bike setup and saddle etc just right for you and the physical endurance.

    After that its just about fuelling properly and getting used to longer in the saddle (the mental side as well as physical).

    Just be careful that your step up to 100 miles doesnt suddenly include lots more climbing - its that which will get you rather than the distance...
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    In the real world, I cycle through this segment every morning and occasionally time myself with a stopwatch (not on Strava, sorry!)... my best time would be within the top 100 with an average of just over 21 mph... the tarmac is perfect, the gradients are very slight, one could say it's almost flat, I normally use a 46 x 12 and 46 x 14 and the best times are done with a tail wind... as you can see not many people can average significantly more than 20 mph... and this is for just over 4 miles... imagine doing 60!

    https://www.strava.com/segments/2159844
    left the forum March 2023
  • drlodge
    drlodge Posts: 4,826
    20mph for 3 hours/60 miles would be Time Trial pace for me, and require a suitable road to avoid stop/starts. Last couple of weeks I've been out on a Thursday evening giving it some gas, managed to average over 18mph over a couple of hours, which is pretty good for me. No way could I manage 20 average without the right conditions, oh and me being in tip top shape.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • singleton
    singleton Posts: 2,523
    I don't think I'm anywhere close to 60 miles in 3 hours - just to throw in another data point.

    Some of us did a group ride the other evening and we covered 30.1 miles in 1h32m which I make to be an average of 19.63mph. The estimate average power on strava was 195w.

    It was a nice evening and we did a loop with total elevation of about 215m - some bits were lumpy and other bits were quite flat. It was a regular road loop so there were a few times waiting for cars and one small wrong turn which cost a little time as we turned round.

    I can't seriously see myself maintaing close to this speed or faster on my own though...
  • ForumNewbie
    ForumNewbie Posts: 1,664
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    In the real world, I cycle through this segment every morning and occasionally time myself with a stopwatch (not on Strava, sorry!)... my best time would be within the top 100 with an average of just over 21 mph... the tarmac is perfect, the gradients are very slight, one could say it's almost flat, I normally use a 46 x 12 and 46 x 14 and the best times are done with a tail wind... as you can see not many people can average significantly more than 20 mph... and this is for just over 4 miles... imagine doing 60!

    https://www.strava.com/segments/2159844
    I'm surprised the averages are not higher for that 4 mile segment, as I think I could probably average nearly 20mph on that segment with the right conditions if I pushed it, and I'm usually very slow. No way could I do 60 miles at anywhere near 20mph average, but I'm sure a lot of young fast club riders could do a flat solo 60 miles at an average of over 20mph if they tried.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    ForumNewbie wrote:
    but I'm sure a lot of young fast club riders could do a flat solo 60 miles at an average of over 20mph if they tried.

    You think, but it's probably not the case...
    left the forum March 2023
  • sebbyp
    sebbyp Posts: 106
    Of course a young club rider can do 100K at 20mph!, especially if its flat! I'm just getting into serious training and managed 19.5 for 100k with 850m of elevation on a Alu bike with non aero wheels on Sunday.
    I see 100 Miles at 20mph as the benchmark of a good rider
  • ForumNewbie
    ForumNewbie Posts: 1,664
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    ForumNewbie wrote:
    but I'm sure a lot of young fast club riders could do a flat solo 60 miles at an average of over 20mph if they tried.

    You think, but it's probably not the case...
    The results of a 50 mile Circuit of the Dales hilly Time Trial below show that the top 60 riders did it in 2 hrs 30 mins or better, therefore at least 20 mph average, with the top ones averaging over 25 mph:
    https://www.velouk.net/2012/04/01/resul ... ime-trial/
    So yes, I do think a lot of young fast club riders could do a flat 60 miles at an average of over 20 mph.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    1) a time trial is not a ride, which leads to point 2

    2) as I said 20 pages ago, it depends how you measure an average... a Garmin does measure a corrected average, which is NOT an average

    A PRO training ride might be around 20 mph or just over
    left the forum March 2023
  • Dodger747
    Dodger747 Posts: 305
    Unless most people live in the countryside, how does a city dweller average 20mph? Getting out of the city etc kills my average speeds [not that I care], unless people don't start recording their ride until they get to the fast bits?
    VO2 Max - 79 ml/kg/min
    W/kg - 4.9
  • Dodger747
    Dodger747 Posts: 305
    sebbyp wrote:
    I see 100 Miles at 20mph as the benchmark of a good rider

    :lol::lol::lol:
    VO2 Max - 79 ml/kg/min
    W/kg - 4.9
  • ForumNewbie
    ForumNewbie Posts: 1,664
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    1) a time trial is not a ride, which leads to point 2
    It's a solo cycle ride. I was just showing that as an example why some non-pro cyclists would be able to ride 60 flat miles averaging 20 mph.

    However even although 60 miles at 20mph average would be impressive, to me it's not as impressive as the guy that did that Everest equivalent by cycling up and down that mountain 8 times or so. But saying that, you didn't think that was a cycle ride either.
  • MiddleRinger
    MiddleRinger Posts: 678
    ForumNewbie wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    1) a time trial is not a ride, which leads to point 2
    It's a solo cycle ride. I was just showing that as an example why some non-pro cyclists would be able to ride 60 flat miles averaging 20 mph.

    Given a flat enough course with favourable winds, fresh legs, minimal slowing points or traffic lights and I could ride a solo 60 miles averaging 20mph and I am by no means fast (I can get fairly aero though). On a normal ride though? Wouldn't happen for me.

    And no I didn't read the previous few pages of this thread...
    ~ ~ How fast is fast enough? ~ ~ ~ ~ Tempo Cyclist - Tasmania ~ ~
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    ForumNewbie wrote:
    But saying that, you didn't think that was a cycle ride either.

    Climbing per se is not difficult... 8 K of climbing is a lot of it, but it's nothing otherwordly... it's when you throw in bad weather and impossible gradients that things get complicated... neither make me think of Sa Calobra or Majorca TBH.

    This year I have done a few rides with 3 K of climbing and the ones in good weather didn't feel hard or even particularly hilly... I have also done rides with 1K of climbing and wind and those felt a lot harder

    What I am trying to say is: you go for a flat ride and average 200 Watt because you push hard or you go up and down the same climb 13 times and average 200 Watt... what's the difference?

    Big gradients will make you dig into the non aerobic, but a 7% climb won't (unless you go around with a 39 x 21 cassette to be a real macho)... it's about watt, not elevation... you can train all winter in Holland and be awesome in the Alps in summer
    left the forum March 2023
  • bernithebiker
    bernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    ForumNewbie wrote:
    But saying that, you didn't think that was a cycle ride either.

    Climbing per se is not difficult... 8 K of climbing is a lot of it, but it's nothing otherwordly... it's when you throw in bad weather and impossible gradients that things get complicated... neither make me think of Sa Calobra or Majorca TBH.

    This year I have done a few rides with 3 K of climbing and the ones in good weather didn't feel hard or even particularly hilly... I have also done rides with 1K of climbing and wind and those felt a lot harder

    What I am trying to say is: you go for a flat ride and average 200 Watt because you push hard or you go up and down the same climb 13 times and average 200 Watt... what's the difference?

    Big gradients will make you dig into the non aerobic, but a 7% climb won't (unless you go around with a 39 x 21 cassette to be a real macho)... it's about watt, not elevation... you can train all winter in Holland and be awesome in the Alps in summer

    Just for your info, there was snow on the Puig Major road in March this year and temps just above zero, and there are some hills in Majorca that have sustained sections >15%.

    How do you know the Sa Calobra guy didn't have windy conditions like you did?

    I can assure you most people find climbing Sa Calobra harder than riding on the flat, no matter what wattage they sustain.

    Who says you're not 'non-aerobic' climbing Sa Calobra? I can guarantee you I am when I do it. It's a question of the effort you put in surely? And gearing.

    And by the way, most of the Dutchies I've met in Majorca and the Alps, who train on the flat, are all at sea when it comes to the hills.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    bernithebiker wrote:

    Just for your info, there was snow on the Puig Major road in March this year and temps just above zero, and there are some hills in Majorca that have sustained sections >15%.

    How do you know the Sa Calobra guy didn't have windy conditions like you did?

    I suppose if one is interested there must be a weather station nearby with records of that particular day
    bernithebiker wrote:
    Who says you're not 'non-aerobic' climbing Sa Calobra? I can guarantee you I am when I do it. It's a question of the effort you put in surely? And gearing.

    Sure, do we have to assume the guy went full gas up with big gears for 13 times? The VAM he recorded would suggest otherwise... of course he could have used an old Swiss army bicycle or a Brompton too, or filled his tyres with water or carry a Newfoundland puppy on his shoulders... is it going too far to assume that he didn't?
    bernithebiker wrote:
    And by the way, most of the Dutchies I've met in Majorca and the Alps, who train on the flat, are all at sea when it comes to the hills.

    Some will some won't... the point is that you don't need to train on the hills to be good at climbing steady gradients, you just need a solid power output and adequate gears... I know people who hardly ever go out of the M25 and yet climb like goats

    The bigger peicture I am trying to make in this thread and the other is that not all is just as it seems.... in the same way as riding for 3 hours at 20 mph is quite hard in the real world, climbing 8800 mt in a day is not necessarily as hard as it seems on paper... it depends on a number of factors... give you examples

    Last year I did the Etape du Dales 2900 mt of climbing... strong winds all day... 9 hours 15 minutes and one of the hardest day I had on a bike... physically and mentally

    This year I did the Fred Whitton 3300 mt of climbing including several 25-30% climbs... 7 hours 58 and I wouldn't put it anywhere near the previous... physically I was strong pretty much all the way, mentally I was focussed and positive the all day

    Two years ago I had to climb off the bike in the middle of the very flat Carrefour de l'Arbre and take a 10 minutes rest as I was mentally drained and physically shattered... a combination of heat and cobbles... I think during the all day I put the small ring once

    There is more than just numbers and statistics
    left the forum March 2023
  • bernithebiker
    bernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    So to summarise, all the stuff you did was true, hardcore cycling, kind of like a Rapha advert, but the guy who climbed SC 13 times, a bit of a wussy?



    Oh and the bit of advice about not needing to do any hillclimbing to train to climb hills? I think I'll file that in my 'recycling' section.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    bernithebiker wrote:
    So to summarise, all the stuff you did was true, hardcore cycling, kind of like a Rapha advert, but the guy who climbed SC 13 times, a bit of a wussy?

    You are just trying to stir things up... I never said that... all I said is that numbers on paper don't tell the all truth... or if you prefer you are missing some other key numbers... I said I had rough but flat days as well as easy but very hilly days, hence you can't assume that going 20 mph on a flat will be easy or that climbing 8800 mt will be hard... everything needs to be put into context... I am trying to treat you like an intelligent person, if you prefer to be treated differently, just say so...

    The bit when you compare me to a Rapha advert is quite insulting, but I will not get offended this time... :mrgreen:


    bernithebiker wrote:
    Oh and the bit of advice about not needing to do any hillclimbing to train to climb hills? I think I'll file that in my 'recycling' section.
    Don't take my word for it, ask any decent trainer and he will tell you that to train for power you don't need to do hill climbing... that is one way to do it, not the only way to do it... if you have the power and you are not a beef you will climb well. It's Watts/Kg... the way you build up to a big number is irrelevant... most will fin hill climbing useful, others don't have the geography and will get there in another way and that works too
    left the forum March 2023
  • drlodge
    drlodge Posts: 4,826
    Went out last night for about an hour, not quite full gas (so I guess this is "tempo" rather than "threshold"??), but for me a pretty quick ride. Averaged 18.6mph over 17 miles with 748ft of climbing. Hit some traffic lights and junctions, a couple of hilly bits, the normal thing. Never gonna get to 20mph average unless in a group or I break myself.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    drlodge wrote:
    Went out last night for about an hour, not quite full gas (so I guess this is "tempo" rather than "threshold"??), but for me a pretty quick ride. Averaged 18.6mph over 17 miles with 748ft of climbing. Hit some traffic lights and junctions, a couple of hilly bits, the normal thing. Never gonna get to 20mph average unless in a group or I break myself.

    Yet, I am pretty sure you can do an hour time trial at 20 mph.. context is everything
    left the forum March 2023
  • drlodge
    drlodge Posts: 4,826
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Yet, I am pretty sure you can do an hour time trial at 20 mph.. context is everything

    Indeed, I expect I can. Did a 10 in 26.40 so expect on a flatish course without the need to stop, I can do an hour at 20mph+. I certainly could about 25 years ago :roll:

    A couple of weeks back I did the club's "hilly" TT route, averaged 18.8mph for the 10 mile segment, which would be quicker of course had it been flat and I was actually TTing.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • bernithebiker
    bernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    bernithebiker wrote:
    So to summarise, all the stuff you did was true, hardcore cycling, kind of like a Rapha advert, but the guy who climbed SC 13 times, a bit of a wussy?

    You are just trying to stir things up... I never said that... all I said is that numbers on paper don't tell the all truth... or if you prefer you are missing some other key numbers... I said I had rough but flat days as well as easy but very hilly days, hence you can't assume that going 20 mph on a flat will be easy or that climbing 8800 mt will be hard... everything needs to be put into context... I am trying to treat you like an intelligent person, if you prefer to be treated differently, just say so...

    The bit when you compare me to a Rapha advert is quite insulting, but I will not get offended this time... :mrgreen:


    bernithebiker wrote:
    Oh and the bit of advice about not needing to do any hillclimbing to train to climb hills? I think I'll file that in my 'recycling' section.
    Don't take my word for it, ask any decent trainer and he will tell you that to train for power you don't need to do hill climbing... that is one way to do it, not the only way to do it... if you have the power and you are not a beef you will climb well. It's Watts/Kg... the way you build up to a big number is irrelevant... most will fin hill climbing useful, others don't have the geography and will get there in another way and that works too
    I'm just surprised how easily you dismiss 8700m of climbing whilst pointing at your rides of 3000m, which, lets not forget are 3 times less.
    Climbing is not like riding on the flat, even if you try and keep the same power and cadence.
    Nothing can prepare a novice 100% for a climb like Alpe d Huez, or Puig Major.
    Why are there so many "help me prepare for the Etape" threads?
    Climbing is not just watts/kg. There is a lot of techique involved, both physical and mental. The best climbers i know are cyclists that climb a lot.
    And i hear the pros have been known to train in the mountains- why bother? Why not just stay in Belgium or Holland?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    bernithebiker wrote:
    I'm just surprised how easily you dismiss 8700m of climbing whilst pointing at your rides of 3000m, which, lets not forget are 3 times less.
    Climbing is not like riding on the flat, even if you try and keep the same power and cadence.
    Nothing can prepare a novice 100% for a climb like Alpe d Huez, or Puig Major.
    Why are there so many "help me prepare for the Etape" threads?
    Climbing is not just watts/kg. There is a lot of techique involved, both physical and mental. The best climbers i know are cyclists that climb a lot.
    And i hear the pros have been known to train in the mountains- why bother? Why not just stay in Belgium or Holland?

    I don't dismiss, just don't feel the need to hype it as a great performance... I have already pointed out in the other thread how hundreds of cyclists enter the Tour du Mont Blanc every year, so it's not an epic feat by any stretch of imagination. Have I been tempted to enter the TduMB? To be honest yes I have, but there are some logistical issues as well as I am not sure I have the time to prepare for it, hence I make do with events that last 8 hours instead of 16. Could I do it tomorrow? Probably, but not in the way I would like to do it

    I am not even comparing it with my meagre 3000 mt of climbing, I don't rate myself very much, hence if someone does better I don't necessarily think he is a superhero... I am well aware of where I stand, which is in the top 25-30% of folks who enter 100 miles events... there are tens of thousands of people fitter tham me in this country.... I am aware of what's out there and how many people do what. If we opened a thread every time someone does 8800 mt of climbing in a day, there'll be hundreds of them, it's not a remarkable feat in this day and age, period.

    PROs train in the mountains because it makes sense to do so... they can get feedback that otherwise need to be simulated... having time and money why not? But if you don't have time or money, then you can prepare somewhere else and that works as well. All the best climbers have both time and money to train, so it's obvious they choose the former... but you will find among the top 10% finishers in the Etape or Marmotte people who live and train in London or Holland all year round

    I often travel to italy in spring and climb a lot, as my parents live by the Alps... average outings are 20-30 mt of climbing per Km... do I climb better on my way back? No, I still have my paltry 900-1100 VAM
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    How about these more meaningful rides then? What badge should they get?

    https://www.strava.com/activities/344696014

    Note the elapsed time of this, he spent 2 minutes off the bike....

    https://www.strava.com/activities/162942571

    This ain't bad either, over 2 hours quicker than your man

    https://www.strava.com/activities/152874702

    This is a Brit, you can spot Hardknott in his avatar

    https://www.strava.com/activities/156138958

    Or a more steady one

    https://www.strava.com/activities/400880103

    The morning ride went a bit long

    https://www.strava.com/activities/64854246
    left the forum March 2023

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